NEVER in the "cast" lineup? (until the episode she was killed, of course) Was this malicious intent from Joss, or an oversight, or *what?* Was this ever addressed by any of the show creators?

joss just has a really evil sense humour that's what makes him so...likeable.

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If you're gonna get up, you might as well get up with me - Tegan and Sara

Saving Myself

It's a perfect example of the belief of many psychologists that some elements of "humor" are not very far from cruelty. For many centuries, "practical jokes" were considered an acceptable outlet for the expression of cruelty and/or hostility (in Medieval and Renaissance Europe, many people actually died as a result of "humor").

Hahah oooright.
Yeah, I do know that Joss had intended to have somebody in the lineup on the episode they were killed, but does that mean he was holding out on putting Tara in there for the express purpose of playing a cruel practical joke? For all two seasons, in which she was a big contributor? Evil, *petty* genius, then, I guess...
Anyway, the main point of the question wasn't the practical joke itself, it was the fact that Amber Benson wasn't in the lineup. :/

And the answer, which Amber herself has noted in several interviews, was that it was her choice not to be listed in the credits, because if she did, she would have had to be on site and on call during all work hours. Instead, this allowed her the freedom to be able to work on her own outside projects when she was not needed on set- things like Chance and GOA scripting. As to the final credit listing in her actual final episode, that can be seen as either a terribly bad decision to ramp up the expectation of the audience, or one that was done to give her credit for her role in the show. I have seen both perspectives discussed and I fall on the side of a really bad decision.

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He hurt my nose!

haha whew... yeah, I figured *somebody* must have addressed it sometime but I've done my share of Amber-interview-stalking and I never saw it. Thanks for telling me! My sense of righteous indignation has faded somewhat.

Though wouldn't she get more money if she was part of the cast? Funny lady.

And as for the *intention* of listing her in the credits, I'm pretty damn certain it was a joke on Joss's part; he said in an interview that he'd intended that friend of Xander's who was turned into a vampire and staked in the pilot, he'd thought to put him in the opening credits, but he couldn't because of budgetary concerns or something. Though that's considerably different than in Amber's case...
*sigh* *trying to put down righteous indignation again*

http://www.whedon.info/Amber-Benson-Buf ... eries.html


"P- What was it like to be in the opening credits of ’Seeing red’?

"A- It was sad. It was really upsetting.

"P- We knew you wanted to be in the credits

"A- I didn’t want to be in the credits that way. I think that... I mean. It was a Joss things, you know how Joss is he likes to toy with everybody. But I don’t know...[shrugs]"

RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION FLARING!!

(i decided to do a thorough google search on the subject)

I remain in the camp of "it's because Whedon is an asshole".

Tim

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Visit my Willow and Tara page! http://timbrannan.blogspot.com/p/willow-tara.html
Tara: "My whole life has been 'Tara, don't use your magic.' 'Tara, hide your powers.' 'Tara you will scare someone.' But you tried to hurt and then kill Willow. So maybe it is time I showed everyone just how powerful I am."
- The Dragon and the Phoenix, Episode 7: The Road to Hell

Did any of you ever consider that maybe it was done to HONOR Tara. One last time, before they killed her. Not just for Amber Benson, but also for Tara. She was called family in the episode family on her birthday, she was always told she was family. But she was finally brought back into the family and accepted. She was back living in the house basically, her and willow finally together, they knew they were going to kill her. It was Taras last hurah! He did it as a tribute to her fans, as a good bye to her, and to Honor her character one last time. Its a big deal for her to be in the cast like that. And you know what, maybe Amber said all those things because she was never actually asked to be in the cast and she did it because sometimes its less embarrasing to say you didnt want something then to admit you were never asked. Like ifyour not invited to a birthday party most just say i couldnt go or i didnt want to, rather then i was never actually invited. Dont look at is as a bad thing. Sure it gave some false sense of hope and security. But this is Joss Whedon, would you love him if he was any other way. In this case i see it as a good thing. Taras farwell, it was well deserved for her to be in the cast credits, and very honorable for him to do that. He could have killed her off and then ppl would be complaining Tara never got her dues, she was in so many episodes but never in the cast credits.

... which is why it's upsetting. Why wouldn't she be asked to be in the cast? Oz was in the credits immediately, when he and Willow got together it was BOOM. So...
It's homophobia! Against a straight person. Simply ridiculous.
Also, her character had such potential. Great actress, excellent, complex character, and irregular relationship-- totally fodder for the crazy writings. But only one episode really delved into her character at all ("Family"), and the relationship drama was only peripherally examined in "New Moon" and "Tough Love"-- in uh, one scene, a few lines, of each. (Okay, maybe in "New Moon" it was mentioned in two scenes: When Willow came out to Buffy, and when Buffy and Riley talked about Willow's atypical relationships... still. Barely. Oh and also in "Checkpoint," when the Watcher questions W&T about their "relationship".)
So, it's not that there isn't fodder, it's probably that the networks and the show, with its constituency, couldn't handle too deep an exploration into that area-- so they avoided it. Playing safe, totally get that-- Not the writers' fault.
HOWEVER. Still homophobic.

Also I can't imagine Amber being that juvenile.... If she really said that she didn't want to be in the cast, but was simply not asked. BUT it would be a good way to deflect the question, to say that it was better for her not to be in the cast anyway. She's good at that.
*shrug*
I better stop ranting before I get myself too worked up...

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Oh. Just want to say, I really do appreciate how offhandedly the show treated the relationship-- as it should be. Wasn't asking for on-show homophobes or anything. Also, very sweet how they don't fight-- perfect.
But there are other ways to explore a relationship. I mean, it was all pretty um... private. I mean, here Buffy's shagging Riley every other episode, and now that W&T are officially together, how often are they... even shown doing spells together? They just sit in the corner, and Tara's quiet, and when things get dicey she's just Willow-sidekick, to give Willow's spells some extra punch.
*sigh*
I knew I should have stopped while I was ahead..

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I mean, she's a WITCH, dammit! COME ON!!

Hey, this is an interview with Alyson in australia. Not sure if it's any help, but it does address a fraction of what you've been saying, the whole lack of action between our two favourite lesbians! These days the networks probably wouldn't have a problem with exploring the relationship further.

Interviewer: Obviously, the big story line in Buffy, the season we've just had most recently in Australia, was that you became a lesbian. Was that something you thought was going to be controversial at the time?

Alyson: Um , well, when i first started reading the scripts and everything, um, I noticed how delicately they were handling the Tara Willow scenes, and they weren't trying to exploit it or anything, and, so I hoped that people would just embrace it as, you know, two characters who really care about each other, you know, instead of like (puts on a voice) 'Oh it's two girls'.

Interviewer: Cos you actually don't kiss whilst onscreen or anything do you?

Alyson: There's actually a lot of rules that we have to look out for, and one of them is that we can't kiss...so...

Interviewer: Did you see that as a bad thing, or a good thing? What did you think about it?

Alyson: Ah, well I kind of think it's hypocritical because, you know, you've go Buffy and riley who are humping like bunnies and we can't even do a little kiss!

Interviewer: Yeah

Alyson: But you know, I understand. We're on very early in America so...

Interviewer: Did you cop it from both people? was there a conservative backlash against the show because of it?

Alyson: Not really, because the people that, um, have the problem with it, they aren't usually the people that watch our show anyway.

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If you're gonna get up, you might as well get up with me - Tegan and Sara

Saving Myself

I think player 4 life was trolling there, and I don't see much need for anyone to spend much time responding. As I noted above, Amber herself decided not to accept a credit listing. This is an important point, because under union laws, moving to a full-time credit has implications for how you are treated, and paid, on set. As I said, if she were in the full credits, she would have had to be on set when they filmed- and that means 20 hours per day on set, 7 days a week. So Amber opted out. This allowed her the time to do other work. When the shifted her to the full credit for her final episode, by union law that also affected her salary, making her last episode the one where she earned the most money ($8000 per ep prior versus $16000 for Seeing Red, as has been reported in the past but not confirmed).

The rest of player's post is silly.

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He hurt my nose!

This is why we don't talk about the show this way anymore. We aren't going to debate Joss' motivations here.

Seems pretty much settled, so this thread will be closed now.

Anyone who wants to see the discussion that occurred at the time can read the archives at the old board.

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just wanted to put the last word on this for anyone who sees this
http://www.joeutichi.com/profile/joss-whedon-interview/