The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe Willow & Tara Forever

by **the literary exterminator** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 7:41 pm

Well, according to the Nielsen people, sweeps this year is from April 25 - May 22, so my bets on the last four episodes are:

Ep 19: April 30
Ep 20: May 7
Ep 21: May 14
Ep 22: May 21

Not official, but I'd bet money on it. Also, they might want to lead into it with an April 23rd ep, but that would just be a guess. Note, however, that we did not have four Feburary sweeps eps this year, but a lot of that was due to Womens' Figure Skating.

[This message has been edited by the literary exterminator (edited March 10, 2002).]quote:

by **Litewraith** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 7:43 pm

Hello all, this is my first post here although I have been lurking for about a year or so now. And this recent news has been incredibly depressing for me too, believing Willow and Tara as the only couple on the show that are truly in love. However I don't think its the end for Tara not yet, it seems to easy for the writers.

Joss has a thing for causing mass pain and torment (anyone remember what Glory did to Tara?) but killing Tara and driving Willow to outright evil acts seems so obvious and cliche. When I found out about Tara's possible death and Willow's unability to bring her back, my first thought went to what Giles said to Willow earlier this season, that there are several people out there that have the ability to do what Willow did (bring back Buffy) but that Willow would never want to meet them. And with that in mind I remember Rack. Since Rack is more powerful than Willow, and the gods know I would never want to meet him in a dark alley or a lit one for that matter, it would be like Joss to have Willow cut some deal with this devil to have Tara again, maybe the loss of her magic or some other major act of sacrifice or loss. But I don't think Tara's death and Willow's being back will be the end of it, its just to simple, and now I'm depressing myself again, so I just slink back into the shadows.

by **Eric tr** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 7:43 pm

I hear ya mariacomet. I have also been to other boards where people are getting excited about Tara dying and Willow going bad. People like that make me so angry that I can't think straight. That's why I don't post responses to their posts: I would probably say something that I'd regret.

Anyways, just remember this: Joss doesn't cater to what people want, but to what he feels people need. Those other people want these terrible things to happen, but they don't need them to. On the other hand, we need for Tara to be alive and Willow and Tara together. I hope that's a sobering thought.

by **Kittie17** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 7:46 pm

yeah i've read stuff like that too. But i've been at the bronze and many people were mad at Tara's death. I saw many threads about "why don't you kill Dawn!" and all that. I think.. at least an 80% of Buffy Fans, even the ones who are not w/t shipper, don't want Tara to be the BSD.
This is a big mistake...

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Todo lo que necesitamos es sentido comun y eso no puede ser enseñado

by **Under Her Spell** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 7:48 pm

Having Tara get brain-sucked and Willow go after Glory was a good plot-twist. But now all they're doing is repeating that, only with more pain and more evil.

The writers on BtVS have alyway bucked convention, and not done what was expected of them. But this plot is just obvious - Tara dying has been put around as a false spoiler since forever, and Willow going evil the same, since she went up against Glory. Now the writers are, what, getting their ideas from spoilers? Should we be looking back at old spoilers, just in case they come true? Because that looks like that's what M.E. are doing.

by **BBOvenGuy** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 7:48 pm

Oh, crud. I've just realized what they're doing.

Michelle is wrong about two things -

(1) Willow is not the season's Big Bad. All of the Scoobies are facing their own internal Big Bads. In Willow's case it's the dark magic, fueled by her own rage, threatening to consume her. In Xander's case, it's his fear of turning into his father. In Buffy's case, it's the way her attempts to escape real life drove her into sex with Spike.

The thing is, on Buffy at some point near the end, it always looks like the Big Bad is going to win. In Episode 20 last year, Glory took Dawn. In Episode 20 of Season 4, Spike had broken up the Scooby Gang while Adam had killed Forrest and captured Riley. In Episode 21 of Season 3, it looked like Faith had killed Angel. In Episode 21 of Season 2, Angelus had captured Giles while Dru had killed Kendra. In the last episode of Season 1, Buffy died.

So it's only natural that as we approach the ending of Season 6, it's going to look like all the individual internal Big Bads are going to win. Spike tries to rape Buffy, and then goes to get his chip out. Xander has to deal with Anya being a vengeance demon again. And Willow... Willow is so full of rage that the dark magic consumes her. And the only thing that would generate that kind of rage would be killing Tara.

(2) There is one person who can stop Willow. Willow can stop Willow. That's where the "grow up" theme of the season comes into play. At some point, she has to see what she's doing. At the last minute, she'll do something to stop it. Maybe that something is our "reset button" which saves Tara. Maybe that something causes Willow to lose all her powers. Who knows?

I must reluctantly change my opinion about the Episode 20 info being a hoax. I now think the "reset button" scenario is the most likely outcome. How much gets reset remains to be seen - but no matter what, Joss is still going to have an awful lot of explaining to do.

We need to keep digging, folks. We have to get the full story, or as much of it as we can.quote:

by **Nic C** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 7:49 pm

Italiangirl, tommo, thanks for brightening up my otherwise thoroughly depressing night...

I can't tell what the hell Steve DeKnight means about the spoilers, and to be quite frank I don't care because I doubt he'd tell the truth anyway.

There's creating a little illusion, deliberately misleading fans just a little to put them off the scent. Then there's screwing with us simply to enjoy the power. I really hope this is not the latter, because if it is then I'd rather not have anything more to do with a show that treats its fans with such contempt.

So I'm swinging towards 'these had better not be fake spoilers', now...

Sod this. My head hurts, and I've got to be able to function in the morning. I'm going to bed.

Btw, thanks to the Mods for keeping things as calm as possible, and to all the newbies and non-Kittens who've come along to offer support.

But I've had enough.

Nic

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No sun, no moons, no stars over Al-Rassan.

by **Kendahl897** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 7:50 pm

AT LEAST THE HOMOPHOBES WILL BE HAPPY NOW.....THEY HAD CREATED A FIRST IN PRIMETIME TELEVISION, SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF, AND NOW IT SEEMS THEY'RE JUST GONNA FLUSH IT ALL DOWN THE TOILET.......

by **Puff** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 7:56 pm

The literary examiner...thanks for the help. I was worried I wouldn't be in the country for the finale and that would bite

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Beep, beep

by **Wiccagrrl** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 7:58 pm

Bob, darnit, I think you're probably right. Although I'm very worried that no reset is gonna make this mess alright. And I have a hard time seeing how a reset does tie in with "Oh, grow up". (Unless the Scoobs keep the memories of this horrible reality and the mistakes they made) I also am worried that, based on the idea that if "Willow has to stop Willow", we'll get some point where she realizes she physically *could* bring Tara back but has to chose not to, therefore showing her not making the same mistake she did with Buffy. And, I'm not helping, am I??? Goddammit, I'm hating this. A lot!

by **MyStrangersFace** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:00 pm

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

Delurking to post my two cents worth. I am a new BTVS convert. I am also a die-hard XWP fan, and I'm afraid that leaves me with a cynical streak. I'm preparing for the worst, but trying to convince myself it won't get that bad.

I've read all the recent spoilers about Tara's death. My question, after reading them, is will she stay dead? To me, at the core of BTVS, was the friendship between Buffy, Xander & Willow. It's a key component of the show. A dead Tara equals an out of control Willow. An Anya turned demon spells doom for Xander. I don't think the show could survive that. I hope the producers would be smart enough to know that.

There is s spoiler rumor floating around the buffy newsgroup. Here is a cut/paste of the pertinent info:

1. Warren kills Tara, causes Willow to go over the edge with magic and
vengeance
2. Anya and Spike do it in his crypt, while Buffy, Willow, and Xander see it on the Trio's hidden survelliance lair.
3. There is a climactic battle at the end, where Buffy, to save a dead Willow and Xander, must use the Trio's time device to reset time.
4. It works, but everything changes with respect to the characters, the Season essentially never happened (ala Witchblade).
5. Only Dawn b/c of her nature remembers what really happened.

Has anyone seen this? It strikes me as kind of lame, but I could live with it ... especially if it erases some of the season 6 angst. If the season did end this way, one wonders where season 7 would begin? For instance, would Buffy still be dead? If you want to read the entire newsgroup thread, it's called "Supposed S6 Ender -- Spoilers" and was posted by "Silveragent" on the alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer newgroup.

I will say this in closing. If Tara stays dead and Anya turns demon, then I'll call it quits after season 6. I'm not gonna invest myself in another show that specializes in sad endings. XWP cured me of that habit.

by **Under Her Spell** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:04 pm

I hope you're right, Bob. Certainly the idea of Willow just becoming the next big bad is completely at odds with the season, and indeed the show, so far.

Edited to add: I think those are same spoilers we've been reading - and I'd agree they're kinda stupid. I can understand why they'd want to 'reset' this Season, but I cannot believe that a plot device as utterly lame as that would ever be used on BtVS!

So if that's not true, then maybe Tara isn't going to die. Hey, Puff, is there room on the Denial Bus for one more?

[This message has been edited by Under Her Spell (edited March 10, 2002).]

by **Eibhilin** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:08 pm

This is the first time I've ever delurked anywhere so please be kind

I can't express in words how much I will miss Amber Benson; To tell you the truth, Tara's been the only bright spot for me this season. (Please excuse me while I get sappy It was amazing to watch her strength and courage bloom like a flower, in spite of the darkness. I can't help it if I'm an idealist and an optimist, I like to think, no I *need* to believe, that Love, determination and hard work can overcome even the mightiest obstacles. For me Love is Hope, without it, without W/T... well, I can't even comprehend the possibility.

Bob, I think you're right on the money, that ME IS purposely setting the audience up for a fall. They're determined to put Buffy through Hell this year and take us all right along with her by making our lives miserable as well, by smashing all of our expectations and wrecking all of our dreams. The writers and Joss in particular, know exactly what they are doing and they are playing their audience like a well-tuned violin. They even told us outright in the musical that this is the direction they were planning on taking the show. As for whether this is genious or sadism, I'm leaning toward the side of sadism. Its cruel and unusual punishment for loyal fans.

I'm gonna have to agree with you guys who think the light at the end of the tunnel IS a train. Unfortunately, I feel like I've been tied to the tracks

Eibhilin

by **BBOvenGuy** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:10 pm

I don't think the reset will be that big. If the season never happened, then our main characters learn nothing. All of the main characters need to overcome their own Big Bads, and they need to be conscious at the end. Otherwise, there's no guarantee that they won't make the same mistakes over again.

And that, ironically, is one reason why it makes sense to kill Tara. She's already a grown up. She doesn't have any internal Big Bads to conquer, so she doesn't have to be there in the final confrontation.

Sometimes it really sucks to have my brain.

quote:

by **cachaco** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:20 pm

As long as we're on an even more pessimistic jag, Bob (since you are wise and know a thing or two about TV production), what do you think about the idea that not renewing Amber's contract is a cost-savings measure brought on by the lack of ratings pick-up after the move from WB? The news stories last year at the time of the move made a big deal about how the WB didn't want to pay the hefty license fee, but that UPN ended up paying even more than what the WB had been. Now, I don't think of UPN as the most financially stable network in the universe, and as much as landing Buffy has been a boost for them, I don't know (and I mean that literally) that the ratings have been all that much better than what they were on the WB. Add in the general slowness of ad revenues post-9/11, and it seems to me like ME and 20th Century Fox would be under some pressure to cut costs. Maybe it's for this reason that Amber's contract might not be renewed, and we hear all these rumors about Anya getting killed off?!? 'Cause being fucked over by the bean-counters makes a whole lot more sense to me as a rationale for this nonsense than the alternative - that they really mean it and want to do this to all the fans. Am I off my rocker here?

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PASTURE: See... that is, where you are a mockup. With I think on..., you grew up to what, and... then regard I, which you form... it me are proud. It educates me to love you more.

[This message has been edited by cachaco (edited March 10, 2002).]

by **Under Her Spell** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:27 pm

I'm falling increasingly into denial. The more I read these spoilers, the less plausible they become.

Joss said that S6's motto was 'grow up' - that, as you say, has surely to be about facing their inner demons. And there's a big difference between 'grow up' and 'f**k up, then just use a time machine to reset everything'. That's not character progression.

Here's a quote from Willow in Dopplegangland - "I see now where the path of vice leads... she messed up everything she touched. I don't ever wanna be like that." Willow has already seen her evil self. That's why I can't see her going evil - I can see her, unfortunately, going crazy after Tara is killed, but I cannot see her becoming a 'big bad'.

I suspect there's a kernel of truth in these rumours - but I think the time machine stuff and the 'Willow going evil' is just M.E.'s smokescreen. However, unfortunately it looks to me like the only part of the spoilers that are believeable is Tara's death. For the simple reason that it's too cruel to put about as a false spoiler. 'Tara's a demon', yeah, 'Tara's going to go mad', yeah. But not 'Tara's going to die'. That's nasty.

Edited to change my smiley - I pressed the wrong key

[This message has been edited by Under Her Spell (edited March 10, 2002).]

by **Karzia** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:28 pm

Exactly my point. Heaven forbid we should actually allow a HAPPY Gay/Lesbian couple, no they have to be a) unhappy and mornful B) Bad guys C) killed off before the "happy normal" people ride off into the suset.

I have fianily figured out why this is pissing me off, it is because afterall is said and done this "kill off T and make W bad smacks of commanality, same shit differant show. Just once I would like to see a happy ending for all, gay or straight.

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Ad astea per astaquote:

by **Karzia** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:29 pm

Exactly my point. Heaven forbid we should actually allow a HAPPY Gay/Lesbian couple, no they have to be a) unhappy and mornful B) Bad guys C) killed off before the "happy normal" people ride off into the suset.

I have fianily figured out why this is pissing me off, it is because afterall is said and done this "kill off T and make W bad smacks of commanality, same shit differant show. Just once I would like to see a happy ending for all, gay or straight.

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Ad astea per astaquote:

by **lurker1.0** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:29 pm

I gotta agree with Bob now.

It's starting to make more sense to believe that these spoilers are true, but will be somehow rectified before the end of the season, then just dismissing them and existing in denial until the end of the season. Through everything, I have to say that I still have faith in Joss and the writers. Tho at the moment it's a very very thin line of faith.

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Nothing in this world is more important then strapping yourself to a wooden plank and hurtling down a mountain side at 60 km/h

by **BBOvenGuy** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:30 pm

Well, this is where Joss has really screwed up.

Killing Tara has nothing to do with the lesbian nature of the relationship. It's simply the trigger for Willow's rage. You could have Willow still be with Oz and then kill Oz, and you'd get the same result.

Unfortunately, since it's Tara who's Willow's lover now, Joss & co. have walked right into the very lesbian cliche they always swore they would never do. They're going to have a lot of explaining to do if they want to recover from such a major mistake. I mean, Joss supposedly plans these seasons out well in advance. Are we supposed to believe he didn't see the corner he was painting himself into?
quote:

by **Karzia** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:30 pm

Exactly my point. Heaven forbid we should actually allow a HAPPY Gay/Lesbian couple, no they have to be a) unhappy and mornful B) Bad guys C) killed off before the "happy normal" people ride off into the suset.

I have fianily figured out why this is pissing me off, it is because afterall is said and done this "kill off T and make W bad smacks of commanality, same shit differant show. Just once I would like to see a happy ending for all, gay or straight.

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Ad astea per astaquote:

by **Karzia** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:31 pm

Exactly my point. Heaven forbid we should actually allow a HAPPY Gay/Lesbian couple, no they have to be a) unhappy and mornful B) Bad guys C) killed off before the "happy normal" people ride off into the suset.

I have fianily figured out why this is pissing me off, it is because afterall is said and done this "kill off T and make W bad smacks of commanality, same shit differant show. Just once I would like to see a happy ending for all, gay or straight.

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Ad astea per astaquote:

by **Karzia** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:32 pm

Exactly my point. Heaven forbid we should actually allow a HAPPY Gay/Lesbian couple, no they have to be a) unhappy and mornful B) Bad guys C) killed off before the "happy normal" people ride off into the suset.

I have fianily figured out why this is pissing me off, it is because afterall is said and done this "kill off T and make W bad smacks of commanality, same shit differant show. Just once I would like to see a happy ending for all, gay or straight.

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Ad astea per astaquote:

by **Karzia** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:32 pm

Exactly my point. Heaven forbid we should actually allow a HAPPY Gay/Lesbian couple, no they have to be a) unhappy and mornful B) Bad guys C) killed off before the "happy normal" people ride off into the suset.

I have fianily figured out why this is pissing me off, it is because afterall is said and done this "kill off T and make W bad smacks of commanality, same shit differant show. Just once I would like to see a happy ending for all, gay or straight.

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Ad astea per astaquote:

by **Karzia** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:36 pm

Sorry bout the duplicat post folks, this thread is so active that I am timing out on my responses, and my server is automaticly resending them, I will just lurk a while till the trafic slows.

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Ad astea per asta

New thread here

[Note: This message has been edited by xita]

The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe Willow & Tara Forever

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