originally posted by BBOvenGuy:

quote:

---

Okay, April, this is all your fault!

---

bob, i resent that! i REFUSE to take the blame for *any* of the travesty that was ER last night. i absolutely refuse. because trust me, if *i* were in charge of ER, you would have seen a *very* different episode. the words "hello, gay now!" would have been featured very prominently. as well as a scene where romano is forced to get down on his knees and beg kim for forgiveness for being such an a**hole.

ahem. but this is the "the body" discussion thread, right? i'm about to go rewatch it right now...i'm sure i'll have tons more to say when i get back...

but really, how is it my fault that you watched a show, when all i did was say how horrible it was, hmm? if i say "never eat chopped liver, it's disgusting!" and then you immediately go out and eat chopped liver and find it disgusting, is it my fault that you ate it?

Dr. L (that's Kim, right?) was being accused of sexual harrassment by this semi-crazed(?) woman from a couple of episodes ago (I think). Dr. Weaver (Kerry, yeah?) was all flustered and concerned about their secret romance being revealed. I wasn't exactly following 100%, but I think Kerry ended up denying everything in front of everybody and it got Kim understandably ticked off.

The point I noticed most was when the detective interviewed Dr. Weaver (sorry to keep switching names back and forth but I must stress that I don't ordinarily watch this show!) and asked "What's your relationship?" and immediately in my head I heard "We're in love... we're lovers... we're lesbian gay-type lovers!" But alas, that was not what I heard on my TV.

Now, I realize that Willow can be naturally loud about who she is. Look no farther than this week's "big honkin' Menorah" and you'll see what I mean. And Willow did go through her confused/struggling period where she hid Tara from everyone. But even so, I still find W/T to be much more charming abd much more loving a couple.

Oh, one other thing about ER was that I did like the fact that they know what Child Life Specialists are. My sister is one.

However, it is true that Willow and Tara haven't really had to deal with any societal homophobia yet. One of these days they'll have to - and I'm sure they will as soon as Joss comes up with an appropriately metaphorical monster for the job.

First off, I am suspending final judgement until we see how the K/K storyline fleshes out. But there were things I liked very much about last night's episode:
1) Kerry's disability and her struggle to gain acceptance were highlighted very poignantly. And I could understand where she was coming from (it was very much in keeping with her character) and how it would contribute to her inability to "come out" and be more supportive of Kim (doesn't mean I wasn't cringing and fuming inside).
2) When you're questioning your sexuality and/or coming out dealing with your internalized homophobia is a huge part of it. I've known relationships that have failed because someone couldn't overcome their internalized homophobia -- and we saw very painfully and harshly the damaging effects of it on Kim/Kerry's relationship. There haven't been many (if any) storylines dealing directly with that on TV.
3) The effects of homophobia on your professional life are vast and very real. Dr.Legaspi's situation is horribly common.

I would have liked to have seen Dr. Legaspi counter ROmano's homophobia and his labelling her decision to come out to the young woman as foolish and inappropriate. For example, I would have loved to have seen Legaspi ask Romano if he was going to order shrinks not to wear their wedding bands because that's personal. There is disagreement within social work/psychiatry about disclosing any personal information to clients, including your sexual orientation to a questioning or gay client. In my past life as a counselor I have encountered such situations. Fortunately I had supervisors who recognized how coming out to a client can be professional, clinically appropriate, and helpful. So, for these personal life experience reasons, I liked seeing this explored.

I know a lot of people are outraged by Kerry's behavior in the episode. And I felt irritated with her, but I also thought it was utterly believable. Her deeply anguished conflict really moved me and rang true. It's so easy when you've been out for awhile to judge or scorn someone in the closet (I've done it). Sometimes I forget how being out is a position of privilege -- many people would lose their jobs, get beaten up in their neighborhoods, face sexual harrassment at work, etc. by being out and proud. (Being "out" is also very much a Western construct but I digress).

Of course I wanted Kerry to make a declaration and for Romano to get his ass kicked. But grappling with your sexuality is messy and scary -- especially for a woman who has fought ostracization for her disability.

There's also a lot of joy involved with falling in love and being queer (and ER has shown some moments of pleasure re: the relationship) but I rather like that the writers are delving into the messiness. I'm interested to see where the writers go with this before I make up my mind as to how I feel about this storyline.

So, did I love last night's ER? No. But I didn't hate it. It touched on interesting and worthwhile things. What I did despise was the way they portrayed Kim's lesbian friends in a previous episode.

I'd have liked it a lot better if she hadn't filled the idiotic lesbian stereotype of being a smoker, from a family full of boys,
and a girl who used target practice as a way to blow off steam. But still she was a great character - no nonsense, very outspoken, confident, didn't care what anyone else thought, very adament in standing up for what she believed in. She was quite a firecracker and I liked her

There was a storyline about a failed sexual-harassment suit in season 5 (Elizabeth Corday was the other plantiff, but she pulled out due to fear of what might happen if she went agaisnt Romano). I don't think we've heard from her since.

Jorja Fox, the actress, is currently on CSI.

I only bring this up because I wouldn't feel comfortable going over to the other board
(since I don't watch ER anymore and even when I did I could have cared less about Kerry Weaver - most people don't remember it, but she was first introduced as a villain/antagonist that everyone hated, and I guess it stuck with me). But I still love Jorja and think Maggie Doyle was a great character

I could have cared

------------------
"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

and just to clarify on bbovenguy's synopsis, last week there was a tremendously horrible train wreck... and at the end of last week, we learn it was caused by a girl who had parked her car on the tracks, trying to kill herself because she thinks shes gay. of course, her injuries are the least serious of anyone's... so thats why kerry calls dr legaspi down to talk with her. and when she comes out to this girl, the girl kind of freaks and then accuses her of sexually harrassing her to move the heat off herself.

i just do hope it turns out well in the end.

rocketdyke

I am still watching The Body, I find my grief about Joyce has lessened adn I can just enjoy the kiss. And it was quite a kiss. And I am able to see it as a total shipper's episode. How does this rank for people.

1. The Body
2. Family
3. NMR
4. WAY
5. Hush

Of course there's no such thing as single "gay storyline," just as there's no such thing as a single "straight storyline." Willow and Kerry are different characters. Tara and Kim are different characters. They live in different places and are at different points in their lives. And the characters who come after them will be different as well. There's nothing wrong with that - I rather like it, actually.

Personally, my #1 problem with the story on ER is that it's on ER. My personal tastes, nothing more. I do hope there are some people who enjoy the story and who get something out of it. I'd like to think that Kim and Kerry are capable of inspiring, encouraging and educating people in the same way that Willow and Tara have been.

i finally got to rewatch the body today. the acting just blows me away. really, this is some of the finest work done on the show by any of these actors.

i must say though, my favorite scene after the kiss is the one with tara and buffy. it's just a perfect scene. tara's character is written perfectly, and both of their reactions are just so dead on.

I'm late entering the conversation (life got in the way) so I don't have anything new to add. But I feel like babbling anyway.

I thought "The Body" was the most raw hour of TV I have ever seen. Of course it was manipulative -- aren't all stories? And really, how many NEW ideas are there about death or life? I don't think that's the point. The point (for me anyway) is how an idea (even an OLD idea )is executed and if there's emotional resonance. "The Body" was deeply disturbing and affecting; in my mind that's good television... critics be damned.

I liked that the very physical aspect of death was highlighted. I felt ill when we abruptly cut from Buffy and Joyce slicing the Cajun pie to the harsh close up of Joyce's face, dead. The sickening cracking sound when Buffy broke her mother's rib while trying to perform CPR was also terribly powerful and jolting. I loved how almost all of the 4 "acts" began and ended with either Joyce's corpse or the sketch of the "negative space" body (one exception -- there may have been more -- was when they ended the act that took place at Willow's dorm with the shot of Xander getting a ticket for double parking).

I thought SMG was brilliant. The moment when she told Giles that they weren't supposed to move "the body" and her horror at realizing that she now viewed her mother's body as "the body" (as opposed to her reaction when the 911 operator said "the body is cold?") was so wrenching and well-acted.

I was also totally taken with Buffy's expression when she told Giles she was "waiting" (for the coroner). Something about her tone and facial expression moved me. She seemed simultaneously childlike, vulnerable, and aged.

I loved the absence of a musical score, esp. the use of the wind chimes.

I really enjoyed seeing a glimpse of Dawn in school. And I thought the "negative space" comments in her art class spoke to the structure of this episode about death -- now there's this body, literally framing most of the acts, and here is the enormous space of loss and grief and tender intimacy around it. Negative space could also refer to the awkward, poignant silences between and with people facing death (esp. when you strip away the artifice of a musical score). This was especially evident in that wonderful scene between Buffy and Tara in the waiting room as well as the shots of Xander and Anya in the car, Tara at the window of Willow's dorm room, and WIllow holding a piece of clothing. (BTW the shot of Xander and Anya in the car made me think of the scene of them driving in "Restless" and Willow's anxiety over her clothing seemed to echo her dream where Buffy kept telling her to take her costume off and Will insisting she needed it).

The kisses (I insist on plural because there was more than one!) were beautiful and so organic to the moment and to the episode. I think earlier in the previous thread there was some debate about whether one could call them "romantic" and that they seemed more about "comfort." And I agreed with April's definition of romance. While our definitions of these terms are highly subjective, I thought the kisses were romantic and comforting and passionate. I also loved that after the kisses they were still physically intimate and touching (Tara caressing Willow) and I loved the "strong like an amazon" dialogue. It was such a raw and intimate moment that was not hurried. Joss, Amber, and Aly get it done (400 takes and all!)

I could go on and on forever. But one last thing: I thought the ending to the episode was perfect... Dawn reaching out for the body (not her mother, she's "not there") but we don't get to see her make contact.

I have a question (and am not sure if this was discussed alread). Is it routine for the "rating" of a show to flash in the corner of your TV screen midway through the episode? Because I got TV-14 LSV on the upper left hand corner of my screen at the beginning of the "act" where Willow and Tara eventually kiss. I thought maybe that's why it was there. Unless it's routine to show such a rating in the middle of the episode and I just never noticed before.

EDITED TO ADD:

Many people have deservedly heaped praises on Anya's monologue but I have to add mine to the chorus. I think some of the most compelling emotions dwell in the quotidian -- the seemingly insignificant details that comprise our daily lives. When you tackle a subject as huge as Death, it's even more poignant and wrenching to use "small" so-called "trivial" details to speak to the enormity of loss. And Anya's monologue about Joyce not ever drinking fruit punch, eating eggs, brushing her hair, yawning again perfectly captured that. Emma delivered that moment wonderfully.

I hate when it turns out your post is the last one on a page.

quote:

---

Originally posted by judy:

The kisses (I insist on plural because there was more than one!) were beautiful and so organic to the moment and to the episode. I think earlier in the previous thread there was some debate about whether one could call them "romantic" and that they seemed more about "comfort." And I agreed with April's definition of romance. While our definitions of these terms are highly subjective, I thought the kisses were romantic and comforting and passionate. I also loved that after the kisses they were still physically intimate and touching (Tara caressing Willow) and I loved the "strong like an amazon" dialogue. It was such a raw and intimate moment that was not hurried. Joss, Amber, and Aly get it done (400 takes and all!)

---

Ok, I shall call it the kisses as well. Hmm.. wow I loved the way you put this because I saw all that in the kisses as well. And yes it was a very raw and intimate moment. It's very hard to imagine this scene, in fact of the 23049499999 ways I imagine the kiss happening, this scenario probably didn't come to my mind. It was very much about them and their relationship. And the touching at the end of the kisses just sealed it for me. And the touching before the kiss as well. You have Amber's hands all over Willow and touching her hair and her ears and her cheeks and when it's all done, the kisses, she is still touching her.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SeanGaffney:
[B]About the kiss, I just liked the fact that it didn't feel like a first kiss. It was to the audience, but to Willow and Tara, this is just a loving way to calm Willow down, using a mouth that knows ALL about calming Willow down. It was an experienced kiss. ^_^

---

Yes, i think so too! And the kiss was to fast!!!
It was for us the first kiss, but not for Willow and Tara....so looked that!

------------------
WILLOW: We're friends.
TARA: Good friends.
WILLOW: Girlfriends, actually.
TARA: Yes, we're girlfriends.
WILLOW: We're in love. We're ... lovers.We're lesbian, gay-type lovers.

Everyone's comments are so insightful -it's amazing what I missed watching this episode the first time through (for e.g. Willow's mouthed "I love you" to Tara). I am pretty much the sole unapologetic Will/Tara 'shipper in my circle of family and friends, so it's great to read all the Kittens' postings.

Ah. So nice ot have fears laid to rest so thoroughly. Even W/T detracors (well, all but the most unrecoverably hateful or delusional) have had to admit that the kiss was wonderful, and most importantly, not "first kiss" seeming.

In fact, given Amber's comments about kissing Aly about 400 times, I wonder if all that repetition was in part to sort of "break the kiss in", make the one we finally saw a little more old and..casual isn't the right word, but you know what I'm getting at. Lots of repetition to make the kiss we finally see seem like a very familiar thing between them.

------------------
~ Cici

(as opposed to the 23049499999 times that xita has imagined...lol...)

anyway, there are many of us who would pay small fortunes to get our hands on the outtakes from that scene...

sean, that phrase "using a mouth that knows ALL about calming willow down". my god. how perfectly stated. damn.

Man, could this show possible have anymore code words for "the sex"?

Honestly, I just wanted to put in a few words about ER and BUFFY, and Willow and Tara. Alright, I occassionally watch ER. Every once in awhile I catch it, and try to make sense of it. On Thursday, I caught ER. At first, when it was over, I was a little shell shocked. But, when I sat down and thought about it, I wanted to congratulate the writers. For the first time in television history, there was a show that accurately portrayed the agony of being in the position that Kerri and her friend are in. I have much sympathy for both of them. But Kerri has a valid reason to be nervous -- it's hard to be gay, out, and successful in a "more professional" field today. Furthermore, whereas some of the fans of the show might be quite comfortable with their sexualities, bear in mind this is Kerri's first time. I would doubt she's even sure of her own feelings yet. That's pretty much all I wanted to add about ER.

On to Buffy... I have so much respect for Joss Whedon and his creation. I have been a fan since episode one, and I have never deviated. Willow and Tara is one of the most incredibly sweet romances on television -- whatever the sexuality. More importantly, they are real. The road to romance for them has been rocky, but worth the wait. I'm so glad I get the privilage of watching them every Wednesday on my television.

Well, that's it from me. Thanks, if you got all the way to here.

-Chance.

if you have a minute, drop by the Introduction Thread where you can introduce yourself and learn more about us! there are some way cool kitties here, as well as some crazy stalkers and mean moderators. it's best to learn which is which.

oh and hey guys, our buddy sarah kuhn already has her review of "the body" up at scifi ign! we all know how much she adores willow/tara and amber (a bit *too* much, if you ask me), so click on the link to head over there and see what she has to say!

Another thing to focus on during repeat viewings is vocal tone. I've watched the kissing scene over and over just to hear Willow's "Tara" and Tara's "Shhh. Darling" (or: "Shhh, darling" - I won't quibble). And notice the tightness in Anya's voice when she says "understand" in "But I don't understand.", before going on about the stupidity of mortality. That's the moment when Willow sees that Anya's hurting, not being tactless.

------------------
Tara: Shh.
Willow: Tara...
Tara: Shh. Darling...

Buffy,
the Vampire Slayer
"The Body"
***SPOILER WARNING***
Reviewed by Christine I. Speakman
"Mom."
"Mom."
"mom."
"mommy."
Joyce Summers, Buffy's mom, is dead. Not death by Glory, nor by vampire, nor by any monster; just death by natural causes. An aneurysm in the brain.
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" is a fictional television show about a young woman killing vampires and other monsters. Each week her and her friends, the Scooby Gang, get into trouble hunting down that week's evil; escapism at its best. Every so often we get terrific filming, wonderful acting, terrific writing, exciting fights, scenes that move you to any emotion you want to name. And every so often we get outright brilliant episodes, "Hush," comes to straight to my mind.
This week's episode, "The Body," was more.
The first thing I noticed was the silence. The scenes were too quiet, but not an absolute quiet. These scenes became startling real when normal sounds, the zipper closing the body bag, were heard. A rib cracking during CPR. The silent flat line of the EKG machine, just the line no sound. Joyce's clothes being cut from her dead body. Hearing only the snapping of the bloody surgical gloves being removed after the autopsy. Watching the sheet being placed over Joyce's face. Buffy and Dawn looking up from the floor at Joyce's now uncovered face. Haunting.
Pain was made tangible: Dawn's cries and collapse as Buffy breaks the news of their mother's death; Willow's need to keep changing, to find the top Joyce liked. Anya's verbal stumbles, not understanding what she's required to do, the whys of death, the hurt. Xander's need to blame something, fight something, do anything. Not cheap tear-jerking scenes but honest grief.
Sarah Michelle Gellar's Buffy was incredible. From last week's closing, and this week's opening scene of simply saying "mommy" to her sudden calmness to her shock of referring to her mom as "the body." Commanding simplicity.
I'm not familiar with the behind the scene terminology; however, I am well aware that without those talents and mastery, this wouldn't have been the episode it was. Together everyone working on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" has raised the bar of excellence.
Just one more little thing, did anyone else noticed that we didn't actually see Dawn touch Joyce. Hmmmm

the mighty big tv review of "the body" is up. and they actually manage to say some funny things while recapping such a horribly sad episode. observe:

quote:

---

Willow mentions that they need to hit the road, and in the background Xander agrees while Willow, without fanfare, silently mouths "I love you" at Tara. And THANK GOD that they finally seem to be treating their relationship with the subtlety it deserves. With the way things have been going this season, I had worried that Willow would someday say to Tara, "You know, I love you [turning to the camera] because I am GAY! You heard me, world! I dive the muff. I'm GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY!"

---

hee! is it so wrong that i would actually sort of enjoy hearing her make a declaration like that? tongue-in-cheek, of course. or tongue in something, anyway. ahem.

enjoy the review!

I also talked to a good friend of mine tonight who caught the episode last week. She was saying how much the kisses moved her because they spoke to the depth and intimacy of Willow and Tara's relationship.

I have cool friends.

Joss: brilliant but mean.

------------------
"Sometimes I go online, but...everyone's spelling is really bad. It's depressing."

I want the world to know I've seen it.

But most of all, I wanted my gf to know I'd seen it.

I was upset the most by Anya. Her voice cracking when she said 'understand' and then that huge speech she launched into as though it was the first time she'd ever seen death. The irony of her situation didn't escape me, but her innocence and raw emotion was what touched me.

I hate seeing Willow cry. I can only thank God that she's got Tara there to comfort her.

Sigh.....

quote:

---

THANK GOD that they finally seem to be treating their relationship with the subtlety it deserves. With the way things have been going this season, I had worried that Willow would someday say to Tara, "You know, I love you (turning to the camera) because I am GAY! You heard me, world! I dive the muff. I'm GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY!"

---

Okay, yes this made me laugh, but it also made me shake my head and sigh. I think Joss deserves this year's "You just can't win" award. First people complain that Willow and Tara aren't highlighted enough, that their relationship isn't given the respect and exposure it's due, etc., and then when Joss finally starts having Willow be open about who she is he gets slammed for that, too.

Grrr... Have I mentioned how much critics bug me?

The thing it seems that every other week
Joss is putting in some sort of reference
or another - 'preaching to the choir baby',
'gay, lesbian-type lovers' 'hello, gay now',
'sometimes it makes you feel like giving up on men altogether', 'I wish they'd show me the stuff they do together' --- did I get them all? While it's nice to see Willow affirm that she is gay and isn't ashamed of Tara (and vice versa), I believe it is getting a little repetitive. It seems more and more often that Willow and Tara's gayness is being affirmed rather than recognizing their relationship as just like any other.
I mean, the equivalent of it would be if Buffy had stood up every episode and declared
"Riley is my boyfriend and I love him!" Well, not quite. But you get what I mean. I'd rather have W/T stuff in an episode be a private conversation or a romantic moment or something of that sort rather than another WE ARE GAY! reference.

Of course there are several reasons for this.
It's partially a way to inject humor into the episode, partially because of the censors, but msot of all, I think it's Joss thumbing his nose at the shippers and other people in massive denial. The thing is, I really don't care for what the shippers think, and it's clear by now that to a lot of them there's nothing Joss can do to dissuade them.

Okay, so what is my point in all of this? I agree with the reviewer, basically! We know Tara and Willow are two women in a lesbian relationship and that they're not ashamed of that. I don't need to be told that over and over.

Okay, rant over. I mean, these little moments are nice but enough's enough already. JMO.

------------------
"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

I think the turning point may actually have been "I Was Made To Love You," because that was when we didn't get the obvious declarations and instead got things like "Honey, in case you didn't hear me the first six thousand times, no more teleportation spells!" and the business with Willow checking out a girl. Sure, they were blantant declarations done mostly for laughs, but they were of a sort that would have worked with a heterosexual couple, too (and in the case of Willow checking out April, has been done with heterosexual couples since the dawn of time).

I suspect that Joss has turned a corner with W/T now and what we'll see is more of what we've seen in the past two episodes. Things like "Hello, gay now!" were good and necessary at the point where the show and the characters were at the time, but I don't think Joss will go back to them now.

I think Willow's in-your-face gayness is a response to this, and I like it. I like that Willow is out and proud. OTOH, I don't want Willow or Tara to become defined by their sexuality, and it irks me a bit when I see them referred to as "Buffy's lesbian friends." Nobody's calling Xander and Anya "Buffy's straight friends." Subtlety is a virtue...but I really don't think that even one gay reference per ep is necessarily being unsubtle. Not as long as het lovin' continues to play such a major role in the show.

In TV, it's usually a safe assumption that in order to get a message across to an audience, you have to tell them that you're going to tell them, then you have to tell them, then you have to tell them that you told them. I therefore think it likely that Joss will continue to put in W/T couple-y moments to remind the viewers of just exactly how these two women feel about each other. I think they're most likely to be of the more subtle variety, though.

Hmm, maybe in IWMTLY, when she says, "She talks funny."

And I agree that Joss is in a no win situation. When he had them make few or any overt declarations, quite a few W/T fans and folks interested in queer representation in the media criticised him for being timid, for making W/T invisible. And many folks simply did not get it, as recently as three weeks ago, I read posts where folks expressed some sort of surpise that W/T were together.

Yet, if Joss, laboring (as was just re-confirmed by Joss himself) under censorship from the WB, decides to just drive the point home by reminding even the slowest, thickest viewers that W/T are together, then he's being obvious and anvilly. We're blaming the wrong parties here.

If the WB let Joss treat W/T like all the other couples in the first place, then the Buffy writing staff wouldn't have had to go through such contortions to convey that they're together. And if our society wasn't so hateful and hidebound and foolish, then it wouldn't have required repeating it over and over and over, by means of increasingly large verbal hammers, for viwers to Get It.

Another thing that should be pointed out (and I think I have before, maybe even in this same thread... ) is that Willow is always being very loud about who she is. This season we've had "Hello, gay now!" but we've also had "tiny Jewish Santa" and "big honkin' Menorah." Willow's declarations have been entirely in character.

------------------
"I'm going to be a mummy."

Hermiola: I agree with you, but I get the feeling that the Rosenbergs are very much non-practicing Jews. I would like to see something other than lip service paid to Will's Jewishness, though. The only fanfic that I ever started (and never finished) had Willow remembering her bat mitzvah and going to Hebrew school with Jonathan.

I wonder what religion Tara is? If any.

------------------
"I'm going to be a mummy."

Hmmm...I get he impression Tara's family are Fundies; maybe an extreme faction of Baptitst or Methodist. Jehovah's Witnesses would be fun, too;~)

No offense to Christians on the board, JMHO.

I think Willow's folks are like my dad's family; sometimes go to temple, always do the holidays, batmitzvah's etc., proud of their Jewish identity but not overly dogmatic.

I'm wondering if there will ever be a "Willow coming out to her family" reference (or episode). I think Joss has made it clear the Scoobies are the only family that matters.

quote:

---

Originally posted by xita:
This reminds me of that old USEnet thread, Willow and Torah.

---

Oh now, *that* is hilarious. I'm sorry and don't mean to cause offence....but it really is.

Hey Wiccie (yes, I know I'm kind of stalking you) did you realise you wrote Wesbian? Heh heh...I like it.

Willow the Wesbian.

------------------
"I'm going to be a mummy."

Thank you April for sending me the Body and those books. And thank you Xita for sending me the other season five episodes. It is so much better to watch these episodes than to read about them and see the pics. They are so much better even than I had imagined. You have both given me so much, and I don't just mean the stuff you've sent me. Thank you again.

I could say a million things here, but most of it has been said already. Just a quicky comment on this:

quote:

---

originally posted by Xita

Hmm, I think we get a clue to Tara's mom in this episode. Notice in Xander's rant, there's a close up on Tara and she has a weird expression on her face.

---

I noticed that as well. I have a feeling we *will* learn more about Tara's mother in the future. And that there may have been some evil doctor involved.
When Buffy first learned about Joyce's illness, she wanted Willow and Tara to do a healing spell. Tara was very adamant, that doing that would be too dangerous.

TARA:
"Yeah. I've heard stories about people
trying healing spells... If we did
something - it could make things a
lot worse, Buffy."

It sounded like she was speaking from experience, but her looks did not confirm that. Had she been thinking of her mother there, she might have looked a little more uncomfortable. But the look she gives Xander now does suggest something.

Wait and see I guess, time will tell.

my best friend has been watching btvs since the first episode, and willow has always been her favorite character, largely because she's so vocally jewish. (this friend is straight, mind you, and willow's getting together with tara did *nothing* to diminish her willow adoration. i love her so.)

My non-Wiccan friends tease me (with great affection) by calling me wesbian.

At least Susan Ivanova actually did light a Menorah once. And she did that vigil-keeping thing when her father died, with her rabbi right there with her.

Come to think of it, Babylon 5 had a remarkable amount of religion in it, especially when you consider that JMS is an avowed atheist.

I liked the way it underlined Buffy's own mortality. She could protect Joyce from all things demonic but not from something so inherently human. The echo this caused in Anya was positively heartbreaking.

And yes, I agree with garfield. I too have much to thank the kitties for. People who listen and respond, I salute you all.

------------------
"I'm going to be a mummy."

Do you guys think that the Christmas sequence in "The Body" was Buffy's memory of an actual event, or just a quick "fantasy" sequence like Joyce's miraculous recovery or the "My head..." bit?

The reason I ask is that it's a bit hard to fit in within the fifth season chronicle. Given that there is no Riley at the Christmas dinner, it would seem to have taken place after "In The Woods." However, "Triangle," the next episode, seems to establish that Joyce is only just starting to wear clothes (as opposed to the blue bathrobe), kinda indicating to me that she would not have recovered sufficiently to be doing Christmas dinner for eight (counting herself). Unfortunately, "Triangle" takes place after the new semester starts at UC Sunnydale, which would seem to be some time after the holidays.

Maybe I'm being too anal here (hell, I've already edited this message twice! ), and please don't think that I did not enjoy the Christmas sequence (or the episode in general) 'cause I did. I'm just a continuity geek. Hey, maybe Joyce was putting on a brave face for the holidays, and she had a lot of help from her dutiful daughters. I'm easy.

[This message has been edited by CaptMurdock (edited March 12, 2001).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CaptMurdock:
(Thought I would post this question here as opposed to starting a new thread):

Do you guys think that the Christmas sequence in "The Body" was Buffy's memory of an actual event, or just a quick "fantasy" sequence like Joyce's miraculous recovery or the "My head..." bit?

---

I know we may do, but well, that's a given.

Seriously, Buffy would *not* have made *that* up when her mother has just died.

------------------

Garfield, Tarasexual from Amberdam

Leave it to you to notice these things, I agree about the hair, down is the way to go, heh heh. Anyway, nice continuity in this case. However, when Buffy is talking to Xander (when he is fixing that window) it is dark outside. Yet when she gets home it is bright and sunny. She did *not* stay out all night.

Ah well, it is Sunnydale after all, last stop to the hellmouth, a little solar eclipse here and there probably won't even make people blink.

i'll close it and start "the body" thread number three...