General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 9

[Warduke]

Since the last thread grew so big, so fast, we're making a new one again.

So here's the important spoilers from the last one...

From Dark Sheep Mysterioso Ep 18 Entropy:

quote:

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All right. I give this as a gift to those who so see it fit as one. I'm not gonna give you all of the stuff I have BUT, I will give you a very good part of it. But there is an EVEN better part/ parts of this ep. Anyway:
ACT ONE
Int. Uc Sunnydale Campus- Day
As students stream out of class, we see WILLOW, books in hand, leaning up against the wall of the building. Kinda forced casual. TARA comes out of class. Willow sees her, brightens, walks to her.
T: Hey
W: Look at you. All coming-out-of-class and everything.
T: (smiling) I do that sometimes. Usually at the end part of the class.
W: Right [ for some reason the script says Warren, I guess they need a reader. Ruth you might want to apply! But Willow does say this line]
They walk together. Slowly. Not rushing anywhere.
T: (pointing awkwardly at Willow's neck) How's your...you know, after the basement deal?
Willow swivels her head, testing her neck.
W: It's between a hitch and a kink. With a side of twinge. It's okay.
T: And Buffy's okay too? Enjoying the refreshing sanity and so forth?
W: (overdoing) Ha! Yes! Refreshing san--that's funny! (compensating soberly) She's okay. A little...freaked. I'm glad she didn't hurt you.
T: You too.
A beat of silence, then:
T (cont'd): So this is becoming kind of a regular thing. You and me after class.
W: Uh, I didn't...
T: only this time you stuck around.
W: Oh, um...various sounds of hesitation [again I believe this should have been in parentheticals]
T: She was just a friend.
Willow's caught a little off guard. But relieved.
W: Friends are nice!
T: You rushed off before I could, you know, explain.
W: Officially, of course, I have to say that I have no idea what you're talking about.
T: Unofficially?
Willow just grins a big grin. They walk in silence for a moment. Willow, still nervous, takes a deep breath, then:
W: We should get coffee some time. Maybe some day this week after class.
T: I am free tomorrow. [{I know we're all cheering right now.}]
W: You could, you could bring your friend.
Tara's actually a little thrown by this.
T: I wasn't gonna--I mean, if you have a friend-- [uh oh! But alas:]
W: No! I'm, oh, I'm friendless.
T: Yeah, yeah. No friends--I mean, I have friends...[sadly I wasn't her friend ]
W: Many dear friends, yeah, but--
T: Coffee.
W: With us. Who are...just friends.
Eventually later they go to the Espresso Pump and Anya shows up and ruins their Coffee date so to speak. I have more info, but I think this is good enough for now. I'm sure someone else will have the info that I am NOT going to post at this time. Too much of a good thing can kill you!
For I am Dark Sheep Mysterioso. May all lesser sheep bow before me. And on a personal note, you will very much like the way this episode ends.

---

And here's the end which DSM was talking about...

quote:

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Willow's bedroom

Tara: Things fall apart, they fall so hard. (Tara is standing in the door way.)
Willow: Tara.

Tara: There's so much to work through, trust has to build again on both sides,
you have to learn if you are even the same people you were, if you can fit in each other's lives, it's a long and important process and can we just skip it, and can you just be kissing me now?

Willow, searches Tara's face, did Tara just.

Yes.

Tara stares back nervous but sure.

Willow stands as Tara moves to her.

They kiss passionately, they interlock fingers, holding on as tight as they can, not letting go they keep kissing, it is intense, it is passionate, and it is above all else, love, truly and forever.

---

Spoilers for ep 18 by AnGelX...

quote:

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Entropy

Ep: 18.

NEW! Having accepted the offer to become a vengeance demon again, Anya attempts to curse Xander for the pain he caused her...but she can't do it herself. Instead, she secretly enlists the help of someone else and it doesn't go how she expected.

NEW! The Trio have been following the Scoobies everywhere they go with hidden cameras. When one camera is discovered and the rest are traced, what some characters see on video proves to be devastating.

NEW! Buffy tries to spend quality time with Dawn to make up for her violent actions in "Normal Again" (if you consider trying to kill all her friends violent), but Dawn's idea of time well spent is the dangerous world of patrolling.

NEW! Buffy confesses to Dawn about her relationship with Spike and after an odd turn of events, Xander and Anya find out as well.

NEW! Dawn's stealing is readdressed.

NEW! After some sweet time spent together after class and a during coffee date, Willow and Tara do get back together and make with the major smoochies.

NEW! The Trio steal a disk needed for one of their upcoming big evil plans.

---

And here's more from ep 18 by AnGelX...

quote:

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Here's that scene I mentioned from 18. The "coffee date."
ESPRESSO PUMP

Tara and Willow sit across a table from each other with coffee and scones. Comfortable, happy.

TARA
Okay, wait, it was under her wig?

WILLOW
It was this thing, and it came out from inside her head.

TARA
That's disgusting. What did it look like?

WILLOW
Well... let's put it this way. If I wasn't gay before...

TARA
Gah. And this was after the invisible ray?

WILLOW
Yes.

TARA
Okay, I go away for a couple of months...

WILLOW
Oh, did I tell you about the demon eggs?

TARA
See, now I know you're just trying to make me jealous.

WILLOW
So, what, no rollicking adventures in the dorms?

TARA
It's not the same. It's not like living in a house full of family or sharing a room with someone you...you know...

WILLOW
Are friends with?

Couple of lines from later on when they're talking with Anya...

TARA
It's not really so much about hating the men.

WILLOW
We're more centered around the girl on girl action.

Wish there was more to give... but that's pretty much it. There are a few other lines, but nothing much. If I find out anything about 19 with W/T, I'll let you know. It should be all happiness. Also, if I find out that the info I have is wrong, I will personally throw the party.

-Michelle

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And finally, the bad news from AnGelX...

quote:

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Hi.

I know I don't post here much anymore and I'm sorry that this post has to be the way it is. Especially now after you got such good news about W/T. But, I promised to say what I knew about Tara and Willow when I knew it and I figure I owe it to the board and other Tara supporters to tell you first. I know it is no consolation, but I am very sorry this is the news I have to bring to you. Fair warning, the following spoilers are very big.
*
*
*
*
Unfortunately, the character that does not survive is Tara. It is accidental, but she is killed by Warren who intended to kill Buffy. For those who don't want to know, I'm not going to get into details of how it happens. Willow tries to revive her, but because Tara is not taken away by mystical powers, Willow does not have what it takes at the time to bring her back. Consequently, this leads to Willow's return to magic and it's not a change for the good. Motivated by rage, she becomes consumed with dark magic and goes out on a rampage to seek revenge. If it helps at all, Warren suffers horribly at the hands of Willow for taking Tara's life.

I wish I had a way to make it better, but I can't. I will do whatever I can to find out if this is somehow reversed in later episodes. The events of 20 leave a lot of devastating storylines out in the open and I am hoping that everything gets reversed or corrected or something by the end of the finale. Right now, I'm afraid that I don't have anything on the last two episodes, so I have no idea what the writers have in store. In the case that I do find something out, or if I hear of any reappearance of Tara in any form or a turn for the better for Willow, I will try to let you know.

Again, not that it means anything, but I am really sorry. I wanted so badly for the information to be false and this was the last thing I ever wanted to post here. I hope I'll have something positive and wonderful to report to you later. You already know about the goodness in 18 and 19 should have a lot of W/T goodness as well, although I don't have anything specific to report to you right now. There is another happy scene between Willow and Tara in 18 that I don't think has been posted (the coffee date)...if it would help any, I could post it here. But maybe it's already been shared.

If you have any questions about what happens, I will do my best to answer them based on the information I have. You can contact me privately via e-mail, if you'd prefer.

-Michelle

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And this post by xita...

quote:

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I have lived in fear of this day for months. I came home each day and wondered if today was the day, I'd open the board, turn on yahoo and be flooded with the news.

The first thing I want to make clear is do not shoot the messenger. AngelX has been nothing but kind to us. I have asked her to post this here so that you guys know that it carries as much weight as anything AngelX has revealed all year and for us to be the first to hear it in the mildest terms possible. If you want to question the validity of the source do not involve AngelX has she has nothing to do with that. I know that we have at times have had conflict with certain spoiler providers but it was never with the spoiler but the attitude that came with it. We were trying to be forced to believe it without any evidence. And it is our right not to believe, or to live in denial or to do whatever we want.

We must be allowed to feel our feelings. This is terribly shocking, if true, if allowed to remain. I don't begrudge people their pain but I just want it to stay here in this thread. There are unspoiled (poor souls) people and it is their choice to stay that way. Part of me wishes I didn't know because I could then enjoy the glory that is ep 18, the ultimate shipper episode. And I will try to enjoy that, I have waited for that and I will have that. And I will also have w/t love. Because nowhere in this is their love betrayed. And I can never feel bad for having shipped these gals because it was all about the love to me. And no one can take that away from me.

I hope that certain people can avoid pettiness and not come to our board to gloat or celebrate. Any such post will cause immediate deletion and banning. I also suggest you stay off other boards, and I will understand if you need to leave this one as well. But know that at least here you will be with people who understand your pain. And we can get each other through this as best we can.

Personally, I have gone through several stages of grief and denial. I can't be sure this will air, and none of us will know till it does. I can't be mad at the TPB for this yet until I see it played out. Till I see what is coming in ep 21 and 22. Then I will have all kinds of reactions. My biggest concern is that we hold it together. We have a great community here that has been built for over 2 years and I would hate for us to self-destruct over this potential storyline. Let's support this as we try to understand and process this information.

I'll be in chat all day today if people need to come and chat. yahoo IM: xita, write me xita@xita.org

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And this post by len...

quote:

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Thanks to Angel X for telling us here first before she posted to her own board. This is terrible news, if true, and I've been thinking about this all night. (Angel X agreed to hold off for a short time)

Grief isn't logical. There's no way to tell someone that they ought to feel this way or that, more for the passing of their grandmother than the passing of their cat. I can tell myself "It's just a TV show." and "They're imaginary." and "Get a life.", but that doesn't make it hurt less. Not for you and not for me.

I love Willow and Tara as a couple more than I have ever loved any characters on TV, and I've watched a lot of TV. Through my attention to them, I've met all the wonderful Kittens I've come to cherish and call friends these past couple of years. And now I'm preparing myself to grieve.

I say preparing myself, because it hasn't happened yet, and I don't think it will quite hit me until I've seen it on screen. And because I hold out a hope that these spoilers are false, or that my understanding of them is incomplete, or that there's a twist I just don't know about. But my eyes are clear. We don't always get what we want. This could all be true. So I prepare myself for the worst.

The thing I hold onto, the thing that prevents sadness and anger from welling up in me and shutting me down is the small comfort of knowing what this storyline, this relationship has meant to so many people, and the feeling that its good effects don't end just because it ends. If this all turns out to be true, if Tara dies, she won't die out of some self hating loneliness. She won't die because of "the horror" of her gayness. She won't die because of the hate of the world, just the evil of one twisted person seeking his own agenda. And if it happens, when it happens, the end comes with Tara and Willow reconciled. Loving each other, back together. And anyone who ever watches or writes about Buffy from now on will know it and see it and acknowledge it. It's television history. It's helped people. It's opened some eyes. It's important.

I don't know all of you equally well. But I love this community, fiercely, and I hate to see it in pain. I hope we can hang together and comfort each other as we absorb this news. Right now, I mostly feel sadness. I know some folks will feel anger, and I can't tell you not too. But please don't attack Angel X. She's a real person, a woman named Michele, she's been a friend to the moderators and a friend to the board, this grieves her too and she's trying as best she can to see if there's any other information that changes things. And while the death of Tara means the most to us as Kittens, if this information is true, it represents a very, very dark group of episodes all around, the whole show is tossed on it's head. There will be other people, other shippers, other boards upset by the things that happen, and I hope that we don't attack them either, they don't control who lives or dies.

It's posted in the link at the top of the page, but my email address is l_mccain@hotmail.com, and my Yahoo IM name is Hugin_len, if folks want to talk but don't feel comfortable for whatever reason, feel free to write privately. We can get through this. Help each other. Thank you.

-len

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[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited March 11, 2002).]quote:quote:quote:quote:quote:quote:quote:

[BBOvenGuy]

Wow, that didn't take long.

When the last thread bit the dust, I was just commenting on the question:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karzia:
My point exactly, why why why do TPTB need to beat this obviously dead horse, we finnally get a maintext lesbian couple on a mainstream TV and they have to go and ruin it by doing the same old, "must kill or make bad the terrible gay people", I just realized that I wouldn't be so upset if it wasn't the same old crap.

---

And my response was:

Well, this is where Joss has really screwed up.

Killing Tara has nothing to do with the lesbian nature of the relationship. It's simply the trigger for Willow's rage. You could have Willow still be with Oz and then kill Oz, and you'd get the same result.

Unfortunately, since it's Tara who's Willow's lover now, Joss & co. have walked right into the very lesbian cliche they always swore they would never do. They're going to have a lot of explaining to do if they want to recover from such a major mistake. I mean, Joss supposedly plans these seasons out well in advance. Are we supposed to believe he didn't see the corner he was painting himself into?quote:

[Wiccagrrl]

Yes, Bob, that's been eating at me too. I have this slim hope that they'll do something to turn the cliche on it's head (Like they've done with other cliches in the series since it started.) We *know* based on what they've told us in the past that they are well, well aware of it, so it sure as hell isn't "Oh, my...I didn't see that I was doing that." But right now, I'm finding it hard to place much hope in this working out in anything like a decent way.

[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited March 10, 2002).]

[The Rose]

Well, atleast we know where Tara is staying. That mystery has been solved. Also, this shows Tara misses Willow terribly and living with her real family.

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Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[Under Her Spell]

As far as these spoilers go, no matter how hard I try to deny it I think the spoiler about Tara dying is true - it's cruel and stupid, but it's precisely the sort of thing that Marti Noxon (as opposed to Joss) would think up. It looks like a case of trying for the big emotional impact, but that show has always understood the balance between emotional impact and between making the show light and funny.

As for the other spoilers, they mostly smack of an M.E. smokescreen. But simply because it would be so cruel to make people believe Tara was going to die, and I think that spoiler is real, I'm afraid. Probably Amber decided she didn't want to do another season of the show - but that's no excuse for the writers to kill her character. That's just playing for tears in a petty, pointless way.

[BBOvenGuy]

Oh, I haven't given up on the possibility that Tara will somehow be revived in the last two episodes. Amber's recent interview was too cheery, and she's still on the autograph and convention tour. That's not what I'd expect to see if Tara's death was permanent.

Which is why I say again that we need to keep digging. There are still two episodes to go. We need to find out what happens in them.

[xita]

Ok, it's shame the last thread went wonky! page 28 is completely missing and anythign before 11 shows as only having 11 pages in the whole thread but all of them are there excpet 18. Too bad.

[VampNo1]

Another thing I don't understand that if these spoilers are true then why is Amber and darkhorse doing new comics of W&T? I know the comics are suppossed to take place between the end of season 5 and the summer before season 6, but it seems like rubbing salt in people's wounds to have these comics after having the events of a death and an evil Willow unfold on the actual show. Personally, I would think they would either put these comics out before the story-line unfolds on the show, or just not make any new special comics centering on W&T. I mean do they really think people are going to invest in these comics if the characters are destroyed in the actual program (one death and one evil muderess). Therefore, I hope and pray with Amber doing the comics and the signings it points us in a positive direction that in the end of season 6 this story-line will be some what redeemable, with both W&T happy and alive.

[TarotX]

First I have to say that if Tara dies and Willow turns bad we better not have any Anya and Spike "living" redemption going on. We can't have the "good" characters the villains and the "bad" characters the ones we laugh and cry with. I will go crazy. Life is gray but not that dark of shade.

Also I'm starting to believe the Anya/Spike crap because having Buffy and Anya boink Spike would be too much for Xander. And Add Willow flipping out to that. This would be very close to his worst nightmare I would think.

This is all a resort of the Buffy resurrection spell.
Willow uncontrollable warpathish (Loss of sprint)

Tara dead

Xander loses all the important people in his life and there for no one to love. (Loss of heart).

Anya all vengeancey.

Giles's brain left and the scoobies went down hill (It's all Giles's fault because he was the father figure and he deserted the family-figuratively?)

Buffy came back from the dead "going though the motions". She doesn't kill vampires any more. She boinks them. That was her strength (Loss of hand because of lack of will or something).

Also with all her friends tied up Buffy is alone. This what the first slayer wanted-right?

I don't know where my train of thought is headed because I'm thinking of a mix of the consequences of the Buffy spell but also the Restless clues and how that leads to the seasonal arc of "Oh grow up".

[This message has been edited by TarotX (edited March 10, 2002).]

[cachaco]

I posted the following just before the last thread went kaput:
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As long as we're on an even more pessimistic jag, Bob (since you are wise and know a thing or two about TV production), what do you think about the idea that not renewing Amber's contract is a cost-savings measure brought on by the lack of ratings pick-up after the move from WB? The news stories last year at the time of the move made a big deal about how the WB didn't want to pay the hefty license fee, but that UPN ended up paying even more than what the WB had been. Now, I don't think of UPN as the most financially stable network in the universe, and as much as landing Buffy has been a boost for them, I don't know (and I mean that literally) that the ratings have been all that much better than what they were on the WB. Add in the general slowness of ad revenues post-9/11, and it seems to me like ME and 20th Century Fox would be under some pressure to cut costs. Maybe it's for this reason that Amber's contract might not be renewed, and we hear all these rumors about Anya getting killed off?!? 'Cause being fucked over by the bean-counters makes a whole lot more sense to me as a rationale for this nonsense than the alternative - that they really mean it and want to do this to all the fans. Am I off my rocker here?

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PASTURE: See... that is, where you are a mockup. With I think on..., you grew up to what, and... then regard I, which you form... it me are proud. It educates me to love you more.

[This message has been edited by cachaco (edited March 10, 2002).]

[EmilyLovesW/T]

Ok, for the last 2 days I've been on a major emotional roller coaster. Sometimes things are looking up, sometimes things are looking down....but I just realized something: I don't want the downs anymore. So I'm refusing to get sad about this. We just have to wait. It's going to be hard, it's going to majorly suck at times, but there will be times when it's not that bad, and times when the sadness goes away for a few minutes. I'm here hoping to bring you all a few minutes of happiness. Here's a scenario I thought off over milk and cookies. (Which, btw, proves a major mood booster when times are sad. Cookies solve anything. And chocolate chip cookies? Forget about it. ) Ok, so I'll make with the happy scenario:

Now, this is probably a direct result of my overdose of Willow/Tara happy sappy fan fiction in the past 24 hours. Specifically the kind where vows are spoken, rings are worn, and "I do's" are said.

Scenario: Let's say that Tara dies. Major sadness I know. Willow goes bad, blah-di-blah, Anya the Vengence (or Justice) Demon comes to the rescue and somehow a wish is made or something and all is right again. Let's not think about how, or why, or whether or not it makes any sense at all. Let's think about that reunion between Willow and Tara once Tara is alive again. This alone has got to bring a smile to someone's face. If there is going to be a death scene it's going to be amazing -- not *good* amazing, just a major tear-jerking, jaw-dropping, Aly and Amber at their very best death scene. But then think about the LIFE scene. When Willow gets Tara back, alive. That moment when Willow's true love comes back to life and they reunite for the first time is going to be even more amazing than the death scene. So, the season ends, Willow and Tara are back together, all is good in kitty land once again. Yay. Now it's summer. Flash forward to the season 7 premire. Now, if your true love died and came back to life would you ever risk loosing them again? Hell NO! So, if my scenario plays out, let's say Willow takes a big growing up step and does the one thing that would make every kitty from America to Asia leap into the air and spontaneously combust with happiness. Willow proposes to Tara. They get engaged. Somewhere in season 7 we get a big happy sappy wedding that goes off without a hitch (Well, maybe a demon or whatever because I mean, c'mon, this IS Buffy.) But the bottom line is that Willow and Tara get married. Think about it for one second. Erase all of the scenes in your mind of Tara dying and just think about what it would be like to see a Willow and Tara wedding. Big ol' heapin' piles of ooey-gooey happiness right?? Now that you have that one moment of happiness don't let it go. Return to it every time you get sad. And have faith. This is Joss. This is Buffy. Leader of all things impossible. When have they let us down? When has one event, especially a big event, on the show made us go "well, my dog could have predicted that outcome." I can't think of any. So rest easy. Think of a glorious wedding between our girls. As a survivor of last year's Charmed's Shannen Doherty vs. Alyssa Milano debacle and knowing all of the pain I went through over that I can tell you that it will get better. It's hard for a while, and it sucks beyond belief, but it does get better. And one thing that got me through Shannen Doherty's departure and Prue's death on Charmed was the thought of a possible reunion some day and that that one scene would be worth all of the tears and suffering. I'm still waiting, but at least there's hope. If you have hope that this whole Willow and Tara deal may have a happy ending, which leads to even happier endings, then full steam ahead with the big pools of ooey goodness. Bottom line: Chin up kitties. Think of what the future may hold for Willow and Tara. And I sure as heck know I'll be thinking of a wedding. I hope I've helped.

Love to all of you -

*Emily

[Karzia]

quote:

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Originally posted by xita:
Ok, it's shame the last thread went wonky! page 28 is completely missing and anythign before 11 shows as only having 11 pages in the whole thread but all of them are there excpet 18. Too bad.

---

And let me publicly say " I am so sorry" due to my slow stupid server and heavy page traffic on that last thread my last post got repeted a bunch of times, talk about "beat a dead horse"

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Ad astea per astaquote:

[Willowlicious]

Damn! I lost a huge post on the other thread! Sigh.

Okay, I'm not feeling very coherent, but I'm going to try to make sense. I'm trying to figure out where each of the main characters are going to be at the point a reset is enacted (if in fact one is enacted at all).

My first question is do each of the characters just completely self-destruct or do they face down their inner Big Bad at the last moment (but it's still too late)? I would assume that each character has to grow. My second question is who will actually enact the reset?

1. Willow. From Sam's comment, I suppose she could just go "poof," but what will she do to grow first? Will she discover she can turn back time or resurrect Tara and choose not to before she bites it? Will she give up her powers? Will she actually die at all?

2. Xander. Will he be mortally wounded by Anya or actions set about by Anya, but give a heartfelt demonstration of his true love for her as he lays dying?

3. Buffy. I haven't heard much about her actions, but, since it's her show, they must be significant! Does she finally stake Spike? Does she (more cliches!) fight Willow? I don't see her being the one to hit reset, because she has been taking the easy way out all season. It seems that wouldn't show growth on her part.

4. Anya. Which brings it all back to Anya again. She's the only one who would show growth by reversing her spell (if there even is one) or somehow sacrificing herself in order to reset events, thus saving Xander and the Scoobs. She would be choosing love and mercy over vengeance.

5. There is Spike (poof?) and Dawn, but I'm too tired to speculate on them. And we know where poor Tara fits into all this.

As for Tara being revived, I think she will be. The pessimist in me fears that somehow there will be a reset that still requires Willow to lose Tara as her "lesson." But logically that doesn't make sense. If, as Bob said, Tara is simply the trigger for Willow's rage in this horrendous scenario, then it is not necessary to make her death permanent. Again, Anya is the only one whose story is actually moved forward by death. I'm holding out hope that she'll also somehow return next year, but, Tara's survival is, of course, most important in my mind.

Again, I do think Amber will be on the show next season. She seems too actively involved and chipper for someone who is being permanently and cruelly killed. However, I agree with everyone who is disappointed that we have to be put through this horrendous, brutal, violent, sad, cruel storyline at all. A reset won't take away the pain of seeing Willow so completely gutted or Tara senselessly murdered. ME has really stepped into a mess with this one, IMHO.

Amy

[BBOvenGuy]

quote:

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Originally posted by cachaco:
what do you think about the idea that not renewing Amber's contract is a cost-savings measure brought on by the lack of ratings pick-up after the move from WB?

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I don't think that has anything to do with it. First of all, I think the two-season commitment was a package deal, so next year's budget is probably already locked in. Secondly, I would imagine that since Amber is always listed as a Guest Star, her paycheck would come out of a "Guest Star Fund" in the budget, which would be the same overall whether she was part of it or not. Third, if they were that desperate to cut costs, I'd imagine they'd cut one of the regulars loose, since they get more money.

quote:

[Under Her Spell]

I now living in oblivious la-la land. I've decided that, despite all evidence, whatever's going on Tara is not just going to die - something else is going to happen. And whatever it is, it won't be anything like the rumours. So, I'm going back to being unspoiled.

[Wiccagrrl]

Emily, thanks for the good thoughts. I love the idea of W/T getting married/doing a handfasting. Aww, very sweet.

Karzia, don't feel bad about the old thread going wonky. Threads tend to do that when they get too big.

[Bishop2]

Has everyone seen Angel X's new spoilers posted in the "Extra Spoilage" section of the Cross & Stake?

If you've already read about them, I'm sorry for repeating them. I haven't gotten to check up on the spoiler thread for two or three pages now.

I recommend you all proceed with caution as you go read these, for those of you who haven't seen them yet. Some of it is what we already know about the death... but it only gets harder from there. Stay strong.

[This message has been edited by Bishop2 (edited March 10, 2002).]

[cachaco]

OK, Bob, makes sense, thanks! What would we do without you, the voice of reason....

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PASTURE: See... that is, where you are a mockup. With I think on..., you grew up to what, and... then regard I, which you form... it me are proud. It educates me to love you more.

[The Partyman]

Wow. That last thread got so huge so fast.

Something I want to ask before I go to bed, which has sort of been touched upon, but has been in my mind ever since I heard the sad news. Just a possible scenario and a query:

*If* Amber has chosen herself to leave the show, for whatever reason, would this affect our reactions to the news of Tara's death in ep. 19.

I've read some heavy posts with a lot of anger directed at Joss, Marti and DeKnight for this storyline, but what if it was not their free choice? If Amber wanted to leave they would have to write Tara out somehow. Objectively, I couldn't realistically see Tara just leaving Sunnydale - she loves Willow too much!

UK Kittens may be familiar with the recent departure of Steve Owen from "Eastenders". In this case, the actor was leaving the show and actually insisted that the character be definitively killed off.

Now I am in no way suggesting that Amber does want to leave - it is just speculation on a possible semi-explanation for these story events. I do think, however, that it is a scenario that must be considered - and certainly IMHO a plausible possibility.

Still not happy about the news.

But slowly getting my objectivity back. (I'm normally all "Mr. Objective"!)

------------------
xxx

The Partyman

[This message has been edited by The Partyman (edited March 10, 2002).]

[TarotX]

Ok lets put another senario that has a hugh amount of more than likely won't be what's true....

I was sad so I was watching the musical again. It got me thinking that sure Buffy was really sad and life wasn't the best for any of our scoobies but the show went down hill after the musical. Lets say maybe instead of taking Dawn (or Xander) to hell Sweet took as all there. He did sing see you all in hell.

I know I know I'm majorly in denial but if the season ends bad that is what I'm going to believe because we all are in hell if our favorite characters are degraded or killed. In Buffy life in hell is really only a few days in real time and everything can be fixed with the memories of the horridness lingering in our/the characters minds to prevent the same inner trama to ruin their lives-right?

This way no real scoobie death!!!!!!

[Rosenberg]

Back from the hospital now. Still depressed, still on emotional overload, still at a loss for words even after having had time to reflect. For my own mental self-preservation, I've purchased a ticket on the Denial Bus. Oh look, the tour guide is pointing out the location in the park where Willow and Tara had their commitment ceremony. More jam tarts please...

I don't believe that the spoilers are false. I think that they're unfortunately true, and that's how episode 20 is going to play out. (By the way, thank you AngelX for delivering this devastating news to the kittens with sensitivity and compassion. If anyone had to break it to us, I'm glad it was you). I'm curious about episodes 21 and 22, which we really don't have much information on right now. If I have a shred of hope left, it's here. Everything sounds like it's so over the top in episode 20, that there has to be a reason. And the reason should be addressed in 21-22. Maybe the old reset button is cheesy, trite, lame and cliche, but at this point I'll take it if it means Tara coming back. This might give some credence to The Spoiler Who Shall Not Be Named who mentioned a while back that there would be a death, but it would not be permanent and it would not involve resurrection. I know I'm grasping at straws right now, but my heart is hurting. If Tara's death is permanent, if she dies for no good reason, then I curse your name, Joss. I really expected more from you. You will have betrayed me and all who believed in you.

I've held it in long enough. I think I'm going to go and have a good cry now.

[xita]

I had been afraid for a long time that Amber Benson would want to leave, but the writers are very clever and they could have figured out a way.. that didn't involve BOTH cliches!

[TaraWannabe]

Somebody already comment on the comics coming out after the (supposed) death...so let me just agree that it absolutely makes no sense. Who is going to buy the comics then?

Amber wants to leave the show?! Makes no sense either. She is the only actress that got involved in other projects around the show, i.e. the W/T comics and Tales of the Slayer. The popularity of the show helps her to promote her many talents. Why would she want to leave?

When W/T broke up I was 100% sure that it is only temporary. At the moment, their relationship progress is 100% too easy, trouble's ahead! But I am also 100% sure Tara is not a goner. Unless Willow is a goner too. I mean, what would they possibly do with Willow after such a loss???

[Bishop2]

I'm not really sure how having one of the regular cast members who's been there since the start turn to the dark side is a cliche. How many shows have been bold enough to make a move like that?

However, just because I think it's bold, and not a cliche, does NOT mean that I think it's WISE, or well-thought-out. At all.

[areslei]

Like many others, I'm crossing my fingers that Tara doesn't die. Else, I'm hoping that there truly is a reversal of events, as stated on the tvtome eps guide (technically, a reversal of events is not a resurrection...they only said there will be no resurrection). Amber Benson is a gift to the show. She's an extremely talented young actress. Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson's portrayal of two people in love has given me hope. My girlfriend and I are going through a tough time, and Wil and Tara's anticipated reunion gives me hope that things do get better... it may take some trying and some time, but they do get better. Willow and Tara is the light at the end of my tunnel. I truly hope Joss doesn't dim that light on me.

[This message has been edited by areslei (edited March 10, 2002).]

[Web Warlock]

You know what, I am getting sick and tired of this. I don't have to devote my attention to a TV show, but I do and I expect to compensated accordingly. Most of the time I get exactly what I put into it; half-attention at a dumb sitcom and I get marginal laughs and a 1/2 hour of brainless humor.

But BtVS is supposed to be above that. That is what the people at ME have been telling us for years, and most of the time they deliver the goods.

But I don't have to sit here have them lie to my face and keeping me all wide eyed just so they can spit in it.

If the season wraps as lame as some of the speculations have suggested, then ME has lost a lot of credibility with me. Credibility they will never get back.

If the season ends with Tara dead and Willow evil, then forget it. I'll stop watching and I'll make sure they know about it, as well as UPN and their advertisers.

If the season ends as above and Spike and Anya (actually former evil people) untouched, then forget Buffy, forget Angel and I'll never watch Firefly or anything having to do with these bastards again. And I will convince others to do the same.

If this is their feelings for the fans, well then they can all go to hell. I don't need some sanctimonious object lesson from some idiot living in Hollywood who knows nothing of my life. I don’t need you to tell me about pain assholes, I have my own life. Save your after school specials, save your “visions”, and most all save your money, cause I predict the fans will headed away in droves.

I like to hold out till the end of the season and hope all works out. But this spoiler smacks of a ME concocted plant and it is sadistic. Everyone says “trust Joss”, but I have not seen any good evidence that he is minding the store anymore. I have no reason to trust Marti, DeKnight, Fury or any of the rest. In fact I have plenty of reason not to trust them.

This is pissing me off more and more.

Warlock

------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
"I am invincible, I have no fears.
I am benevolent, I am the King of Beers!"

[Zerattakis]

Okay, I've just woken up with a wicked hangover and I can't believe my eyes. What a way to come out of Kitty board retirement? I'd only got to page 6 before I was too drunk to read and operate my computer and I get up to find it's now 31 pages long plus another thread! I'm hard booked to get through all these posts without more alochol to make the hangover go away [sounds like a good idea now anyway.] I just don't know where to start. I rang my girlfriend straight away to tell her the news and now she's a wreck [wonder how she's going to do at school today?] There's just so much to take on board and analyse [which I should be good at since I do sociology and Human Rights and Ethics at uni] but I'm at a loss. Tara's senseless murder after her rejoining with Willow, [sick irony if you ask me] Willow going 'evil' over her lover's murder [that I can see though, regardless of the rehashing] and using Warren's ex as a torture device. What a load to take on? I quit the board due to the time required to fully partcipate and so I come back to this? Bloody hell. I do thank Bob for being the level-headed one [at least more reasonable than the rest of us shocked ones.]
And Michelle, I sympathise for you having to deliver this news to our community, it must have felt terrible. Please understand that no one here means an ill word against you or your integrity. I kind of envy my fellow Australians whom have no idea what's to come, well for the moment anyway.

Stay strong like an amazon, kitties.

*hugs*

Sarah [off to go hug a bottle of Benedictine]

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SO: Okay, last question. What advice would you give to someone who gets their brains sucked out?
AB: Um ... eat a lot of apple sauce, preferably fed to you by attractive young lesbians.

[This message has been edited by Zerattakis (edited March 10, 2002).]

[Web Warlock]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishop2:
I'm not really sure how having one of the regular cast members who's been there since the start turn to the dark side is a cliche. How many shows have been bold enough to make a move like that?

However, just because I think it's bold, and not a cliche, does NOT mean that I think it's WISE, or well-thought-out. At all.

---

We all have heard Joss is a big comic fan. Ok, this sounds like a retread of the "Dark Pheonix" story arc in X-Men. Let me spell it out in case anyone didn't catch that one.
Young redhead with powers, starts getting more and more powerful, suddenly turns evil as result of that power and becomes the heroes worst enemy. In the end, she had to be killed.
Ok they later brought her back.
Why? Fan Outrage.
While it worked in Marvel Comics all those years ago. I can't see it working on Buffy.

Other examples. Star Trek: TNG (Tasha-Sela), Dr. Who (The Doctor-The Valeard), and just about every damn soap on TV including Dark Shadows. I am sure there is more.

Warlock

------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
"I am invincible, I have no fears.
I am benevolent, I am the King of Beers!"quote:

[LBJM]

If ep 19 is where and if tara is gonna die and if its aired on april 30.. thats my birthday
now I'm depressed.
LBJM

[Ari]

Bishop2,

The cliche is that the character who has been there from the beginning and is turning to the dark side also happens to be the only gay one.

I do hope that if they take Willow that dark, just completely out of control, that before she is destroyed by the power she at least has the chance to do something that seems mildly redeeming. I would sort of like to think that she would be the one to set everything right again, but for some reason I just don't think she will be.

Oh, and bravo to the poster with the Restless commentary. Very fitting.

Spirit - corrupted
Heart - broken or maybe unable to love
Mind - betrayed by logic
Hand - paralyzed with apathy

And the fun just keeps on comin'.

But wouldn't it also follow, given all that, that there would have to be some kind rekindling of those basic assets in each of them.

That Willow's spirit, even for being corrupted somehow manages to prevail in the end.

And Xander's heart finds the ability to love despite everything.

And Giles' mind helps him find the answer.

And Buffy's hand, in the end, once again finds the strength and will to fight back.

God, I really hope so.

Maybe, somehow, since we are seeing what is probably much of the Restless prophecies coming forward the First Slayer will somehow be involved in all this before it's all said and done. Wasn't there a spoiler somewhere about tribe members being cast or something like that?

In Restless, when Xander's Dad was berating him, he said something like "the line ends here, with us. You can't change that, you don't have the heart." I always wondered if that could mean that somehow it's actually the line of Slayers' that's ultimately in danger and that Xander somehow does have the heart to change it.

Maybe by loving Anya, even as Anyanka, he inspires her to change everything and that's how he has the heart to change everything even though his own heart was being ripped out, by Anya's sacrifice.

I've got my window seat on the ScullyBus and I ain't givin' it up for nothin'!

But, for the record, I agree with those that say this whole 'oh, lets show sex between Will and Tara and then kill one of them' just sounds like a Martiism to me.

Ari