Thread Subject: Discussion - S5E16 - "The Body"
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xita posted 02-26-2001 07:32 EST (US)
Here's the place for people who have seen the episode to post their opinions. Opened early for Warduke and any other lucky dog who is Canadian or saw the wildfeed.


I

Need

to

have

a

little

Spoiler

Space.

And as a special treat for you, here's a wallpaper posted at the cross and stake.

sigh

THEY KISSED!

------------------
Tara: Shh.
Willow: Tara...
Tara: Shh. Darling...

Warduke posted 02-26-2001 17:21 EST (US)
I just saw it and this is a very powerful episode, something that I read in the wildfeed, that I thought wouldn’t be big a deal is the lack of a soundtrack…I was wrong, the lack of any music is very dramatic.

The scenes with Buffy finding her mom, the paramedics telling her that she’s dead and Buffy telling Dawn that Joyce is gone are all powerful scenes but for me the most powerful was Willow’s reaction, I just can’t stand to see Willow (or Tara) cry and it just breaks your heart to see her in so much pain, Tara was amazing, she was great with Willow, the kiss was so sweet (very nice! ) and her scene with Buffy was great.

Anya was also great in this ep; the fact that she didn’t know how to act was just, well it was just so Anya

Ok, for those who were wondering how the x-mas flashback conversation went…

Xander – How you doing there Will?…are you in the vomit club too?
Willow – I had too much nog
Tara – Oh baby, want me to rub your tummy?…she likes it when I, oh, stop explaining things

Very sweet scene, Anya also tells an “interesting” Santa story

Also, the scene with Willow running into her dorm room…it was after they all left to go see Buffy, Willow ran back in the room to get her jacket…amazing how some things can seem so different in the trailer...remember the trailer for Family?

april posted 02-26-2001 17:44 EST (US)
i know i'm not supposed to post here yet, since i haven't seen the ep, but...

joss must really really love w/t to give tara lines like the tummy rubbing one. lines, i might add, that he doesn't cut out of his eps the way that they get cut out of other writers'.

oh sigh. 23 hours, 15 minutes. why isn't it tuesday yet???

tvsurfer posted 02-26-2001 17:50 EST (US)

Willow likes Tara to rub her tummy, oh this is just so darn precious!!!!!

thank you Warduke !!!!!!!!!!!

I take it Willow gave Tara a "look" to make her change and end that commentary on tummy rubs?

oh and is it one kiss or are there multiple kisses ?

and if its not too much to ask, how does the dialogue fit with the kiss?

Warduke posted 02-26-2001 19:26 EST (US)
Tvsurfer, that’s exactly what happened, Willow gave her a “that’s just between you and me” look, it was cute and as for the kiss, it was actually three kisses…WOO HOO
The dialog for the kiss was perfect, Willow tells Tara…”Tara, I can’t do this”, then Tara kisses her and says “we can do this”…like I sais…perfect.

I just watched it again and there’s something major that I missed the first time…just before they all get ready to leave to go see Buffy, Willow and Tara stare at each other, they hold hands and then they leave, while still holding hands, now that’s not what I missed, what I missed was when Willow and Tara are staring at each other, take a look at Willow’s lips, you don’t hear anything but you’ll see her lips moving and what she says is…I LOVE YOU…OMG, I can’t believe I missed it the first time, another reason to tape every ep, so you can dissect every W/T moment

Also, when Tara goes to Willow, just before they kiss, the way Willow says Tara’s name, you’ll have to hear it for yourself, it’s so heartbreaking and when Willow mentions Dawn and then she starts to cry and the way she says “little Dawn”, it’s just like when she said Tara’s name, I was teary eyed every time I watched it…which is like a 100 times now…I have to go, I need a tissue

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited February 26, 2001).]

xita posted 02-26-2001 19:51 EST (US)
Oh god, thanks warduke, WOW, I can't wait. Damn this is too much waiting!
wiccie posted 02-26-2001 19:57 EST (US)
Ugh, I can't even wait 24 hrs.!

Warduke, pleeeease - is it 3 kisses including the forehead, or forehead kiss and 3 on the lips?

Thankyouthankyouthankyou!

Zahir posted 02-26-2001 20:02 EST (US)
This is from Ain't It Cool News:


WHAT’S IT CALLED?

“The Body.”

WHO’S RESPONSIBLE?

It was written and directed by series mastermind Joss Whedon. Whedon’s last episode was November’s Tara-centric “Family” (the rerun of which airs next week).

WHAT DOES TV GUIDE SAY?

“After months of fighting and ostensibly overcoming a brain tumor, Joyce (Kristine Sutherland) dies unexpectedly and in a manner seldom seen on Buffywhose overwhelming denial makes fighting the boundless forces of evil look like child's play.”

THE BIG NEWS?

Wah! Hercules “The Strong” weeps like a little girl throughout the final half-hour! He’s watched the episode three times, and it happens every time! Alyson Hannigan makes him lose it, and he can’t get it back until the credits roll!

WELL, HOW DOES THAT WORK?

Hannigan convinces us that Willow is hurting, and we love Willow, and we start hurting too! I defy any true fan of this show to get through “The Body” without Kleenex. It’s as reliable a trigger for tears as the ending of “It’s A Wonderful Life.”

SO IT’S SAD?

The cast gets a whole different kind of workout this week, and I’d put their performances against anything nominated for an Oscar this year. If this episode doesn’t garner a boatload of Emmy nominations, I’m going to start my own ****ing television academy! God bless Joss Whedon and God bless the United States of America!

IT’S NOT FUNNY?

No, it’s funny too. There’s some hilarious “Godfather II”-evoking material early in the first act (particularly some geniusy Willow lines about Santa) designed to make us yearn for everything the Scoobs have lost. But mostly the episode is sad.

WHAT ISN’T TV GUIDE TELLING US?

“The Body” is a DIFFERENT kind of “Buffy.” It’s REALLY different. Even more different than recent Whedon-directed episodes like “Hush” and “Restless.”

WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING “DIFFERENT?”

Most “Buffy” episodes are fast-paced, utilitarian and very much a product of their medium, every moment crammed with plot, suspense, pathos, or comedy. “The Body” feels at times like something Jim Jarmusch or David Lynch might make. It’s dream-like, comprised of indelible moments: Buffy adjusting her mother’s skirt, Dawn’s friend flashing a message, Anya’s lost look as she stares out a passenger window.

WHAT’S OUR FIRST CLUE THAT THIS ONE IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT?

No clip package. The episode begins by reprising the final shots of the prior episode.

HOW ELSE DOES IT DIFFER?

Aside from Nerf Herder’s title theme, there’s no music. (I think; it’s hard to concentrate when sobbing consumes you.) And though it’s certainly among the most cinematic episodes of “Buffy” ever made, “The Body” also feels like a stageplay at times. The episode is comprised of only four scenes, one for each act.

WHERE DO THESE FOUR SCENES TAKE PLACE?

a) Buffy’s house,

b) Dawn’s school,

c) Willow’s dorm, and

d) Sunnydale Memorial Hospital.

HOW DID JOYCE DIE?

“Looks like an aneurism,” says the doctor in the final act. “Sudden hemmoraging from a ruptured arterial vessel near where the tumor was removed.”

DO WE MEET THE GUY WHO SENT JOYCE THE FLOWERS?

No.

ANY SIGN OF ANGEL?

No.

ANY SIGN OF RILEY?

No.

ANY SIGN OF BEN/GLORY, DRU, HARMONY, DREG, JINX, THE KNIGHTS, WARREN OR SPIKE’S FEMBOT?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no and no. Even Spike sits this one out.

COME ON, HERC, GIVE US ONE BIG JUICY SPOILER!

Okay, but this one’s so big and cool, I’m going to say it backwards, like Zantanna!

!ssik neercsno tsrif rieht erahs wolliW dna araT

HERC’S RATING FOR “BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER” 5.16? ****

The Hercules T. Strong Rating System:

**** better than most motion pictures

*** actually worth your valuable time

** as horrible as most stuff on TV

* makes you quietly pray for bulletins

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

Catwoman posted 02-26-2001 20:05 EST (US)
Okay so theres going to be a kiss and an "i love you"!!! Could this episode *get* any better!
Warduke posted 02-26-2001 20:06 EST (US)
wiccie, it's one kiss on the forehead and three on the lips
Rane posted 02-26-2001 20:11 EST (US)
four kisses *and* an 'i love you'? you wont be hearing anymore crying from this lil kitten about the lack of W/T onscreen love. no siree, joss. you've outdone yourself. again...

Oh, for it to be 8pm tuesday night...

edited to switch the number of kisses...

[This message has been edited by Rane (edited February 26, 2001).]

wiccie posted 02-26-2001 20:14 EST (US)
OMJOMJOMJ - thanks Warduke! Joss Bless Canada and wildfeeds!

I have to go faint now....Blood rushing out of brain for other places...Buh bye.

*ker-thunk!*

april posted 02-26-2001 20:31 EST (US)
oh my dear lord. oh....wow. we get all this...*plus* willow mouthing "i love you?" i swear, joss must lurk on this board. joss *has* to lurk on this board. aren't these like, *all* the things we ever said we wished we could see (minus the naughty ones that just won't happen on screen), all packed into one ep?

i can't deal. i just can't. tomorrow can NOT come fast enough. i will treasure this ep forever...

Catwoman posted 02-26-2001 20:38 EST (US)
Okay, i admit it, I'm Joss!!! hehe i wish, guy's a genius.

The thing i was wondering was that now that we've got the W/T kiss, will the 'kitten, the witches and the bad wardrobe' sign at the top of the page be changed to show the pic of W/T kissage? That'd be cool, not that i don't love the pics that are there already

tvsurfer posted 02-26-2001 20:42 EST (US)

Thanks Warduke!!!!!!

I can go to bed happy now!!!1

4 kisses, an I love you and a scene that solidifies there relationship as a couple "we will do this together" and they leave hand in hand 'together' WOW !!!

I'll have to tape this eppie on both VCR's so if I wear out one tape I'll have another copy

Dr.G posted 02-26-2001 20:45 EST (US)
LOL Wiccie, heh heh. I know how you feel.
Warduke man, you have made me very, very happy.
I did not think it was possible, but you've made me even happier than I have been since yesterday!

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Garfield, who wants to be an Amazon too now...

Dave V posted 02-26-2001 21:15 EST (US)
Warduke, thanks. I just got off work (11:00 p.m. CST) and surfed immediately to this page. You've made the trip home both a little easier (ahh, romance!) and harder (will tomorrow never come?).

Zahir, thanks for the post. It's great to see the people at Ain't it Cool News being so very supportive of BtVS in general, and Willow/Tara in particular. No one can cause tears like Ms. Hannigan.

xita posted 02-26-2001 21:35 EST (US)
Ok, I play with images, but I am really no good. I will take submtions for banners. The kiss must be included as well as the name. Of course try to sneak MKF in there as well. I will change the picture at the bottom to reflect the kiss tomorrow night. xita@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by xita (edited February 26, 2001).]

hypergirl posted 02-27-2001 04:15 EST (US)
8 hours an 47 minutes.....how will I ever deal? LoL And oh geezness....I must go to school in about 12 minues ....must....make it ....through ....day...
Ange posted 02-27-2001 12:36 EST (US)
Very good. I think that Joss gives us all that we wanted the kiss and the i love you. The i love you was very sweet. You saw it. I have only one thing to say.

THANK YOU MR WHEDON!!!!!!

------------------

Sorry for my faults. I'm French.

-------------------------

Willow: "Hello, gay now!"

april posted 02-27-2001 12:40 EST (US)
ange:

who on buffy unlimited has the new ep already? you can email me the info at cyber_apple@hotmail.com if you don't want to post it.

Isolde posted 02-27-2001 18:14 EST (US)
Wow.

Wow.

This is one of the best Buffy eps I've ever seen. Maybe the best. No music, and a lot more focus on the acting of the individuals. I've never lost anyone close to me, but SMG's reaction was very believable. Really liked the camera angles, etc, because it really made her utter loss and confusion more understandable.

Okay, let's not forget the obvious - THEY KISSED!!!!! And it was good - pretty much everything it could and should have been. And I fell in love with Tara all over again when she said "We can get through this." ... great line delivery! Woohoo! I am so happy right now!

The lack of music really made the episode work, again. Plus, there were a lot of subtleties going on between the characters, just little moments that Joss put a lot of attention into (Willow and Xander in the dorm room, for one). Plus, Anya wanting so much to understand, and her frustration about having no idea how to react. And personally, a vampire waking up in the middle of the morgue, in dead silence, right behind Dawn was eerier than all of the buildup music they have used before.

Sigh. Way to finish up the sweeps. Hope the fanfic can keep me going until the new eps!

hypergirl posted 02-27-2001 18:16 EST (US)
After we had our little kissing scene...right before it cuts to Anya and Xander discussing what they should do.....Tara is going towards Willow.....looks like she's about to kiss her again...eh just a random thought.....and whoever said it was really odd without the music was surely right....it was most def irky ...my room was all quiet and my cat was flexing her claws on my bed to where I could here it so it got really annoying LoL Anywayz ....be strong like an amazon -


Ciao -
ºAshleyº

tvsurfer posted 02-27-2001 18:21 EST (US)

WOW!!!!!!!

amazingly well done !!!!!!

David B of the NY Post was right
this deserves the EMMY

and the women, all the women in this ep, were just amazing!!!!!

AH just nailed this, and AB was fantastic
you could feel tara's empathy as she hurt for for her lover and friends as they struggled with the loss, just as you could read the pain of her reliving her own moms death in her eyes, very well done

JW is a very luck man to have so much talent to work with and bring his stories to life.

This eppie and these performances deserve the EMMY. nothing else on the small screen compares.

hypergirl posted 02-27-2001 18:27 EST (US)
Oh yay for me ....I'm now a floating rose...LoL yea ...I'm hushing now
TashaR posted 02-27-2001 19:09 EST (US)
*cheers for Aly and Amber*

That was so sweet, I was all teary. Poor Tara...Poor Willow.."Am I a grown up?" I loved how they did this...the whole episode was wonderful.

I so need to change my sig. "Aww, Baby, do you want me to rub your tummy? She likes it when I..."

Anyalvr posted 02-27-2001 19:26 EST (US)
OMG.

Everyone was so, so excellent tonight.

Willow's almost complete breakdown was so heartwrenching. And Tara, as the emotional
center, the "strong one", did so well tonight I love Tara. Amber did so beautifully

Nicholas, Emma, Anthony, Sarah, Michelle . .
all A-rate performances. But Emma and Alyson were the ones that really got me.

I have to say that this episode was masterfully executed. When my sister died suddenly a year and a half ago, I went through so many of the same reactions - it was eerie how much Buffy recreated the reality of my own life.


------------------
"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
-(drusilla, angel)

eekiboo posted 02-27-2001 20:05 EST (US)
i saw the "i love you" that Willow whispered to Tara. thank you Warduke for posting that! the first time i re-watched it, i didn't see it but then i rewinded and played again... yes! there it was! after Willow said: "I want to be there for Buffy..." Xander says something, then Willow says I LOVE YOU to Tara and then they hold hands! what a magical moment!

and talk abt PYSCHIC dreaming... i posted on this thread http://novogate.efront.com/nocgi/Forum74/HTML/001394-2.html
re: my dream abt Willow and Tara kissing. i didn't know abt their kissing since i hate spoilers! i was a spoiler virgin until i saw a pic of their kiss last nite. it was *definitely* a dream come true, literally!

that was the most natural kiss i have ever seen between two people in love. it was a comfort kiss... Tara goes over to a grieving Willow to support her and comforts her, as if to say: i'm here, you're not alone.. and thus she said "we'll get through this..." i still can't believe it...

this episode definitely dealt with a lot of emotions: grief, sadness, denial, disbelief, confusion, etc. when you say "The Body," it means there is nothing in it anymore. it's empty. the soul has left. when Buffy said "she's gone" at the end of the ep, she's right. she's saying their mother's life has reached its end. notice in the beginning, when she told Giles: "they said we mustn't move 'the body'..." after that, she paused. that was her realization that her mother was truly dead and thus the outbreak.

Tara's mother died when she was 17. thank you Oh Joss for revealing more truths abt Tara's life. i always thought she was still living. i *definitely* loved it when she called Willow "darling" and "baby." and that cute little hand holding during the Christmas dinner. my heart just melted... OMG... and then the KISS happened... my heart is still beating with that image in my mind!

i've also noticed there wasn't any music in the whole ep. everybody's speechless. indeed, silence speaks a thousand words. it's just fantastic! the interplay between Buffy's flashbacks to the Christmas dinner, then her fantasy of her mom surviving the ordeal, even her thinking that the doctor is lying just to make her feel better, her telling Dawn abt their mother's demise, etc. were simply done magnificently.

i am in awe. pax.

------------------
Willow to Buffy: "we have to face it, you can't handle Tara being my girlfriend..." The Yoko Factor

eekiboo posted 02-27-2001 20:31 EST (US)
Willow: (Willow is crying while deciding what to wear.) Why can't I just dress like a grown-up? Can't I be a grown-up? I...
Tara: Shhhh...
Willow: Tara...
Tara: Shhh.. darling...
Willow: I can't do this. (Tara kisses Willow on forehead, then triple kiss on lips.)
Tara: We can do this.
Willow: Ok. We can be there for Buffy. And Dawn. Little Dawn.
Tara: We can be strong.
Willow: Strong like an amazon?
Tara: Strong like an amazon, right.
Willow: Ok. I wish I had the blue. (referring to the blue blouse that Joyce mentioned she liked on Willow.)

april posted 02-27-2001 20:57 EST (US)
my god. this was such a powerful ep. shooting it without a musical soundtrack was a stroke of genius...everything hit home so much harder.

buffy's and dawn's initial reactions were very painful to watch, but actually, two other scenes got me even more than that: first, when willow says "little dawn" and almost bursts into tears again. my god. and then when tara quietly tells buffy about losing her own mother. the way she delivered the lines, and the way they were written...i totally identified with that. it's like, someone really close to you dies, and you feel guilty about all the weird reactions you're having. and the way buffy suddenly looked at tara, like "yes, my god, you actually understand me!" just incredible.

and the scene with the scoobies...willow and tara tear me to pieces. they were just superb. aly was INCREDIBLE portraying willow's freak-out, and they had SO much empathy between them for the kiss...you could just feel the love pouring off of tara. now that i've seen it, i can't think of a better way they could have shown a kiss. you can tell unquestionably how much they love each other. and then when willow mouths "i love you" at the end...it seals the scene perfectly. and you know, even in crisis, that these two are so in love... just amazing.

this was one of the best buffy eps i've ever seen. michelle trachtenberg was incredible as always. even anya, during her breakdown scene, really moved me. (i love anya, but she's not usually the deep emotional type.) wow. wow. wow. and again, wow.

i can think no more right now. i'll say more later...

Roxton posted 02-27-2001 21:00 EST (US)
I just finished watching The Body and I'm emotionally drained. It truly was a very powerful episode.

Watching the show I couldn't help but feel what the characters were going through. Buffy's trauma at finding her mother, the sadness and heartbreak of telling Dawn and then her reaction, Willow's and Xander's loss of a friend, Tara's feeling of Willow's pain and Anya's frustration at trying to understand what had happened.

There were some exceptional performances to-night. Alyson was extremely moving in her reaction to Joyce's death as was Michelle when Buffy broke the news to her. Amber was able to convey so much with just a few looks and Emma brought a human quality to Anya that we have not seen before. Yet to me the most poignant moment of the evening was the look on Michelle's face when Dawn looked up in the morgue and saw her mother's body. It was truly heart wrenching.

Finally I have to say that the kiss was more than just a kiss. It was done in such a sensitive and caring context that it became a symbol of the love that Willow and Tara share and their committment to be there for each other through whatever trials and tribulations may lay ahead.

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited February 27, 2001).]

i_heart_amber posted 02-27-2001 21:01 EST (US)
Hey everyone!! This episode was my favorite right after 'the family' tara and willow's kiss was soooo beautiful!!! I almost cried..hehe
Anyway, I'm so happy, I've waited for them to kiss for so long. They make the best couple. I'm going to meet Amber this saturday at a convention! I can't wait!
I notice the 'i love you' thing the first time I saw the episode, I read willow's lips and thought it was sooo cute. I really liked the whole tummy rubbing stuff.
EvilAnya posted 02-27-2001 21:08 EST (US)
:till crying:: what an amazing episode, the kiss, magnificent, that goes without saying, it didn't stick out in the episode like a sore thumb, no one is going to say "oh yeah, that's the LESBIAN KISS" episode. It was so beautiful and natural...i loved how Willow had cried all her makeup off, that made me really love the scene, because it's almost as if this scene wasn't for anyone but Willow and Tara, these two fictional characters, it's like we glimpsed a scene from real life, if it had played for ratings(Joss has way more integrity than to pull that load of bull poopies, bless the man) they would have had Willow and Tara all done up, muted lighting, but it's like Joss took a little slice out of this world he's created and showed it to us, he made it real for us, and it was beautiful.


SMG nailed it perfectly, the stunned disbelief, the numbness. My best friend lost her father really unexpectectly, just one day he had complications with his liver, and he was gone, she called me up after this ep and was like "What's the name of the guy who does this show?" and i said "Joss Whedon" and she says "That man knows his sh*t"


I loved Anya in this episode, there was HUGE character progression for her in this ep. This is the first time we've seen her really show concern for someone other than herself and Xander, the fruit punch part, even my boyfriend had tears in his eyes. And the way she reached out to Buffy...sob sob sob. She reminded me of the id...it was kind of like Anya was the id, Willow was the ego(not ego as in egotistical, in the psychoanalytical way) and Xander was the Sub-ego(is it sub ego? i always forget) anyway, genius. I will watch this ep again tonight and see what else i pic up, there was so much symbolism, but not in your face, delicate symbolism that just occurs in nature because we live on this strange cosmic planet and there are these symbols all around and Joss just made them shine slightly as a backdrop to this beautiful episode.
Ressick posted 02-27-2001 21:11 EST (US)
I remained spoiler free for this episode... minus the obvious of Joyce dying... but that was me figuring it out and seeing the trailer. So, seeing everything, I had NO CLUE. And that made it so powerful.

As for The Kiss... I was on the phone with a friend the entire episode... and she coulda heard a pin drop in my room as they kissed... I didn't belive it was happening... I thought it was my overactive imagination. And then came the screaming. And the absolute freaking out, and the lying on my back yelling with my legs kicking in the air. My apologies to her for being slightly deafened this evening.

It was the sweetest episode... I've restrained myself, I waited three hours after finishing seeing it to post, and I've only rewatched it once in that time. *grin* I think it was masterful. The lack of soundtrack made you concentrate on the actors completely. Emotion was exquisitely communicated, and I think the use of the various Scoobies in this ep was fantastic. Tara as the one leading everyone thru the chaos, was perfect. Giles as the ultamite father figure for them all, even Anya (I smiled so much when she went up and hugged him in the morgue). Anya as the one asking the questions we never ask while things are happening - WHY? Xander as the older brother, but who still feels as bad as the others. Willow as the best friend, torn between her own grief and her need to support Buffy. Dawn as the disbelief we all feel when someone we love dies. And Buffy as the everyperson, hurting beyond words.

I liked how important every single Scooby was to this episode. This is the exact opposite of last season, when everyone was off on their own. This is the episode that should have been called "Family" because the family of the Scooby gang has finally solidified.

But I shall miss Joyce. And the Joyce/Giles shipper in me is so sad for Giles as well...

Res

P.S. HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO CONCENTRATE ON MY HOMEWORK AFTER THIS???? *sigh* I don't think my profs will accept the "Joss Whedon ate my homework" excuse tomorrow... so I'm off to translate Latin and read the first two acts of "Pygmalian"...

[This message has been edited by Ressick (edited February 27, 2001).]

geekgod posted 02-27-2001 21:14 EST (US)
this episode was really good.

first of all it had willow and tara kiss. it was so out of the blue that it was shocking. not in the bad way of course. in the cute way. they pulled it off very nicely, not making a big deal about it. making seem like a natural event in their lives. it was beautiful.

then when they were in the room with xander and anya and willow silently told tara that she loved her. that was also very cute.

they episode as a whole was great. it was very emotionally charged and the actors all did such a wondeful job.

is next week a rerun? because they didnt show previews.

Utena posted 02-27-2001 21:21 EST (US)
Its now eleven minutes after The Body has aired and I'm going to try and write my first thoughts and impressions. Here goes...

I have *never* cried over a television show, movies yes, television no. It wasnt until tonight that I fully realized exactly how much I am attached to these characters that make up Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I shed tears for Joyce, for Willow, for Buffy, for Tara, for Dawn.
This episode was truly amazing. To me it was the most moving, most emotionally draining hour of art that I have ever seen. The addition of having no soundtrack really made the emotions just pour of out me. For once I had no theme music, no guiding melody to try and show me how I should be feeling. It was all so natural. I was allowed to be angry, happy, pitying, sad, and bitter whenever I felt it was appropriate. l
SMG was amazing. Last week when we saw the "...Mom..mom...mommy?" I thought to myself that if this was just a sampling of the sort of performace she'd give next week, and it was consistant with those few seconds, the episode would truly be one of the most momentous hours in Buffy, ever. At least in Buffy. The very least.

The scene where Buffy told Dawn. How she was crying over the bitch's treatment of her and the kindness she found in that fellow only to be yanked from her world once again by painful truth. Dawn. Oh my Dawnie...

I'm still in shock I think. Tne ep is just a flurry of images and emotions swirling in my head...I'll need a few more hours until I'm able to sort it all out and make some coherent sense of it all. The doctor;s lips mismatching his words. Dawn being the Key. The first slayer. Tara's seemings idiotic statement of "It hurts..."

The image that will haunt me for a very long, long time...when Buffy opened the door only to face the sounds of merriment coming from the world around here. Her face. That face of death. You could see her disbelief and loss in her countenance. An amazing job in makeup.

Amazing job all around. The dialogue really communicated what the Scoobs were feeling and thinking, and in some scenes, the lack of dialogue. I'm just in awe of this ensemble and the execution of this episode.

I'm not sure I'll be able to watch it for a couple of days. I need to recover. Yes, not even watch it for the kiss...the kiss...the kiss was so bittersweet. I'm glad I've had the past few days to enjoy the kiss. Seeing it was almost anticlimactic. Blasphemous I know...

All I can plead is emotional overload!

Zelda posted 02-27-2001 21:23 EST (US)
That was an amazing episode. This is the first time that I have seen a same sex kiss woven so organically into a plot. There was no build up of, oh, wait, big taboo kiss coming, and no immediate cut away. The mouthed I love you later in the scene just sealed the deal.

Overall, this episode was incredible. The sound design was critical given the lack of music. Joss played with sound in several places, the way your ears play tricks on you during moments of crisis. The scene in Willow's dorm played more like a staged play than a television show and I could not believe the performance Joss got out of Emma Caulfield. She has been so badly used for the most part and Joss made up for two years of mediocre storylines for her in a couple of seconds. And bless her heart, she also delivered. Wow.

The Buffy/Tara bonding scene was also incredible. So much tension, no melting into a relationship that had not been adequately developed. There was compassion and understanding but the integrity of the characters and their relationship was kept intact.

Joss deserves another emmy nomination for writing for this episode but even more than that -- he deserves one for directing. This is such a layered piece with exceptional performances. He deserves all the praise that people are going to shower upon him. Wow.

[This message has been edited by Zelda (edited February 27, 2001).]

eekiboo posted 02-27-2001 21:37 EST (US)
i just noticed... Willow was looking for her blue sweater (not a blouse) which made Tara go the laundry room to look for it... it was right under their noses. when Anya sat on the chair, she tugs at something where she sat... a stuffed toy and then Willow's blue sweater which she conveniently tucks away in Willow's drawer. pax
Faith_Yashuu posted 02-27-2001 21:39 EST (US)
Wah...wow...um...I stayed away from spoilers of any kind for this one...and I was watching Triangle right before this aired and was getting bitter because they didn't show any couple-ness. I know there was couple-ness in the script, but why'd the cut it out. NEwayz I was in a bad mood...I knew this was obviously a depressing ep, so I sat down to watch it. And I was so right. I taped it, but missed the X-mas part because I got up to do go do something else. I came back, and when the Dawn/Buffy quarter ended, I got up and went to the kitchen. I figured Tara wouldn't be in this episode, I mean, this was a scooby thing right? I figured her and Anya would not show up (cuz I didn't think Anya knew Joyce and she'd do what she actually did on the show) uh...anyway, so I'm in the kitchen, getting a glass of water, and I notice Willow scrambling around in her bra...so I go back and watch a little bit. The more broken down she got, the more I really didn't want to watch this ep. And then Tara comforted her and kissed her on the forhead, I was like "aww, the kittens are gonna be talking about this all toni---WAIT, WHAT THE HELL?"AND SHE KISSED HER THREE TIMES ON THE LIPS. LOUDLY. UNINTERUPTED. Waoh. And then there was the sound of my glass breaking all over my bare feet. What can I say, I'm an idiot =) So, needless to say I didn't watch the rest yet, cuz I went to the clinic to get the glass removed. But if my mom asks it was the dog! But it's all good cuz now I get to miss school tomarrow. Um..what else? oh yeah, when you see Willow going through her clothes u see a powerpuff girls shirt, and a little farther from it, u see a black t-shirt with a barely visable pink sitting cat on it. I own that shirt, it says "Miss Kitty's Kittycat Lounge" um...okie I'm done. ^_^

------------------
"Here we are now going to the south side
I pick up my friends and we hope we won't die
Ride at night, ride through heaven and hell
Come back and feel so well."
~Moby

Faith_Yashuu posted 02-27-2001 22:00 EST (US)
um...one last thing...the plush Anya picked up on the bean bag chair is called Kogepan, and it's a piece of burnt bread...the same ppl who make that, Sanrio, also make Tare-Panda, which is the most popular cartoon character in Japan right now. I want one =( um...that's all...and pain killers ROCK!!
rocketdyke posted 02-27-2001 22:17 EST (US)
*sigh*

im so glad i was unspoiled for that episode.

i was on the verge of tears from the beginning, watching buffy shut down... and the scene between tara and willow was... beautiful. god. but it was when anya just wanted so simply, so earnestly, for someone to explain to her how one is supposed to get through these things... thats when i lost it.

i think it was so important that joyce died from something natural... such a profound way to show this loss... that even though buffy has these superpowers and skills, there are some things that no one can possibly control, or protect one's loved ones from... and that realization makes one understand, not mortality, necessarily, but that despite our mortality, we each have to go on, to live through these things, despite our fear or confusion... knowing that we often are clumsy with these precious lives that we are given... knowing, as willow says, that we dont know how it works. and yet...

it reminds me of this poem, by a 14 century sufi master, named hafiz. he says

out
of a great need
we are all holding hands
and climbing.
not loving is a letting go.
listen.
the terrain around here
is
far too
dangerous
for
that.

im grateful, to know that i have a family and friends to hold on to, to hold on to me... and encouraged by so many of the (often silly) things that i see people say around here... knowing there are so many people out there in the world... not letting each other fall. where-ever it is we're going, its nice to have good company for the journey.

; )
rocketdyke

ps faith_yashuu... ouch! hope youre ok! did you have to get stitches? see our devotion?! we *BLEED* for this show...

BBOvenGuy posted 02-27-2001 22:33 EST (US)
Wow, wow, double and triple wow...

Some random thoughts, because it's going to be a while before I have coherent ones.

Zelda's right, the scene in Willow's room played exactly like a stage production. These are four very gifted professionals who know their craft amazingly well, being directed by someone who knows exactly how to bring the best out of them. Those nights at the Whedon house reading Shakespeare together are worth their weight in gold, and if I'm ever a famous TV personality I'm having my cast do exactly the same thing. (No, wait, maybe I'll have them sing madrigals instead, 'cause that's what I do... but I digress...)

I have to go back to take in the "I love you" in all its glory, because it just kinda slips in there while the attention is focused on Xander. In fact, I'm not sure I would have caught it if I hadn't been spoiled and was looking for it. I have a theory as to why Willow says it, though - for the past several moments she's been watching Xander and Anya both disintegrate and neither one of them has been able to help the other, yet Willow has had Tara there keeping her together. That's my take.

And Tara... wow again. Tara was not the Rock of Gibralter - she even started stuttering again - but I think that makes her strength even more remarkable. She was as much on the verge of collapse as anyone, but she kept herself together because the gang needed an anchor. My guess is, though, that once it's safe for her to feel the pain there will be much weeping and being cradled in Willow's arms. (Are you paying attention, fic-writers?)

Ummm... that's it for now. I'm sure there will be more later. Must decide between the need for sleep, the need to chat and the need to see the episode again. Which will win out???

april posted 02-27-2001 22:52 EST (US)
okay, unspoiled people, i must know!!!!

did you just DIE when you first saw the kiss???

we've already had one kiss-related injury tonight...any more stories?

tvsurfer posted 02-27-2001 23:13 EST (US)
tara obviously went through some major trauma when her mom died. did you notice the way the camera panned in on tara as xander made his speil about doctors. You just know that tara must have had to deal with doctors and an illness with her mom from the way the camera focused on her there. and her comment to xander once he got his hand out of the wall 'it hurts', it helped him/he found peace once he knew she could feel his pain

her chat with buffy was perfect

all these women were just amazing tonight

willow responded to anya's breakdown, it helped her put things in perspective and her blue top didn't matter any more, getting there to help buffy did

the look willow and tara share before they leave the dorm room, the we're doing this together look was wonderful to see

amazing eppie, just amazing

rocketdyke posted 02-27-2001 23:18 EST (US)
i'll tell you april, that i *TOTALLY* did not know about the kiss at all, and when it happened, i was holding the tv remote in my hand, and i slowly sat up to the edge of the couch, and the remote slipped out of my hand, and landed on my cat's head, who was licking his paws at my feet, oblivious to the unfolding drama. poor jack. he's ok though.

i didnt die though. but i think i watched that whole dorm room scene about 15 times at least over the next two hours... so sweet. the i love you at the end...

rocketdyke

wiccie posted 02-27-2001 23:58 EST (US)
I was in a script-writing class from 7-10pm, and watched the whole ep when I got home, BUT I managed to convince the teacher (the class is at her house) to tune into the first act of "The Body".

Since she had been talking about "show don't tell" and "less is more", I had to raise my hand and say "Y'know, a perfect example of that will come on the air in 8 minutes."

Even the people who didn't watch BTVS at all normally were in tears from Act I alone.

We spent about a half-hour discussing the 10 minutes of BTVS we watched, then got back to our regular assignments.

I'm still too full of emotions to form complete thoughts...But I'll try a few.

I'm glad I could watch the kisses and "I love you" at home - in class would have been too weird.

Anya was like the little kid - the emotional 5-year-old who can't comprehend death.

I guess I can't say anything else that hasn't been better articulated by others...Amazing.

Emmy! Emmy! Emmy!

wolliw posted 02-28-2001 04:09 EST (US)
Hey april,
I've stayed away from this board for a couple of weeks now to avoid spoilers, and I had no idea about the kiss. When I saw the forehead kiss, I thought, "Nice that they could get that in." When it continued onto lips locking, I was stunned. Then very happy for it, and praising Joss in my heart over and over again for whatever he had to do to get in on air. A beautiful scene between W and T in a beautiful and amazing episode.
Thespia posted 02-28-2001 04:50 EST (US)
I'm wondering if during this season Buffy was able to solve the rough spots in her relationship with Joyce. Having watched "Restless", it became pretty clear to me that Buffy felt guilty for neglecting Joyce because of her slayer activities. Now that Joyce is dead, I hope she won't feel any guilt along with all the sadness.
Banshee posted 02-28-2001 05:46 EST (US)
Completely on a personal level-my mother had an aneurysm 5 years ago, though she survived with no evidence aside from a scar. My bestfriends mother died of one and the shock, the utter shock of seeing the person fine and dandy one second and coming back five minutes later to have them on the floor is inexplicable.
I remember the emotions that I went through(but, it was the NOT knowing if she was going to make it rather than the KNOWING that she didn't that I experienced) and SMG/MT could not have potrayed them better. The part that I think killed me the most was when Buffy yelled at Giles to not move the body and then realized that she had already depersonalized the situation--made her mother an object rather than a person.
And Dawns want--or rather, NEED--to see the body to make it real, to touch her one last time. I've been there too. When my stepfather passed away in October, it wasn't real. Like, it looked like him, but I couldn't really believe it. And then, at the wake, I touched him and felt how cold he was and it gave me closure. Sometimes, being the humans that we are, can only believe those things that we can touch, taste, hear, see and feel. And I think Dawns need for that was an amazing human display.
Anyas role in last nights episode was definately that of a child. The having to explain how death works--making sure that it doesn't come across as too harsh but sort of getting the point across that the person isn't coming back. The realizing that little things you take for granted(yawning, drinking Fruit Punch) are gone when you are. I like how the woman who has been through plagues and war is learning mortality.
I would be Xander. I blame walls.
Willow/Tara, I won't even get into it. I think we all feel the same thing about the kiss, the support, the whispered admition of love.
As far as the Joyce dying/Restless connection. The only thing I can think of is when Joyce was stuck in the wall and Buffy doesn't "save" her from it. Could just be reading into things.

This gets my academy vote.

-S

geekgod posted 02-28-2001 05:46 EST (US)
let's see, any injuries during the kiss.....
well if you count my heart stopping, then yes. i mean i was on the phone with my girlfriends, like always. and we were talking about how realistic the scene was playing out, then they kissed. it went silent on the phone. then as soon as it was over we both started talking very incohorant gibberish. this made us both realize just how big of dorks we are. but what you goin' do.
xita posted 02-28-2001 07:27 EST (US)
Ok, I really had to collect myself to even comment on this. I was overwhelmed. I am not one to usually cry. But I was stunned by the brilliant writing. The show felt at times like a Bergman film at others like a Play. And I know some people (David Hines) might want to say Joss did it for attention. Well, I would go along with that and call it a gimmick, if these things weren't essential to the theme of the show. All the different techniques Joss tried were experiments on how to convey the loss the scoobies felt. In that way, I support anything Joss wants to do.

I was stunned by so many little things, Buffy opening the door, listening to life go on. Other people's joy suddenly becoming and insult to her pain.

Dawn's breakdown happening away from us... through glass. Any closer and sound turned up and that scene might have been too melodramatic.
more thoughts later.

Finally, the kiss. The kiss was perfect. I could have never expected a kiss that so perfectly conveyed the miraculous love Willow and Tara share.

And Bob yes, I think that was the point of the I love you there. Inspite of what we have been told, X/A were not supportive of each other in these hard times. In fact they didn't seem to know each other at all. We have been shown in Family and now in this episode that Willow and Tara know exactly what the other needs. SO MUCH SO that they put their own needs seconds. In Family Willow could have felt upset at the lie, instead she understood the fear and pain Tara felt. She supported her completely. Here in The Body, Willow was so devastated that Tara put aside her own grief in order to help sooth Willow's more immediate pain. I LOVE THEM!

Edited to add, Anya. Man, I don't think I ever got this character before. I was always mildly annoyed by her ignorance of human life. It was just to "Data" like for me. However, in this context, I finally understood what life here must be like for her.

Ok, edited again to add the vampire scene at the end was perfect. Inspite of everything Buffy is still the slayer. Death is still all around her. However, she can protect Dawn from a vampire, but she couldn't do anything for her mom. Irony is kind of ironic that way.

------------------
Tara: Shh.
Willow: Tara...
Tara: Shh. Darling...

[This message has been edited by xita (edited February 28, 2001).]

christa monsta posted 02-28-2001 07:34 EST (US)
can't really add to what others have said. i, too, didn't catch the "i love you" until my second viewing, when i immediately started screaming into a pillow.

little things i liked:
- dawn's saying "she's a primo BEE-OTCH". holy cow, that was funny.
- blackened pie - cajun pie. hee hee
- the santa disemboweling children story - well, not that i like children being disemboweled...
- the "he wants you" sign that dawn's friend holds up.
- performances by all the women were great. everyone made me misty, but anya's talk about the fruit punch, yawn, brush her hair was heartbreaking.
- kudos to kristine for her performance, even if it was as a dead body. holding her eyes open the whole episode...i felt for her - she did a great job, albeit pretty morbid and sad.

kiss kiss kiss. great great great. natural. perfect.

i love joss.

------------------
W: "I am a whiz!"
T: "She is a whiz!"
W: "If ever a whiz there was..."

[This message has been edited by christa monsta (edited February 28, 2001).]

xita posted 02-28-2001 07:43 EST (US)
Nick has screen caps now check it out
Warduke posted 02-28-2001 07:49 EST (US)
To the kittens that were in chat Monday night, so last night you heard what I was saying, about when Tara goes to comfort Willow, the way Willow says "Tara" and "little Dawn", didn’t that just break you heart…Aly killed me with that scene
BBOvenGuy posted 02-28-2001 07:59 EST (US)
Willow's part was yet another example of how people who say "Willow is dead" either aren't paying attention or can't get past the lesbian-thing. Willow's freak-out, obsessing over how she looks and what message she sends and whether or not she can be a "proper" grown-up are exactly the sorts of things I would expect her to do. Once again, she's the same Willow she has always been - older now, obsessing about more adult things, but still the same.

I'm also glad to know I'm not the only person capable of standing there in total brain-locked confusion wondering what message my choice of shirts will send and thinking "Why do they all have stupid things on them?"

------------------
Come visit Now Leaving Sunnydale - A Showcase for Buffy Fans and their Non-Buffy creations

november posted 02-28-2001 08:15 EST (US)
Hi, guys . . . I've had bad connectivity problems for some reason and haven't been on the board for a couple of weeks or longer, so I was completely, utterly blindsided by The Kiss(es). I was desperately trying to log on last night between commercials because I could barely contain myself. Now that I'm finally on, I just have to rant for a while . . . forgive me if I repeat too many of the thoughts above on this thread, which I've barely had time to skim . . .

OK, first: If anybody doubts Joss's abilities as a producer/director/whatever, let her watch last night's ep. That was very nearly the most shattering TV I've ever seen in my life. Scarier than all of the monsters, demons, vamps, etc. in all of the other eps combined. By 45 minutes in I was begging for the show to end because it was so intense and devastating. It says something that Angel, with _its_ exceptionally powerful storyline these last few eps, utterly paled in comparison . . . in fact, it was a downright relief after watching BTVS. I can't even begin to do a detailed criticism of the BTVS ep and all of the devices Joss used so masterfully to achieve this effect . . . if I started to do so, I could keep writing for a week without running out of things to say.

OK, all that being said, I do have to voice a mild objection. It's just a mild one, and I don't know how many other people will agree or how many people I'm unconsciously echoing from above (I know, I know, I really should read before I write, but I'm just too pent-up), but I still have to voice it.

My sense is that Joss's idea was to hit the audience so hard with so many gut-wrenching things in this ep that any censor or homophobe who happened to be watching would find the kissing the least disturbing thing in the whole hour. Now at one level that was a stroke of absolute genius . . . when confronting the things that Buffy and everyone else (including Joyce herself, the traveller into the Undiscovered Country) faced last night--when confronting the ultimate issue of life, death, and the meaning of human existence--*everything* else pales in comparison. In retrospect, Joss could have done nothing more likely, and more precisely calculated, to get the kiss on screen than what he did last night.

My complaint--just a teeny one--is that given the circumstances of the ep, there was no way, no way at all, for that long-desired kiss could be romantic, which is how I think most of us here would have liked it to be. Not in *that* ep. (Of course, maybe Joss figured that, absent romance, the kiss would be even more palatable to those who might otherwise object.) Now don't get me wrong. It was an incredibly *loving* moment, perhaps even more than any mere *romantic* moment could be. It was the one moment of brightness in an hour of darkness and bleakness, the one anchor that we could hold on to as the world came apart--the one moment that suggeted that love can survive even death. My heart was going out to Willow during the whole scene, and I have never loved Tara more than when she comforted Willow the way she did. When she kissed her on the forehead I was simply melting . . . I have no words to describe my reaction to what followed. I know, I know, that I idealize Tara, but that's only because Joss does too. You'll have to look long and hard throughout the realm of prime-time, and particularly in the Buffyverse, to find anyone who's as fundamentally as warm, as caring, as nurturing, as *good*, as Tara is, and we just saw more evidence of that last night. I just do wish that the kiss didn't have to come at a time of such searing trauma for all of us--characters, actors, and viewers alike. On the bright side, now that we've had THE kiss, maybe we can now move on to more kisses in happier circumstances.

OK, I do have to mention the most standout moments of the ep.

Buffy giving Joyce mouth-to-mouth--another hint from Joss (especially to those who didn't know what was coming a few scenes later).

The whole Willow-Tara scene. All of it. Very powerful.

Anya's breakdown. The most terrifyingly powerful moment of the entire ep. I've never seen anything like it. I have no words to describe it. She should get an Emmy for that soliloquy, and so should the writers.

The vampire at the end. The only supernatural manifestation in the whole ep, and by the time we saw him, he came as a distraction, a nuisance . . no, an outrage. It's like Joss was putting across the message "We're involved in a cridsis of life and death here! How can you--how *dare* you--intrude with such ridiculous devices as vampires at a moment such as this?"

I'm numb. I'm utterly numb.

wiccie posted 02-28-2001 09:56 EST (US)
November, you made excellent points and if you accept it I offer you a cyber-hug (& to all the other grieving Kittens out there).

About having the kiss in this ep - I agree mostly, but I'll add a layer to your thought:

Yes, everything else emotionally overshadowed the kiss, but I see that as Joss saying "Look, WB, in the big picture of life two women in love and kissing is not a huge deal. It's a normal human emotion and process - lesbians or anyone shouldn't be left out."

Not sure if that makes sense - I'm still kinda overwhelmed myself - but the ep was so full of *real life* moments to not have W/T in the midst of such grief would be criminal.

Also, I agree with others how the W/T interactions demonstrated that while X/A may seem more sexual to the viewer, the grrrls have the much deeper emotional connection.

X/A really pulled away from each other in this time of grief - sad; very, very sad.

Sabrina Luv posted 02-28-2001 10:12 EST (US)
This episode was truly awesome beyond words. I sat there with 3 of my friends, 2 of whom don't normally watch the show and usually heckle through it (still have to love them). During the show, the room was complete silence. Me and my buffy loving friend had tears in our eyes the entire time, and the other 2 felt the pain as well. It was very hard not to break the mood by cheering for the kiss. I just went into a small little snoopy type dance.

I probably re watched the entire ep 3 times, but the one scene i watched more than any others was the dorm room scene. Of course the kiss was perfect. loved every moment of it. Aly's breakdown was a beautiful performance. and Amber just rocked in the support department. (side note: i loved her in those pants. DAMN!)

The character that got the most emotional respnose out of me was Anya (GO EMMA!) Everyone was just thinking that she was being her normal uncaring self, but you could see the confusion in her eyes. Her breakdown was executed wonderfully. i rewatched that quite a few times...

i have never willingly cried so much in my life. The Body is just one of the best things i have ever seen. It goes right up there with Hush and Family for me. Congrats to the cast.

JOSS IS GOD!!!

------------------
Sabrina Luv

Willow - It's been pointed out to me that that's, you
know, insane. Tara - I said "quirky".

Anyalvr posted 02-28-2001 10:28 EST (US)
This is a mean, anti-Riley post, so Riley fans, beware.

I hope when/if Riley hears about what happens
he feels really, really bad about how he acted in the aftermath of Joyce's illness and how upset he got at the fact that Buffy didn't react in the way that would make him feel special, that he was off getting sucked by vampires because he felt neglected by Buffy at the one time she would most need his patience and support. All the time he was griping about Buffy not focusing her attention on him and how she needed to act
in order to make him feel special in the wake of a loved one's illness, this was the only
time left Buffy would *ever* have with her mother. I hope it hits him hard that while he was complaining about Buffy focusing on her family instead of how it would make him feel,
this would be the only time she had left with
that family as it existed.

I'm sorry. I'm still really pissed about the way the Riley thing ended and I hope that if he finds out about this he will realize how
utterly wrong he was to complain about Buffy not treating him "right" when she had so few moments left with her mother.

That said, I think you can find a parallel here. Riley didn't fully support Buffy during her mother's illness because he was too focused on how Buffy's reactions made him feel to really focus on supporting Buffy
no matter how she reacted. I truly think Riley and Spike are soulmates in the selfish bastards sense because they although are both
obssessed with Buffy, when you get down to it, both are more focused on how her response to them makes THEM feel than what is truly best for Buffy.

Okay, taking that into perspective, Riley didn't/couldn't fully support Buffy, Xander and Anya can't support each other during this time - but Willow and Tara can and do. That makes their relationship all the more special

Sorry for the anti-Rileyness. I guess I'm not getting over it.

------------------
"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
-(drusilla, angel)

Corana posted 02-28-2001 10:58 EST (US)
Ok. I stayed completely spoiler free for this ep. My gf threatened me within an inch of my life, cuz I just can't help myself from telling her what I found out and then I end up spoiling her too.

Anyway, last night was the strangest hour of television I have ever watched. I actually looked forward to the commercials, so I could get a break. When Tara and Willow kissed, I couldn't even react. It was all so real and harsh and horribly horribly slow.

And then when Anya did her 'why' speech I lost it. I watched Willow cry, a W/T kiss, a hysterically crying Dawn, but what got to me was Anya asking 'why'? She didn't understand why, and the horrible truth is that none of us do. That scene absolutely destroyed me, and I'm still recovering.

The weird part is that I can't stop watching it. Last night when I was rewinding the episode for the third time, by GF grabbed the tape out of the VCR and said there was only so much she could take. But I still want to watch it again.

I'm in shock and that in itself surprises me. I am not a Joyce fan. I never thought she was a great mom, but I never wanted her to die. The way it hurt everyone was too much to bear.

Aside from Anya and the kiss, my favorite part of the episode was after Xander pulled his hand out of the wall and told everyone he was fine. Only Tara looked at Xander and said only 'It hurts.' She understood that his internal pain was out of control and he need to feel it externally as well.

It was amazing

Sean Gaffney posted 02-28-2001 11:05 EST (US)
quote:
Originally posted by wiccie:
Also, I agree with others how the W/T interactions demonstrated that while X/A may seem more sexual to the viewer, the grrrls have the much deeper emotional connection.

X/A really pulled away from each other in this time of grief - sad; very, very sad.


I hate to make my first post to this board a X/A post, but I've lurked for a while, and this did sort of make me raise an eyebrow, wondering why I disagreed so much.

I think it's a couple reasons. Xander and Anya, despite knowing and 'knowing' each other longer, have the newer relationship - until recently, the words love were never uttered. They're still feeling their way around. With Anya this is especially difficult, as each new feeling is strange.

Second, they aren't very physical in their love. I realize, on the face of it, that sounds really, REALLY dumb, but I don't mean sex. I mean the things we've seen Willow and Tara do all the time. Looks, touches, hugs, just being NEAR each other. Xander doesn't really work that way - despite his outgoing persona, he's not as demonstrative. This is perhaps why he felt the need to declare how much he loved Anya - he realized she probably didn't know that.

I don't think this means they love each other less. I think it means they're where Willow and Tara were a year ago - feeling each other out. With Joyce's death hitting them both hard, they react as any scared and confused person would - by coping privately.

That said, I do think this is undercut by Willow and Tara's wonderfully passionate and loving relationship, which is the exact opposite. :-D God, what a wonderful actress Amber is. I plan on killing the next person who says she's wooden - welcome to the wonders of underplaying, kiddos. ^_^

OK, back to lurking. ^^;;

--SG
--ObBuffy - if David Hines hates the show so
--much, why continue to irritate me with his
--reviews?

april posted 02-28-2001 11:20 EST (US)
november, i have to disagree with you about the kiss not being romantic.

often the greatest romance happens in the face of the greatest tragedy. think of the last scene of romeo and juliet, which many people contend is the greatest romance ever written. the fact that they died out of love for each other is horribly tragic, but also consumately romantic. and i see the kiss (and subsequent "i love you") between willow and tara in a very similar way.

willow is having a complete breakdown about joyce's death, she is utterly devastated, and the only place she can find comfort and solace is in the arms and lips of her lover. just as tara said to willow in family, when they're at their worst, when it's their darkest hour, they seek out each other and help each other find a way to make it better. the way that willow calms down when tara kisses her, the way she absorbs the unconditional love that tara offers her and finds in it a reservoir of strength to bring to buffy, that is amazingly, amazingly romantic. it's exactly the kind of thing that characterizes great romances. willow's "i love you" at the end of the scene is an expression of profound gratitude for tara's strength and love, for knowing that tara will always, always be there when she needs support. it's easy to be romantic when everything is going well; it's during the difficult times that relationships are tested, and in this scene more than any other so far, willow and tara demonstrated the depth of their feelings for each other and the strenth of their love.

in fact, i would say that this scene is one of the most romantic willow and tara have had so far. i can't think of a more powerful demonstration that what they have is true love.

[This message has been edited by april (edited February 28, 2001).]

tvsurfer posted 02-28-2001 11:55 EST (US)

quoted from a previous post
_____
"think Riley and Spike are soulmates in the selfish bastards sense because they although are both obssessed with Buffy, when you get down to it, both are more focused on how her response to them makes THEM feel than what is truly best for Buffy."
_____

I'd have to agree and their little bonding bit after riley faux staked spike pretty much confirms this.

But Xander's relationship to Anya is also couched in this framework. In his speech to her in the eppie where riley leaves, his declaration of love for her is based totally on how her response to him makes him feel, ie 'like a man'. Theirs is not a balanced relatinship. I think thats why we see such a contrast between X/A and W/T here. His relationship to Anya is physical, its about what she can do for him, there is no recipracal shown about what he does for her. Which is not totaly his fault since she is presented as a Data/7 of 9 type emotional blank slate/crippled character in many ways.
You can't expect a childlike mentality to love with adult depth

As for the timing of the kiss I think its consistent with willows past track record.
Willow and Oz were under end of the world stress in graduation day when Willow was losing it and Oz put the moves on her, consumating their relationship before their graduation battle with the mayor.
and here we are again dealing with a situation of great stress with willow losing it and her partner reacting by calming her with physical affection. Very consistent me thinks.

november posted 02-28-2001 12:10 EST (US)
Wow . . . so much to think about and comment on above.

Wiccie, thanks for the hug. You have an interesting perspective. I would add that people do weird things when something this horrible happens, so maybe that's why X/A pull away at that moment? Which brings me to . . .

Sean, welcome. I understand exactly what you mean. After what Xander came home and told Anya immediately after Riley flew away, you have to believe that they *do* love each other even though they're awkward about saying it.

Corana, I'll now pass along to you the hug that Wiccie offered me. I know, I *know*, just exactly what you're feeling, especially Anya's speech. I could not have put it better than the way you did. Just as you're recovering, I think that I'll be recovering from that speech for a long time. You guys will probably laugh at me, but that speech is almost on a par with "To be or not to be." It has an animal, anguished immediacy about it that a more contemplative setting could never capture. Whoever characterized Anya as the "id" hit it dead on.

And as for you, April, my favorite fellow month, all I can say is that after the scene you wrote a few weeks back on " I D-d-do," I will never argue with you about the essence of romance. Especially if you can cite to Romeo and Juliet as authority. Your description above of what is going on between W and T, both before and afer the kiss as well as during, nearly brought me to tears. I think the only point on which we differ is what I intended to convey with the word "romantic." In this case, I meant the word to connote what someone on this board called "hot slipperies" as opposed to "warm fuzzies." Now I haste to add that the things that usually melt me savor much more of warm fuzzy rather than hot slippery, though a judicious use of the latter can be most welcome. I guess that I meant to give "romantic" an erotic spin, and I can't see that the circumstances of this ep were conducive to erotic. At least Romeo and Juliet had a balcony scene, and so, too, have W and T had their balcony scene, but not last night. OTOH, I guess that it isn't a stretch at all to imagine W/T or X/A or any other normal couple making love that night as a way of pushing back the shadows. But my ideal time to make love would be in the *absence* of shadows, when all's right with the world, if you see my point, and last night was anything but that. And I will heartily agree that what we saw between W and T in that scene, and especially during the kiss, was a love and an emotional attraction that goes *far* beyond mere sex, and that, in itself, perhaps, can be seen as erotic (although I don't think that I could have seen it as such during the actual ep. Maybe during reruns?)

In sum, I want to be bad and take up a little extra bandwidth and reprint something I posted earlier today in another thread, because I want to make sure that all of y'all see it. (Please, moderators, don't hit me . . . I'm shaky enough today as it is, and I promise to be good in the future.) Here it is:

I'm just in awe of, and amazed by, all of you guys. You all come across as being so intelligent, so sensitive, so perceptive . . . You spot things on the show--details, and meanings, and metaphors--that I could never see in a hundred years, and yet when you mention of them I feel like a fool for not having seen them. You enrich my understanding of the show, and thus of life, profoundly. And above all, when something as incredibly beautiful as the kiss happens, to see your whole-hearted support of something that would turn off so many people out there, is tremendously supportive for me. It saddens me that there are people who would deny the basic goodness and incredible inner beauty of Tara and Willow, and the love that they have for each other; and it terrifies me that there are others who don't (or even worse, can't) perceive/recognize it as love. W/T are such beautiful people . . . this can't be wrong . . . and those who condemn them frighten me. Thanks to all of you for letting me know that, when I want to burst into tears at the beauty of it all, that there's nothing wrong with me for feeling that way.

[This message has been edited by november (edited February 28, 2001).]

BlackLab posted 02-28-2001 16:10 EST (US)
I was too spent last night to even go on the computer: I rewound and watched twice more before bed. And at work today I kept thinking about it: it outdid my expectations and made me glad I decided to forgo spoilers for a while.

Most of my reactions & favorite moments were described so beautifully by others, I can keep this short.

First of all, I hardly ever cry during sad shows or films, but I tense my muscles up a lot, so I was kind of sore this morning, but it was worth it. Not quite a Buffy-related injury, but close.

I was glad to see that Dawn has a black friend - stay away from the oxygen tanks & we may see you again!

If you've ever seen the (former) Siskel & Ebert film review show, you may have seen a part in which Ebert described one of the most delicious reactions a person can have when viewing: it's when you're watching a scene, thinking "Wouldn't it be perfect if they said or did ____" - and then they do that very same thing you imagined!

Whoa.

BBOvenGuy posted 02-28-2001 16:23 EST (US)
Not only does Dawn have a black friend, but one of the EMT's was black as well. Nice to know that at least some black people can survive in Sunnydale without meeting horrible painful deaths.

------------------
Come visit Now Leaving Sunnydale - A Showcase for Buffy Fans and their Non-Buffy creations

fanatico posted 02-28-2001 16:34 EST (US)
There were a few moments that *really* struck me. First, I almost started crying when Buffy pulled Joyce's skirt down. Her concern for her mother's dignity was so touching. Second, Willow's dorm-room scene. Third, the Dawn scene behind glass. And most poignantly, Anya trying to understand.

As far as Anya and Xander are concerned, I do wonder if there is some foreshadowing going on. Anya's difficulty with the new experience of mortality, combined with the reminder of Xander's mortality (when Xander's hand was injured and bloody) makes me wonder if there is trouble ahead for Anya and/or Xander.

Does anyone else think the trouble might have to do with her questioning whether the gifts of mortality are really worth it?

xita posted 02-28-2001 18:42 EST (US)
fanatico, Sean Gaffney welcome to the posting world of the kitten board.

I became a real fan of X/A during Where The Wild Things Are. As hateful as that ep is, there's that moment when you know they have more going on than B/R would ever have. And I kinda liked the subtle way of their love. But after Into The Woods, I kinda questioned it all. I didn't like what it took for Xander to say that and I almost felt like he was doing it to sort of prove to himself that Buffy was wrong. Now, I see this episode. The way they were not there for each other was obvious. And I agree with fanatico in that it seems like foreshadowing. I don't see good things for these two. On the other hand, too much pain this year already.

Edited to add that I thought the kiss was all kinds of good. I thought it was passionate, desperate, tender hungry and comforting. The situation was indeed romantic. Even my gf who was never one for w/t chemistry before told me she felt a twinge of sexuality from the kiss.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited February 28, 2001).]

xita posted 03-01-2001 12:16 EST (US)
Yeah, well i can double post!

Hmm, I think we get a clue to Tara's mom in this episode. Notice in Xander's rant, there's a close up on Tara and she has a weird expression on her face.

It's during this bit of dialogue:


I'll tell you what it is, it's the
frickin' doctors, I mean they just
let her out, you know, "clean bill a
health, dig a hole in your skull
here's a band-aid NEXT!"

Hmm.. i wonder.

Ok, and does anyone think that Tara and Willow have rooms in the same dorm? Cause it sounded like Tara could just jog down the hall to check for the shirt.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 01, 2001).]

tyche posted 03-01-2001 03:13 EST (US)
Uh, did you actually watch 'Into the Woods'? Because in the final scene Buffy & Riley has together he says VERY, VERY clearly that he wanted to give her as much support as possible, but he couldn't because she didn't tell him what was going on. He couldn't comfort her because SHE DIDN'T TELL HIM WHAT WAS GOING ON. Now this is not a matter of Buffy neglecting her family for his sake. All she had to do was TELL him so that he could help her. For whatever reason, she didn't (and honestly, how much effort does it take to make a phone call? Not very much.) It just so happened that this was a spectacular case of bad timing: Riley had become isolated from the gang as a result of the fall-out of the loss HE suffered last year. He was a prime candidate for some kind of mental breakdown. But when, exactly, did Buffy give him any moral support over the loss of his mentor, his friends and his and support system? (And remember that this happened WAY before Joyce got ill.) Oh, that's right. She didn't. So it cuts both ways.
Or maybe it's just that you see everything this character does in a negative light. If he single-handedly saved Willow and Tara from 300 angry slime demons, you'd still manage to interpret it in the most negative way possible.
Hugin posted 03-01-2001 04:16 EST (US)
(Lifts the moderator hose of decaffeination)

Play nice folks, all this Riley stuff is getting a little heated.

Having said that, I essentially agree with Tyche in this matter. Support is a two way street. Riley suffered mind destroying losses last season, and I didn't see much of anything from Buffy or the rest of the gang in the way of psychological or emotional support.

Riley did bad things, but the circumstances are so muddy at this point that I really wish folks would just move on. He's gone. I'm not saying Riley was in any way perfect. I'm saying, by no sane definition was he more "evil" than several other Buffy characters we always seem to give the benefit of the doubt. And again, he's gone.

W/T kissing. Focus people.

-len

Prairiegirl posted 03-01-2001 05:28 EST (US)
Small comment - the kisses were great but it was the two terms of endearment that made me melt.
darvangi posted 03-01-2001 06:02 EST (US)
From the PC of Darin, who posts from work when he shouldn't:

Death Drama Funk: my post about The Body

"Am I not the King of Comedy?" - Joss Whedon, 2/27/01, Bronze post

You're a strange bird if you couldn't find some sort of personal trauma or loss in your life to help you empathize with the characters' pain in this ep. So much of it was just dead-on perfect, with the usually calm and happy sounds of wind chimes and children playing suddenly having a reverse effect by so harshly contrasting the tragedy. The door being left open in Willow's dorm room so we could see the students walking by and going on with their lives. The everyday adolescent struggles of popularity games and flirting suddenly fading into the background an losing all meaning. Joss must having been paying attention to details all his life to be able to dredge these things up so clearly. I had to wait an hour and watch it a second time to catch the scenes I had missed originally because of my steamed-up glasses.

I loved how, in the dorm room scene, the camera was steady when it was on Tara, but hand-held and shaky when it was on Willow - just something very simple but effective to show that Tara was the anchor for Willow's storm-tossed emotions. Keeping in mind that I, as a Joss-worshipper, am always unspoiled, the progression and excitement of the W/T kiss was such a vicarious experience for me that I was reminded of my own first kiss (it was a girl, for those interested). And of course I realize this was not their first kiss together, just the first one on-screen, which is just as powerful to me. When Tara put her hands on Willow's neck, my fingertips could feel the tense nerves. When she leaned her forehead against Willow's, I could feel the humid heat that only comes from the face of a person who has been crying for a while. When her lips came down from the forehead kiss, I was reminded of the potent mixture of anticipation and fear that I felt as I was progressing towards my own first kiss - the distinct memory was coming back after so long in an amazing way. The lips touching - it was like an explosion. I couldn't tell for a second if I was really seeing it or not. I thought there must have been some kind of mistake the WB made in letting it slide past them. Then, when this kiss was all over except for a trickle of saliva hanging down between their lips (amplifying the passionate realism), I knew it was for real and it was the perfect circumstance for something so earth shattering to happen. Joss gave us the most intense death and passion ever seen on the show in the same ep. Typical stuff for a brilliant director, really.

Xita: I disagree about X/A in that I don't see bad things for them in the immediate future because of this ep. I saw Anya finally crying and coming to grips with her mortality, and hugging Giles in an awkward but earnest way. It looks to me like she might end up being a better partner for Xander with this experience.

I was really, majorly excited to see some racial diversity on the show - and good, likeable characters, too! Like Bob said, black people can survive in Sunnydale without grisly deaths. I thought the train porter victim a couple of weeks ago was adding insult to injury as far as the whiteness of the cast goes, but maybe Joss is starting to redeem the show with this ep. I hope it starts a trend.

BlackLab: I remember that Roger Ebert quote very well! Aww, I'm so emotionally weak after watching this ep, I'm gettin' choked up just thinking about Gene Siskel. I watched those 2 for 20 years since their days on PBS. I need to go watch some happy cartoons or something to get out of my death-drama funk.

Anyalvr posted 03-01-2001 07:31 EST (US)
quote:
Originally posted by tyche:
Uh, did you actually watch 'Into the Woods'? Because in the final scene Buffy & Riley has together he says VERY, VERY clearly that he wanted to give her as much support as possible, but he couldn't because she didn't tell him what was going on. He couldn't comfort her because SHE DIDN'T TELL HIM WHAT WAS GOING ON. Now this is not a matter of Buffy neglecting her family for his sake. All she had to do was TELL him so that he could help her. For whatever reason, she didn't (and honestly, how much effort does it take to make a phone call? Not very much.)

And not making a *phone call* when her mother is dying is some sort of wrong that means that a relationship should be ended? So what?
Her mom was dying. Why should she give a damn
about what Riley thinks about how she's acting? The fact that he had the *gall* to
throw such a hissy fit after she had been through such an ordeal shows how self-absorbed he is. Oh, it doesn't matter
that yr mom is dying, Buffy, I don't like how it makes *me* feel when you don't show enough vulnerability to make *me* feel special, so therefore you're a bad girlfriend and I have to leave you. Now that is certainly not the type of person I think will actually be there to support me when I'm down. Real support means being there for a person when they're down, even if they don't *act the way you want them to*. I don' see why I should think
Riley gave a damn about Buffy's pain when
all he can think about is not how his girlfriend is going through a tough time but
how her reaction to him during this time makes *him* feel.

The whole episode seemed to imply that Buffy should reorient her reactions around how it makes her boyfriend feel even when her loved ones are dying. That's a sexist and ridiculous assumption to make and if Anya held the same standard up to Xander when *his* mother was dying I would say the same thing.

When Buffy's mom was dying, all Riley could think about was himself and how she made *him* feel. The fact that she really *was*
dying reaffirms how self-absorbed he is.
Apparently his need to be a 'manly man' comes before everything. But Riley is NOT a manly man. A manly man doesn't throw hissy fits when his girlfriend shows the wrong reaction
when her mom is sick. A *real* man has enough security and self-confidence to give his
girlfriend patience to sort everything out, even when he feels like the way she is acting
is not really working for *him*.

That's my .02 on Riley. I warned people that
I hate him and everything I say about him is probably going to be negative. So people shouldn't be surprised when I call him a selfish bastard because I think he is one.

------------------
"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
-(drusilla, angel)

Ham posted 03-01-2001 10:19 EST (US)
well it took me many hours to actually get the ep, but boy was it worth it. Even just thinking about it now makes me well up.
The thing I loved the most about this ep was that it left you feeling horrible and empty. There was a detached feeling about the whole thing (due to the lack of score and use of sound) which made it even harder to process what was going on. Also the use of distance and weird shots (like the one of the Ambulance guy where you couldn't see his face) helped you to empathise with the characters and gave you a sense of dissorientation and an inability to truly grasp what was happening. It was all so very clever.

As has been said before it had a very theatrical feel, with it's minimal use of sets and scenes. There was often that '4th wall' feeling. I also liked the use of shots of Joyce's body at the start of every act, it really set the tone. The flashes to other outcomes just put in the middle was also impressive.

The use of the title was great, people reacted so strongly to the use of the word 'body'. Not wanting to see Joyce as just that and being unable to comprehend it, like when Buffy told Giles that they weren't supposed to move the body or when she was on the phone.

The acting was superb. As always, Willow cries, I cry. Aly even managed it in Consequences. But it was just made worse by Anya's outburst. To me that was amazing. We know how Willow would react, but to see Anya's pain and confusion, something I never expected, just made it all more horrible. The acting in this episode was just amazing all round.

Then of course the kiss. It was perfect, I could not have created a better one. It was so obviuosly full of love and comfort. The way it managed to sooth Willow proves how in love they truly are. One kiss conveyed everything that their relationship was about and was only magnified by the interaction of X/A. Add in the 'I love you' and the xmas scene and you get a wonderful ep for our witchy pair. I love Joss for the fact that he chose to give W/T those moments and show everyone what we knew was there all along.

I think this episode would prove to any doubters that this is not your average 'genre' programming. In fact I'd say it proves that Buffy is a far more exceptional show than many give it credit for. why can't more people make tv this good?

To sum up what has become a very long post I think I can simply say that Joss is truly and amazingly gifted indivual.

[This message has been edited by Ham (edited March 01, 2001).]

jojo _342 posted 03-01-2001 16:01 EST (US)
I hate to be the bearer of bad, poorly written reviews but here is David Hines Review of "The Body"
BlackLab posted 03-01-2001 16:32 EST (US)
What really got me was how Joss & Co. made me feel angry, then sad, then elated, then sad again: all the while my stomach twisting and muscles tensing, untensing, until it ended in a way that didn't even seem like an ending.

It's two days later and I'm still thinking about it, replaying scenes in my mind, wondering how it will continue.

As bad as Joyce's death was, this was the most satisfying episode (for me at least) in terms of W/T togetherness.

Anyalvr posted 03-01-2001 16:42 EST (US)
One thing that I haven't mentioned so far
is how much I like the scene where the Scoobies are in the hospital and there is massive hugging going on, and Anya grabs Giles all of a sudden and hugs him. The look
on Anthony's face - slightly surprised, but then comforting and fatherly is perfectly played, as he recognizes that Anya may be 1000 years old, but she's still very much a child.

Since ASH had pretty much the smallest part in this episode I thought he did a nice job with the little he was given.

------------------
"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
-(drusilla, angel)

Hugin posted 03-01-2001 16:52 EST (US)
I don't think it's bad or poorly written per se. Hines is a cranky-ish reviewer. He analyzes almost monomaniacally writing and directing of the episodes, he cared very much less about acting and music and visuals, but then again, he's a writer, it's what he knows, it's what he cares to focus on.

But he's not dumb, and he makes valid points. He simply chose to base his review on factors that, while true, were irrelevant to me.

Yes, the point Joss was making was obvious. Yes, nothing really happened in the episode really. Yes, it was a stab at recognition as "high quality TV" and Emmys. If that's a problem for you, than the episode is in trouble. I saw all of the things David saw. But see, I don't care.

Death is sad. Well duh. Just because it's an obvious idea, it doesn't make it artistically invalid to give it another go, especially when the level of craft is so high all around. I've seen lots of "tearjerker" episodes of TV shows where "a character died", and all the other characters were "sad". The Body has no conceptual originality there, and therefore no value....except this was the best example of the typse I've ever seen. That means something.

Guess what? David's little snippet of story did affect me a bit, as I read it. David's a good writer. If he thinks I'm stupid because I was silly enough to respond to the cues he built into his own writing, then that's his problem, not mine. Next time David, don't write it, and I won't be sad. I can't work with that level of cynicism, hopefully you can find an audience for your work that can.

As for it being an Emmy grab, well of course it was, at least in part. What artist doesn't, a few times in thier career, sit down to start a work precisely with the intent of being impressive. Sometimes you do work because it bubbles within you and you have to get it out, sometimes you do work because it seems to be the best way of getting from point a to point B, whether point B is to get a paycheck or to get the plot arc moving forward or whatever. And sometimes you just want to do something bold just to prove you can. So what?

Guess what David? Joss deserves an Emmy. He's deserved one for years. And I think it's pretty arrogant on David's part to say "oh, well, but he shouldn't "try" for an Emmy, he shouldn't "manuever" for an Emmy, that offends my sensibilities, that's below him. Bah.

The fact is, all art has an element of craft in it as well, just the minor nuts and bolts of the practicalities of creation. The Gates of Hell by Rodin is genius level art. If it doesn't get cast properly, it's junk, no matter what. Craft matters. Only the most narrow minded and arrogant art critics will deny this (and yes, there are narrow minded and arrogant art critics who will argue that craft doesn't matter. Whatever. It was a dumb idea when I was working in the art world, it's a dumb idea now)

There is some craft (rug weaving, sword making) that can be practiced at such an exquisitely high level, that the act becomes art in and of itself, even if the entire project is completely utilitarian in nature. David faults The Body because he doesn't feel it's art. In a way he's right. But it's an unbelievable piece of craft, which elevates it to art. And to ignore that is..I'll be kind...short sighted.

-len

tvsurfer posted 03-01-2001 16:56 EST (US)
wow Hines review is 180 degrees away from that of David B's of the New York Daily News who gave it 4 stars!!!!

Tuesday, February 27, 2001
Super Yet Natural
Tonight's 'Buffy' is a gem of realism

BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER. Tonight at 8, WB.
To those stubborn people who persist in failing to watch, much less recognize the quality of, the goofily titled WB series "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," I issue this challenge: Watch tonight at 8, when series creator Joss Whedon delivers an intense yet quiet one-hour masterpiece.

Long-time "Buffy" viewers, of course, will get more resonance out of tonight's drama, titled "The Body," than newcomers. Fans, after all, are familiar with the various relationships and apt to be reeling from the shock of the sudden, unusually natural death of one of the regular series characters.

Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar) does a different kind of soul-searching in this week's riveting episode. This isn't ruining any plot secret. The death was revealed as a cliffhanger shocker in last week's show, in a scene that is repeated to open tonight's program. Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar), endowed with superhuman fighting abilities and the mission to seek and destroy vampires and other evil, returns home to find her mother, Joyce (Kristine Sutherland), stretched out on the couch. Stretched out awkwardly — and, as it turns out, lifelessly.

The impulse, as a character or a viewer, is to expect foul play; this event, however, appears to be death by natural causes. And the hour, written and directed with brave intensity by Whedon, does nothing more — and nothing less — than detail how Buffy and her friends react to the situation.

It's an hour almost without artifice. There are no music cues whatsoever on the soundtrack; scenes play out at a deliberately slow pace, with all the silences and tensions intact. Except for one brief supernatural encounter, and dialogue both comic and dramatic arising from the fact that one of the characters (Emma Caulfield's Anya) is a very old spirit in a very young body, this "Buffy" is all normal, and all human. From the "911" call to the vigil at the hospital, it's all very real, and very revealing.

Whedon, as writer and director, takes some bold chances in trying to relay the emotions from Buffy's point of view. A lengthy flashback drives home the comfort that's about to be lost; a brief moment outdoors washes Buffy with sunlight and the distant laughter of children, both of which seem like mockeries under the circumstances, and encounters with medical personnel lapse into both hopeful fantasy and cynical delusion.

Gellar is fabulous here — like Whedon, this is Emmy-worthy work, and I'm not just talking about nominations. Michelle Trachtenberg, as Buffy's little sister, is great, too, as are all the regulars, especially Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson as Willow and Tara, Buffy's lesbian friends.

Tonight's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" will impress you. It also will haunt you — but not in the normal way associated with this still-evolving, still-achieving series.

BBOvenGuy posted 03-01-2001 16:59 EST (US)
Jojo, who exactly is David Hines and why should anyone care? I've seen his vitriol strewn around before, and I've never understood why he even bothers to write it. What exactly is he trying to accomplish?

On the other hand, we did start a bit of a discussion over on the Creativity Board about what exactly Joss was trying to do with this episode (hint: the word "Emmy" was never mentioned). If the EzBoard server decides to work again (it never does when I'm trying to promote it ) you're certainly welcome to check it out.

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Come visit Now Leaving Sunnydale - A Showcase for Buffy Fans and their Non-Buffy creations

Beautiful Tara's Girl posted 03-01-2001 17:09 EST (US)
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I am dying to see if I can bring this into my Novel and Film class for my final. It may not be a "film" per se, but it is a FINE example of filmmaking. The mise-en-scene was perfect in every respect, from the lack of soundtrack to the sharp cuts and closeups and camera angles, the contrast of life outside when everything around Buffy is death, the focus on insignificant things - paper towels, wind chimes - because there's nothing else to focus on. I think Scene One is enough to demonstrate some damn fine directing, and I don't really care if it's a TV show or not. I'm going to have to pick a fight with my teacher.

~BTG
(who realized this class corrupted her after she did start noticing camera angles for the first time)

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"We are the music-makers...and we are the dreamers of the dreams."
-Willy Wonka

jojo _342 posted 03-01-2001 18:21 EST (US)
LOL BB... I don't think anyone here should actually think that his opinion is more valid then anyone elses or actually "Care" at all. In My Opinion Joss wasn't just trying to say "Death is hard". He was taking what would seem like "easy" steps but are very hard for a writer to portray. He was saying that 1. Life goes on. People have explained this in enormous detail (from the vamp, to the noises, to the parking ticket) I won't go over it again. and 2. It's nothing but negative space around the object that defines it. As illustrated in Dawn's scene, Joss is will be drawing the negative energy around Joyce's death and therfore will be showing us her life. It's this way with any death. The reactions to a death is a direct correlation to who this person is.

I agree Wren. This episode in itself is a tad hard to review but the strange thing is some of the things he found as weaknesses I saw as strengths. Go Figure.

I seem to be babbiling. Especially weird for lurker.

Roxton posted 03-01-2001 18:59 EST (US)
Personally I never take reviews too seriously. What matters in the end is what the individual viewer takes away from the show. In the case of The Body I walked away feeling it was a powerful episode that had a tremendous impact on me.

One point that I was glad Joss took the time to make was that Joyce was supportive of Willow's and Tara's relationship and that she had accepted Tara as part of her extended family. With Joyce's death it was important that this question not be left unanswered.

xita posted 03-01-2001 19:58 EST (US)
Joyce's death was coming and I appreciate what Joss did. Joss isn't just a writer, he's a director and a producer. He wanted to convey the pain of death while trying out new and different techniques, not just in writing but in directing and camera work, everything. The man went all out to convey what death meant to the gang. It worked. That's all I care about.
xita posted 03-01-2001 20:14 EST (US)
Guys there are amazing caps at Extra Flamey and Stain and Varnish but you'll have to register with scifiacid for the pics at stain and varnish!
BBOvenGuy posted 03-01-2001 21:11 EST (US)
Something else I noticed during my obsessive-rewatching...

When Tara's talking about the tummy-rubbing and says, "She likes it when I..." it's not Willow's "that's just between us" look that gets Tara's attention. Tara's not even looking at Willow. What gets Tara's attention is Willow tugging on the hand she's holding. Check it out...

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Come visit Now Leaving Sunnydale - A Showcase for Buffy Fans and their Non-Buffy creations

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited March 01, 2001).]

Roxton posted 03-01-2001 21:19 EST (US)
I had noticed that Bob. It was fun watching Willow's reaction when Tara was talking about the tummy-rubbing. Although I think it just goes to show that Tara feels quite at home now as a member of the Scoobies.

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited March 01, 2001).]

Anyalvr posted 03-01-2001 21:20 EST (US)
I thought "The Body" was a neat way for Joss
to experiment with the format a little. Yes, it was a bit gimmick-y, but he did it for artistic reasons, not for ratings. Joss is
an incredibly creative person and BTVS is such an original show - I get the feeling if
it moved to another network he would not be able to pull off this type of stuff.

I think that it's intertesting that in the three most experimental BTVS episodes - "Hush", "Restless", and "The Body" that Tara
has played an extrmely vital role. There's something about Tara and the way Amber plays her that fits so well with this otherworldly quality.

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"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
-(drusilla, angel)

april posted 03-01-2001 21:32 EST (US)
i just love how comfortable w/t are with their relationship and with public displays of affection in front of the scoobies. they send the perfect message: that you should always be proud to be with who you love.

sorry if i'm being horribly cheesy and sentimental here, but i was just blindsided by an ER episode that was exactly the opposite of what i just stated above. thank god for willow and tara!

rocketdyke posted 03-01-2001 21:51 EST (US)
oh, i know, i know... ER... my tummy's all in knots. dr. weaver... get it in gear.

she better apologize, she better fix this.

rocketdyke

BBOvenGuy posted 03-01-2001 22:20 EST (US)
Okay, April, this is all your fault!

Upon seeing your ER comment, I decided to turn the show on and see what was what. I'm not an ER fan - I've actively avoided it through most of its run, in fact - so I'll admit I'm biased, but I've been through the first act now and I'm not impressed.

There was one thing, though - when the detective was interviewing Dr. Weaver and he asked, "What's your relationship with Dr. Legaspi?" the first thing that popped into my head was, "We're lesbian gay-type lovers!"

Alas, it was not what popped into Dr. Weaver's head. And therein lies all the difference...

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Come visit Now Leaving Sunnydale - A Showcase for Buffy Fans and their Non-Buffy creations

Zahir posted 03-01-2001 22:25 EST (US)
I adored this episode. It was just so, so beautiful because it was true--and showed pretty much all the characters rising to help each other.

A few other comments...

--Those kisses were perfect! All about love, and togetherness, and being there for each other. Everything love is supposed to be about.
--Can't tell you how much I loved Giles hugging both Anya and Xander.
--Poor Dawn. I have nothing but hopes for her, and fear all of them will be dashed. (BTW, did that guy in art class remind anybody else of Oz?)
--Anya and Xander are dealing, but neither one easily reveals this kind of pain. I doubt they are in trouble. And comparing them with W/T feels...mean.
--Oh. Yeah. I'm convinced some of you live in alternate timelines and watch a different BTVS. Riley not there for Buffy? When did that happen? He was always there for her, again and again. Sadly, they both had too much on their respective plates, so their love crashed and burned. Methinks it probably would have ended anyway, but that's another story. This seething (and to me, baffling) hatred of the character is disturbing. It reminds me very much of the abuse Tara gets in the newgroup. And leaves exactly as nasty a taste in the mouth.

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

SciFiAcid posted 03-02-2001 12:34 EST (US)
quote:
Originally posted by xita:
Ok, and does anyone think that Tara and Willow have rooms in the same dorm? Cause it sounded like Tara could just jog down the hall to check for the shirt.

Gawd! I hope this hasn't been answered yet! I haven't gotten to page 7 yet... oy! But yes, I thought that after Family xita. Because there is a cut, right before we cut into Tara's dorm, where they use the front door of the dorm and it says Stevenson Hall on it. Now this seems odd to me considering Hush where Tara had to walk across campus looking for Willow's room.

Um... eh.

xita posted 03-02-2001 12:41 EST (US)
Shit adrienne, i must rewatch. Though it looks so much like Tara's old room, they couldn't have repainted it so quickly. Hmm.. weird.

I am thinking, W/T are comfortable with their affection in public but not their sexuality? Know what I mean? Hence, Willow's silencing of the tummy rub.

SeanGaffney posted 03-02-2001 01:23 EST (US)
Oh, one last X/A thing (with W/T seasoning).

The other reason I tend not to favor the 'oooh, they're breaking up' thing is pure step outside the TV show reasoning. Think about it. Joss is trying, along with several other things, to show how different people react differently to the death of a loved one. He can't have *everyone* be loving and supportive, it makes for bad drama. So who's the obvious choice for loving and supportive? Right, W/T, as if there was any other. Plus Xander's already had a few anger management issues before. So dramatically, it makes sense that they were more withdrawn.

(But Sean, no Buffy couple has lasted as many eps as they have. They're bound to break up, Joss has done it to all the other couples.)

(Shut up! I deny your reality! Lalalala...)

I can then use that out-of-show rationalization to make myself feel better about any *in* character stuff. ^_^ Plus, of course, this is what WAFFy Xander/Anya fics are for.

...damn, Willow and Tara do the loving comfort well, don't they?

--SG

Utena posted 03-02-2001 01:41 EST (US)
quote:
There was one thing, though - when the detective was interviewing Dr. Weaver and he asked, "What's your relationship with Dr. Legaspi?" the first thing that popped into my head was, "We're lesbian gay-type lovers!"

Oh Bob, I fell out of my chair at that one! Literally fell! Oh Kerry, if you only had half the balls Willow has. Mmm I should rephrase that, but I won't.
Ick to this whole ER rubbish! I surrounded myself with Kittens and W/T goodness as I suffered.
Joss knows how to make this little gal happy. Flaming Os. Vixens. Lesbian gay-type lovers. Be with the one you love. Kiss. Es. Kisses. Oh to wrap myself in the happiness and near perfection that is Willow Tara-ness...I need nothing else!

quote:
I am thinking, W/T are comfortable with their affection in public but not their sexuality? Know what I mean? Hence, Willow's silencing of the tummy rub.

But Xita, wouldnt that tummy rub-age qualify as affection? I can see how it can be considered somewhat sexual...but when I think of rubbing tummies my first thought is of affection.
Either way, I'm not sure it has to mean that they're not any less comfortable with their sexuality in public than a lot of other couples. I mean comparing them to Anya and Xander..well yeees...but well..it's Anya. And we know shes special.
What I'm saying is that her reaction if she considers it sexual ground seems no different than a person not wanting their more private terms of endearment/lovey dovey actions made public. Like someone who's not into PDA. Not necessarily not being comfortable with sexuality, but more of a protocal thing. I hope that makes sense.

I think listening to the Backstreet Boys is impairing my thought processes.

xita posted 03-02-2001 01:48 EST (US)
well, I didn't mean sexuality as in gayness, I mean in general as in private stuff. And I think rubbing tummy would be a naked tummy activity... and I have no idea how Tara might have finished her thoughts.

Sean, I worry about x/a. Long time those two have been going out. But I wish them no harm really.

Mara posted 03-02-2001 06:23 EST (US)
Xita... I don't think there's aproblem with the Willow silencing Tara about the tummy rub... I think heterossexual couples don't share stuff like that either anyway, so...
xita posted 03-02-2001 07:19 EST (US)
Oh, trust me Mara, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I was just making an observation. I think they both might be rather private about that aspect of their relationship.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 02, 2001).]

tvsurfer posted 03-02-2001 07:25 EST (US)
I haven't seen all the eppies but I'm trying to catch up and at least read the scripts

so far to me willow hasn't seemed to shy about discussing dates and deeds with buffy in one on ones ('she needs her vicarious smoochies') and she's talked with the scoobies openly about Oz being her "people blankie and the bronze being her place blankie but perhaps being in the Summers home with "adults/mom" and "kids/Dawn" present she is uncomfortable with discussions of affection?

Oh here is another observation, from what I can tell, to date buffy has always been the one to say "I love you" to Willow (or at least be the one to initiate that statement)
I think this is the first eppie where Willow has taken the lead and said "ILU" to buffy

and hey !! I'm a cool monster fighter !!

[This message has been edited by tvsurfer (edited March 02, 2001).]

BBOvenGuy posted 03-02-2001 12:17 EST (US)
quote:
Originally posted by Utena:
Oh Kerry, if you only had half the balls Willow has. Mmm I should rephrase that, but I won't.

I was thinking last night that perhaps Kim and Kerry should get a visit from The Naughty Witches. You know, for... um, spell-casting lessons.

Where's Froggy? We have a new fic mission for him!!!

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Come visit Now Leaving Sunnydale - A Showcase for Buffy Fans and their Non-Buffy creations

Faith_Yashuu posted 03-02-2001 14:12 EST (US)
I just noticed something...
Back in "Triangle" Tara tells Buffy "Willow says everything happens for a reason" I wonder if this has anything to do with her mom when she said that. Anyways, The tummy rubbing: I don't see how that could be considered sexual, since Willow was feeling sick. But I liked Tara's little burst of confidence. I think she's becoming more her own person now, like when she started the spicy talk on IWMTLY.
SeanGaffney posted 03-02-2001 15:00 EST (US)
One more thing just occurred to me, and it's a sign of Joss' sure hand and talent that I didn't realize it until now (well, that or me being thick, but I refuse to believe that I'm not an intelligent, charming, charismatic young stud, so that leaves Joss being talented. ^_^).

Anyway, I finally got around to thinking, what would this ep have been like without Dawn, our new cast member? And I realized I simply couldn't. Dawn was instrumental to the episode. I fear what Buffy would have coped like without Dawn's pain to ground her.

Moreover, I had forgotten that everyone, including Dawn, was aware of the whole 'key' thing. You'd certainly never know it by the way everyone behaved. No sign of 'hey, is her pain really valid here' from anyone. Including the audience.

That's the other thing. Dawn has occasionally irritated me the same way any precocious teen would, but I've never been irritated by the way she's written or acted. I accept Dawn and Michelle. *Far* more easily than I ever thought I would. In a way I never accepted Riley or Marc. And that leads me, once again, to the point that I simply cannot imagine what The Body would have been without Dawn in it.

Um... on topic, right. Willow! Tara! Woo!

There. ^_^

--SG

Wonko posted 03-02-2001 15:05 EST (US)
Hi, new here. Well, now the formalities are over with...

Just popping briefly out of lurkerdom for a small over-analysing type comment.

Watching 'The Freshman' today I noticed the scene where Buffy and Willow are in the bookshop and Buffy says:

"Wow, I can't wait 'til mom gets the bill for these books. I hope it's a funny anneurism."

Oh man. If Buffy ever remembers she said that....

Anyway, so we know Joss thinks up storylines years in advance (Dawn, Little Miss Muffet and all that) so do you think he'd been planning this or was that just a throaway line?

And yes, I have a history of over-analysying :-)

Wonko

PS - I've tried to register for this board but I always get a Connection Refused error message. Is it just my computer?

april posted 03-02-2001 15:16 EST (US)
okay, from the looks of the double posting going on, it seems like we've about taxed this thread to its limit. i'll be helpful and start discussion thread part 2, since i know we all have tons more to say about this ep...

moderators, would you help me out and close this thread? pretty please? i luuuuuv you....

xita posted 03-02-2001 18:27 EST (US)
Sean by the way, nothing related to buffy is off topic at the board. So you can talk about anything you want there