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 Post subject: Lesbian death/murder on Law and Order
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 1:21 pm 
quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
They certainly have. There have been other episodes they've done that were sympathetic to the gay community and portrayed gay people in a positive light. If I remember correctly, Chris Noth's character was written out of the series by having him punch a homophobic city councilman, too.

So while I'll agree that this particular episode was a pretty lousy depiction of its lesbian characters, I don't think it's an indication that the series as a whole is homophobic. Hey, everyone gets something wrong sometimes.


Yeah it was something like that, I knew he punched out someone and that is how he was written off.

Yeah Law and Order just does every side and of course sometimes were not gonna like it as much as other episodes.

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 Post subject: Lesbian death/murder on Law and Order
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 1:51 pm 
I saw the episode as well and figured out the "whondunit" by the half way point. I know this ep did not cast a flattering light on the lbgt community but as has been said by others, the show has supported the community many times in the past.

One thing to ponder about Law & Order before you get up in arms regarding the portrayl of the lbgt community on last night's ep...Most, if not all of L&O's stories come right from the headlines of the nation's newspapers. I don't know how stringent they are in keeping to the details but I have seen quite a few eps based closely on true stories.

What I mean is, if the producers and writers stuck to the details of this case then it is not their fault that the lbgt community was depicted in an unflattering way. It was the way the actual case presented itself.

*turns and leaps back into lurkdom*

------------------
"Lord what fools these mortals be."



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 Post subject: Lesbian death/murder on Law and Order
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 2:20 pm 
I know that sometimes the law in the show may be a bit goffy. I am sure that if you are a lawyer thats this must drive you wacko. How ever it first and for most a tv show ment to entertain us and perhaps makes looks at things we would not normal look at. I think it does this well most of the time.

If you would like an episod that is more up lifting about gays then you should write the show and tell them. You should get all of your freinds to do the same. I know that they listen. You could post and ask other kittens to do the same.

The recent dog malling case makes history about same sex partners that would make a great show.

I can see why you would be not happy with the show. How ever I saw it as some of the others did and not as you did. That does not mean you are wrong. Thinking back I can understand why you would feel that way.

MrsCapt Murdock



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 Post subject: Lesbian death/murder on Law and Order
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 2:53 pm 
quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:

So while I'll agree that this particular episode was a pretty lousy depiction of its lesbian characters [/B]


I have to disagree on that statement. If anything i think the episode showed how hard it is for lgbt teenagers. You have a girl who would rather spend her life trying to be miss popular (head cheerleader,etc.) and trying to be perfect for her parents than exploring who she is as a person. She felt the need to ruin a perfectly good relationship not because she's some heinous evil lesbian, but because she was too scared of being rejected by the people around her.

All right, i'm crawling back into my hole.
peace and blessings

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 Post subject: Lesbian death/murder on Law and Order
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:27 pm 
I had a feeling kittens would have something to say about that episode, and I was thinking about creating a thread if I didn't find one. Good thing someone else did, though, as I wasn't sure how to start it off.

The episode made me uneasy with how insensitive the police and DAs seemed to be, but I think their insensitivity mostly stemmed from their inabilty to pick up on the possibilty of a closet lesbian relationship and on the probability that she was hiding it from her parents because of their homophobia. To the DAs her being gay wasn't a big deal--just that she concealed a relationship with the victim and impeded the investigation and may have had motive, as with a boyfriend who conceals his relationship with a dead girl--so they didn't think about the possiblity that her parents might not know and might be quite against it. The DAs weren't anti-gay, just unexpectedly naive.

I don't always figure out L&O twists before they are revealed, but this time I figured out pretty quickly that the friend Alissa was probably her girlfriend and was reluctant to reveal that--at least in front of her friends/parents/etc. Then when they first read the email ("People think it's about sex, but it's not.") I said, uh-huh, she's talking about a lesbian relationship... now they're going to figure it out, right? And then they went off on that website tangent (because Alissa gave the false lead, and I said, she obviously doesn't want to discuss what it's really about with her friend(s) right there; can't the police see that?). Of course, I didn't assume the relationship had anything to do with the actual crime, but I figured it'd tie into the investigation somehow. They made it the final twist, though a lot of kittens probably figured out the relationship a lot sooner than the police did. Her parent's homophobic reaction wasn't terribly surprising (given the way Alissa was acting), except to the DAs apparently. It's sad (and rather disgusting) that such attitudes still exist in the world and lead to so much grief for decent people. Maybe they were trying to show that with this episode.

quote:
Originally posted by rocketdyke:
i happened to watch this episode of law and order by accident. i sat with my roommate and we were both horrified, both being lawyers in the criminal justice system. im sorry, but the way she explained what happened, that wasnt murder, id be surprised if they could even prove it was manslaughter. it was an *accident*.

What did they end up charging her with after she finally said what happened? Did I miss them offering a plea on a charge like involuntary manslaughter (is there something less than that that'd make sense such as some form of assault?), or did they not mention any final charge after her story?

While it was disturbing that they used the threat of effectively outing her to blackmail her into talking, they had reason to believe it was a deliberate killing and they could hardly let her off the hook just because pursuing things would cause exactly what she allegedly tried to prevent by the alleged murder in the first place. The problem was she wasn't talking, because of that same fear (which I noticed when the police were interviewing her long before they figured it out), so they didn't know what had actually happened.

I would like to think that once they found out what happened (and given that they couldn't prove it was more deliberate than she explained) that they were fair in any charge they offered for a plea. If the way she explained it (she argued with her not to press charges on the sexual assault because the publicity would out Alissa to her homophobic parents, shoved her a little, got slapped hard and shoved hard in response) would not qualify as a crime (under the TV interpretation of the law) then I think they would have dropped the charges.

quote:
and while they may have been able to use the "motivation" she had to kill the gf, which would have probably helped them make a case against her, since the jury would probably be somewhat amenable to thinking something is wrong with being gay, i think its bordering on unethical for prosecutors who have a duty to be objective and fair to basically blackmail this girl into taking a plea based on her shame and fear about who she is. i also thought this was a terrible message to send to anyone in america who thinks that this show is any kind of accurate representation of how the legal system works and just bolstered the idea that there is something wrong with being gay.

I did not get the impression that they wanted to coerce a plea to a higher crime than she had committed (that would seem unethical and the sort of thing you see from the prosecutors on The Practice, not L&O), they just believed it could have been murder. Looking at it one way, they were being sensitive to her family situation (once they realized it) and offered her a way out of a trial to get to the truth by admitting to the truth about the incident. In order to get to the truth without her relationship coming out, they had to make the threat of a trial to get her to finally admit what had actually happened.

In the end they didn't out her to her parents and friends (beyond what the parents' own denial covered in their earlier probing), and the truth was that she is not an "evil murdering lesbian". The problem is, a lot of people who are quick to condemn homosexuality probably won't pick up on such subtleties and will instead see this episode as justification for their attitude. But then, they see the sun rising as justification for their beliefs, so...

In all it's a disturbing episode for the obliviousness of the usually-observant police, the slight naivete of the DAs in not figuring it out before unwittingly outing her to her homophobic parents (who seemed to have enough denial to forget it), and the potentially-inferred suggestion that being gay is a dirty secret to be kept hidden at all costs, even murder. But upon deeper consideration it seems that this inferrence is drawn incorrectly and rather that what the episode was really implying is that homophobia is the evil for creating that pressure to keep it a secret. Of course, it may be too subtle and ambiguous to sink in with anyone who didn't already believe that, but maybe some people who are in the ignorant middle ground will give the issue(s) some thought and come to a more enlightened understanding. This episode should at least increase some awareness (and maybe understanding) of some of the problems and pressures faced by LBGQT kids, and I hope that would have a generally positive long-term effect on society.

Edited to add:

quote:
Originally posted by Princess Willow:
One thing to ponder about Law & Order before you get up in arms regarding the portrayl of the lbgt community on last night's ep...Most, if not all of L&O's stories come right from the headlines of the nation's newspapers. I don't know how stringent they are in keeping to the details but I have seen quite a few eps based closely on true stories.

Some episodes are inspired by actual cases, but the show itself is fiction. They never stick exactly to the facts of a real case (no originality there). Also, the episodes that are inspired by particular publicised cases usually have an extra disclaimer at the beginning about "while inspired by actual events, blah blah blah fiction blah blah blah, no similarity yadda yadda yadda". I don't think this one had that disclaimer.

It still might have been inspired by a real case (just not a nation-wide famous one), but it could also have been just pure invention based on things that do occur and could lead to a death. I think a lot of their cases are probably original constructions drawn only indirectly (if at all) from a variety of real-world cases without focusing on any particular case.

[This message has been edited by Cipher (edited March 28, 2002).]quote:quote:quote:



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 Post subject: Lesbian death/murder on Law and Order
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:47 pm 
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. CaptMurdock:
I know that sometimes the law in the show may be a bit goffy. I am sure that if you are a lawyer thats this must drive you wacko. How ever it first and for most a tv show ment to entertain us and perhaps makes looks at things we would not normal look at. I think it does this well most of the time.

If you would like an episod that is more up lifting about gays then you should write the show and tell them. You should get all of your freinds to do the same. I know that they listen. You could post and ask other kittens to do the same.

The recent dog malling case makes history about same sex partners that would make a great show.

I can see why you would be not happy with the show. How ever I saw it as some of the others did and not as you did. That does not mean you are wrong. Thinking back I can understand why you would feel that way.

MrsCapt Murdock



IIRC, L&O did do a storyline loosely based on the Diane Whipple case. But they changed her partner to a man. (I *think* they were an unmarried couple who were living together, but it's been a while since I've seen that ep.)
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 Post subject: Lesbian death/murder on Law and Order
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 11:43 am 
Yes your right. My bad.

Perhaps they will do a movie. Better her mother and her lover will write will a book.

I am sure that it could not be done for a while as of yet.

I am sure they could find some who would print it and others who would read about it.



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