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Originally posted by theatremouse:
yeah so about this two hour finale dealio, fill in my meager little brain, when they do two hour shows are pt 1 and pt 2 usually written by different people?

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Bargaining Parts 1 & 2 had different writers

And the reason I will watch all the bad stuff, is that if it does indeed turn out bad, I want all my anger and rage and complete and utter disappointment to be at their pinnacle when I write to ME

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited March 21, 2002).]

IP: Logged

As for Joss Whedon, I've always gotten the impression that he does not really care what others (people not part of his staff I mean) think. I mean I am sure he cares, but to a degree, I cannot believe he would screw up his best creation to get back at anybody.

At Nocturnal during his talk he was jokingly talking about how he had thought that introducing Dawn as the younger sister would be original, only to hear everybody tell him that that has been done in every other soap on the planet or something. Not sure if he meant that, his sarcasm can be difficult to interpret at times. Heh.

He has always managed to be very original even when introducing old cliches. I don't think this is happening to punish anybody or to please anybody for that matter. But if this is how it ends I will not forgive, and I will not watch it. There really is no excuse that justifies pleasing the people this scenario will please. Hmmph, as for your last question. No. It is not too much to ask.

No, seriously, I don't think this is retaliation for spoilers. Joss has a different mentality when it comes to fans. He doesn't resent us. If anything, he recognizes that it's the fans that keep his machine running. If he was that petty, then I wouldn't watch the show.

I keep hearing how Joss likes to make characters indispensible and then he offs them, but it seems like an odd description to me. He's killed Jenny, Kendra and Joyce. But that's really it. I don't see these first two characters as being indispensible. Jenny hadn't been given time to really grow and to be widely accepted as a member of the Scoobies. Kendra, well, three or four episodes does not a Scooby make. As for Joyce--well, that one was much more plot driven than anything else. Joss always knew he was going to kill her off, but he had to wait until the characters were the most vulnerable. The killing of a character has never ever been this gratuitous, graphic, and really nonsensical IMO.

--Sela

If want this kind of pain on TV, I'll watch CNN.

I won't touch another thing that Joss or Marti do on TV if this stays bad. I'll watch Amber and Aly in anything. But I don't have to take this crap.

My wife absolutly detests "Ally McBeal" since they killed of Billy. If they keep Tara dead, I won't need to convince her not to watch. And she is the one who got me to watch all of Voyager!

So ME, if you have your little spies out there reading this, take notes. This is how you shoot yourself in the foot. You have given me some great characters and stories, but I don't have to take this. I'll support other fans by reading fan fics, or playing the RPG game with Tara still alive.
Show that you are smarter than the David Kellys, JMSs and Chris Carters out there.

Speaking of the RPG. I don't know how it is with most license holders, but Fox, ME and Joss already got their money. Not buying some products hurts that manufacture and not ME, Fox. So yes, I plan to buy all of the Buffy RPG books this summer, not because of ME, but because it would hurt the guys and gals at Eden even more.

Warlock

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Originally posted by JustSomeGuy:
For me, it just keeps on coming back to this: why?
Why would Marti do this? Why would Joss let her?
What the hell are they thinking?
What if Joss is doing this to "get back" at us for all the spoiler nonsense?

....maybe loss of viewers are'nt really a concern to Joss on this.. I mean, 7 *is* the last season..

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There are a lot of reasons I could come up with for why. Though most are rationalizations. I can even think of some positive rationalizations. like...maybe Joss is doing this to 'get back at' the gay person dies stereotype, assuming that he makes it okay in the end.

I agree that this season has had little in the way of hope or joy. And I can't take much more. Still, I want to give Joss and ME a chance to turn it all around. I want to believe there is some master plan here and that Joss does in fact know what he is doing, and what he is putting the fans through.

I have seen what you are describing though, a number of times. The writers suddenly begin to think they are smarter then the fans. Good writers of a show assume that the fans don't really know what they want. Which is true, to an extent. Like on the show 'Moonlighting' we liked the dance of sexual tension, and we wanted the leads to get together. But we also didn't want them to get together because the dance of sexual tension would end.

We WANT Tara and Willow to be happy. But then again, love depends on dealing with strife and that IS what Buffy is all about. How long would we all watch if everything was happy and cheery?

The problem is that the writers have gone to the other extreme. They aren't really giving ANY of us what we want. not even a little.

Joss may have gotten to the point where he believes he knows better than we do. That his 'creative license' is more important then the fans. I don't know. I hope not.

But he has to care about writing because Firefly is NOT a success yet and UPN MAY want more of Buffy IF the ratings keep up.

If this is indeed a train wreck and not a self-contained rollercoaster ride, I'll be the first to throw mud on Joss. I still believe this will be OK in the long run, though. To each their own.

"Although initially, she does a very good deed, she is later blinded by the desire for vengeance. No one (and as you'll see, nothing) is able to stop her."

This of course is referring to Willow going ballistic after finding Tara's body.

My question is, what could be this "very good deed" be? Please don't tell me it is tracking down Warren and killing him in cold blood. It cant be bringing Tara back from the dead either, because every thing we have been presented lead us to believe that she doesn't.

God, this is killing me. I don't ever remember being this nervous about a series finale before.

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Originally posted by Wiccagrrl:
Cici, yeah, I guess we'll see. We know we get a fairly passionate kiss in ep 18. (See first post) We know Amber mentioned a naked (well, with modesty clothing) bed scene. How much we see on screen, we'll see, but the implication seems to be make-up sex.

Considering Tara gets killed shortly after the make-up, I actually wouldn't be a bit surprised if we did get an actual love scene. Y'know, just so we get the highest highs and the lowest lows. Or maybe the actual love scene will wait until they bring Tara back (thinking positively here)

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"passionate kiss" ? Like Jessie and Katie? *g*
Oh my God! I sooooo hope for a lovescene. A little skin here and there *g*

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Originally posted by Cajjy:
My question is, what could be this "very good deed" be? Please don't tell me it is tracking down Warren and killing him in cold blood. It cant be bringing Tara back from the dead either, because every thing we have been presented lead us to believe that she doesn't.

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If I remember what I've been told correctly, Buffy also gets shot and Willow manages to save her with magic. Someone with more knowledge may come along to correct me, though.

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
Well, that's the thing, Brian. I can't let myself get too angry because it'll interfere with my own writing. I reached this conclusion after I was completely unable to do any story-planning yesterday because I kept checking the board to see if there was any new news. Bailing out early is pretty much a self-defense mechanism.

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Oh I completely understand Bob, I would advise most Kittens who will take this very badly to do like you and just not watch it but for me, I want all that anger and rage to be at a boil if the worst comes to pass, but that’s not a good thing for most people, I just happen to thrive on it, but most people shouldn’t watch if it does turn out bad.

"I don't know if I can explain it. Yes, I was furious with Oz - I've never been so angry in my life. I even started to mojo him, seriously mojo, but in the end I decided not to go through with it. Why? Because deep down inside, I knew I wouldn't be like that - hurting - forever, no matter what I was feeling at the time. I knew I would eventually heal. And when I did, I wanted the rest of my life to be okay - I didn't want to do anything that would make the good parts of it go bad. You know?....I just knew in here." She touched the center of her chest for emphasis. "See, it's more than just what happens to the physical body. It has to do with what touches the spirit, too, with the essence of yourself that lasts forever, whether or not you've got a bunch of blood and bones carrying it around. I kind of think that even if we don't have a body, we still go on forever. We're all part of the energy of the universe, but it's our choice whether we're going to be on the dark side of that energy, where everything is in the shadows and it all feels cold and angry and always full of pain, or on the light side, where it's just the opposite."

What I found interesting is that Willow seems so aware in this novel about good and bad, or what constitutes goodness and badness. She's more than aware that if she loses herself to the pain, she will die too, spiritually. And yet, this is what's going to happen. And it's not my Willow, you know? It's not the Willow I've loved for six years. She wouldn't do that.

I guess I'm a little pissed at the writers for allowing cliche to guide their creativity rather than the character. For allowing this to happen to an established character, rather than thinking, hmmm, now how would Willow deal with it.

She's spent so long this season proving that she's not going to give in to the addiction, and now we're going to see her return to the first six/seven episodes. Sigh. Where's the development in that? Where's the characterisation?

I read the posts talking about whether you'll watch the show or not after all this is over. All I can say is that there's going to have to be a lot of convincing before I'll simply believe.

Sigh.

I'm done now.

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Originally posted by wiccie:
Backing up Garfield, yeah the B&B sitch was because LH wanted to be mom...

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lurvingly snipped

I think I actually still have B&B on tape somewhere!

Anyway, all I have to say about not watching the show if all of this comes to pass is, I came into Buffy viewing as a Tara fan. That's what got me to the show in season 4 in the first place. So for me... it basically wouldn't have the reason I started watching, therefore, I really can't say I could muster up the energy to watch it every Tuesday next year if they do away with her.

See. If I thought Tara death was some how related to Amber wanting to go on and do other things, I could come to be ok with it. Granted ok as I could get, but I would understand.

I am not getting that she want to go anywhere else. Sure she is multi-talanted, and I KNOW we will not be hearing the last of her even after "Buffy" has gone to syndication forever. But she seems to want to stay here.

And then all the talk of Joss and Marti loving her. Is that just sunshine they are trying to blow up our butts or do they mean it?

More confused than when this day started....

Plushy Cthulhu dolls for all the Kittens! I can't pay for them of course.

Warlock.

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Originally posted by Warduke:
Oh I completely understand Bob, I would advise most Kittens who will take this very badly to do like you and just not watch it but for me, I want all that anger and rage to be at a boil if the worst comes to pass, but that’s not a good thing for most people, I just happen to thrive on it, but most people shouldn’t watch if it does turn out bad.

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Oh sexy Canadian rage. Yum.

Cici, exactly how are Joyce and Jenny not dead? They have shown up in demon induced hallucinations, but otherwise they are quite dead.

After Tara has her brain sucked out, the doctor asks Willow if she is her sister and Willow replies - "She's my everything."

Then when Willow does her magic and Tara gets her brain back, Willow says "I found you, I'll always find you."

Then this season when Willow and Xander are missing after trying to resurrect Buffy, Tara tells Anya that her and Willow always find each other.

I can't imagine the writers would keep including that dialogue without a good reason.

*edited to say that instead of double posting, edit your first post and add anything new to that one.

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Originally posted by mariacomet:

There are a lot of reasons I could come up with for why. Though most are rationalizations. I can even think of some positive rationalizations. like...maybe Joss is doing this to 'get back at' the gay person dies stereotype, assuming that he makes it okay in the end.

I agree that this season has had little in the way of hope or joy. And I can't take much more. Still, I want to give Joss and ME a chance to turn it all around. I want to believe there is some master plan here and that Joss does in fact know what he is doing, and what he is putting the fans through.

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This has been my reason for hope; that Joss fully intends to blast the cliche right out of the water this time. He's gone headfirst at it the past two years -- first with NMR (cliche in place: boyfriend comes back, lesbian leaves her lover to return to him and 'normalcy'...OH! WAIT! NO! She actually realizes who she is and where her destiny and True Love lies and ends up recommitting herself to her relationship with her girlfriend...); and then last year in TL thru The Gift (cliche in place: one girlfriend goes crazy, the other goes on a vengeance spree, everything goes to hell in a handbasket for them and everyone around them...OH! WAIT! NO! They end up sticking together through it all, one recommitting her love and her life to the care of the other who somehow, despite being so lost in the muddle of her mind, still recognizes and connects with her lover. Oh yeah, and together they end up playing a critical role in saving almost everybody else's asses in the end...).

I just keep telling myself that it is no "accident" that this latest scenario of the cliche has been set up. And I do have to believe it is a purposeful set-up. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, yada yada yada...

I just hope that whatever it is that ME has in mind for stating the case this time around is worth all the pain and anguish that we who already get it are going to have to endure as they play it all out.

Because I gotta be honest here, this is really pushing the limits of faith and fairness with the loyal viewership...and nothing short of a miraculously uplifting finale is going to make this anywhere near worth having had to go through the utter brutality of it.

Oh yeah...and the girls better be getting a free pass to love and bliss and limitless smoochies next season; they deserve it and so do we. Joss and Marti can look elsewhere to find a new Poster Couple for Angst..

--jr

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Originally posted by Dr.G:
[B]JustSomeGuy, about Beauty and the Beast, I remember reading an interview with Ron Perlman in which he stated that Linda Hamilton wanted to leave the show because she was pregnant and wanted to spend more time with her family. Still killing her off was equal to killing the show.

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Ahhh, Beauty and the Beast. I was wondering if that show would ever come up in this discussion. I actually know quite a bit about that situation. It was indeed Linda Hamilton who wanted out. What's interesting is that the writers later admitted that they were so angry with Linda for bailing, that they killed her character in a purposely cruel and spiteful manner to get back at her. They later regretted their harshness and felt the character deserved more. Just thought I'd point out that sometimes how a writer feels about an actor DOES translate into how their characters are treated in scripts. I don't think that Joss's affection for Amber/Tara is necessarily a moot point.

However, you can count me among those who will NOT watch Tara die and Willow go evil if I find out it is permanent. And even if things turn out okay this time, I will be carefully reading the spoiler thread next season and if I even get a whiff of more significant W/T agony, I'm outta here. I'm not going through this again. It's just awful.

Amy

People say that if this goes down it will be aginst the developments both Wil and Buffy have been making. They also say that the reste is stupid as they won't learn. Where heres anothe rperspective.

They have ALREADY learnt. Both Buffy and Willow are dealing and their stories are wrapping up, they are 'growing up'. The reason they both suddenly flyback off the wagon is due to ONE person ie. Warren, who refuses to grow up. If he kills Tara and stes off this chain of events he destroys the 'happy ending' that was occuring. So when it is reversed it stops Warren destroying what they learnt;they don't need to remember. This is also why wareen is the biggest big bad.. a normal human destorying everything they worked for. He refuses to grow up and brings about these events; the reversal stops HIM but doesn't effect Buffy and Wil as they alreayd learnt the rerst of the season.

Did that make any sense???

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Trust In Joss

"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"Me and Willow always know how to find each other"

"Black mircles, dark wonders, another life of unknown pleasures"

I have watched this show since the first episode and have loved and defended it ever since, but this season, I've pretty much watched it go from an entertaining, wonderful show, to a depressing dark one.

It's not just what's happened to W+T, although that is my main priority, it's what's happened to everyone else too, which I realise is part of Joss's big theme of 'Grow UP' but as far as I can see, there isn't much about growing up to be seen, only pain, fear and despair, if that's Joss's version of growing up, boy did he have a screwed up childhood!

I still have some faith in Joss, but it's becoming increasingly strained, I still have hope that he's going to put this right, that Tara is going to be alive at the end and that she and Willow will be happy and together, because I desperately need them to be, because as hard as this season has been to watch, I still want and need this show, but I know I won't be able to watch it anymore if he insists on tearing it all to hell and that depresses me more than I can tell you.

Good analysis.... and I'd speculate, very on the money.

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Originally posted by Willowlicious:
Ahhh, Beauty and the Beast. I was wondering if that show would ever come up in this discussion. I actually know quite a bit about that situation. It was indeed Linda Hamilton who wanted out. What's interesting is that the writers later admitted that they were so angry with Linda for bailing, that they killed her character in a purposely cruel and spiteful manner to get back at her. They later regretted their harshness and felt the character deserved more.

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Ironic. I've got all the B&B episodes on tape. Absolutely loved that show. Vincent could read poetry to me any time, anywhere, any which way he wanted to... *sigh*

But the thing is, I haven't been able to watch those tapes since the episode aired where they killed off Catherine in what I felt was a cruel and despicable fashion...

I'm just saying...

--jr

The only one who really hasn't is Xander. So, if there is a reset and it is Anya who sacrifices herself for it, then he's the only one who needs to remember...or at least know what she sacrificed for him and why.