Rome

[Hemiola]

So...the season finale:

1. Whoever their historical advisor is, he or she is very knowledgeable, since there was a wonderfully authentic "land blessing" ceremony (Yes, a married couple was expected to "fake" intercourse as a way of encouraging the fertility of the land--a classic example of "sympathetic" magic!).

2. The Ides of March have come! Of course, I missed some important details: it would have been nice to have the dying Caesar say to Brutus "Kai su, teknon?" ("You too, my child?), which is what Suetonius reports that he said to him in Greek (Shakespeare's "Et tu, Brute?" is fictional ). Also, it was reported that Caesar did indeed finally expire lying at the foot of a statue of Pompey, his former enemy and son-in-law, and it would have been nice to actually depict that interesting bit of irony.

I wonder if Irene will actually forgive Pullo?
Too bad about Niobe; I'm going to miss her **sadness**. I hope Vorenus won't take it out on that poor little boy!

Nasty threats from Servilia--but Octavian will outsmart them all!

[Culzean]

That was a powerful episode. And, again, I am left with mixed feelings about Caesar. After he says "I want the best men in Italy in the Senate, not just the wealthiest men in Rome." I really couldn't sympathize with the wealthy Romans who wanted to do him in.

Again, those common folks in the senate may just have been there for show, but the sentiment was leading in the right direction.

I liked Niobe too. And I liked the relationship between she and Vorenus. I don't think Vorenus will hurt the child. The little tyke looks way too much like Niobe.

I'm not too up on my Roman history, but based on the look Marcus gave Brutus, I'd say Brutus is screwed.

I loved the scene between Servilia and Atia. Those two are very powerful actors and they really burn up the scenery together. Hem - is there any historical record of these two, or did HBO make them up?

I am intrigued to hear that Octavian will outsmart everyone. I'm just sorry we'll have to wait so long to see the next season.

[Tyrex316]

It seems like the writers of Rome are eschewing "history" for dramatic license. Not that I'm complaining. Makes for several rather interesting plotlines for upcoming seasons. The upcoming MA/Atia/Cleo triangle will be interesting. One that would have been less so with historically accurate Octavia in Atia's place.The ever present sexual tension that will exist between Octavian/Octavia the whole series will be interesting to say the the least. Anyone else notice her stealing glances at him much like he was doing to her in "Utica"? MA/Octavian potential allies,as they lay all havok upon Caesar's assassins, who become enemies.

[seurat]

I was impressed with the season finale, it was both moving and surprising at times. I actualy liked that they kept Ceasar silent in the death scene, it made it even more dramatic and the acting was so good that everything was conveyed to us anyway. And I suspect a lot of people would have expect him to use the Et tu Brutus line, so perhaps it was better that they keep him silent. I loved the touch of Ceasar trying to cover his face with the robe as his last gesture. They also did a very clever job of getting all his companions out of the way. Poor Posca, I hope he is alright. MA backing carefully out of the hall with that look of hatred on his face, chilling. And Octavian has the same look as he's leaving Servilla, I wonder how long it will take Servilla to realize how much trouble she's going to be in now. Incidentally, I can't believe how long it took me to figure out that Servilla must have been behind the painting of those likenesses of her son killing Caesar all over the city, all part of her scheme I'm sure.

Eirene and Pullo bothered me a bit, walking off hand in hand with the man who killed her fiance and all, but it was a different time and who knows what her true feelings for him are, perhaps she was temporarily won over by seeing him at prayer, he does seem genuinely penitent. I didn't see Niobe's suicide coming at all, and Vorenus was completely destoyed by it, despite the fact he had been in a rage moments earlier.

They even made me laugh a couple of times, both with the exchanges between Ceasar and Posca (Something like "he doesn't trust me to tie my own sandals.") and with Pulo waiting hopefully at the fountain for the hero worshipping women to mob him. The billboard or him and Vorenus was great too. Too bad we have to wait such a long time to see more.

[Hemiola]

Hi Culzean**waves**

As Tyrex pointed out, a lot of the Atia/Servilia stuff is fictional and/or speculation, although these women certainly were powerful and influential. Indeed, as Tyrex says, it was Octavia who was married to Marc Antony at this time, and there was much clucking in Rome about the differences between the virtuous (!) Roman wife Octavia vs. the decadent Egyptian queen Cleo.

As for Brutus, oh yes, he'll "get his" at Philippi.

[Hemiola]

Just reviving this thread to mention that I have purchased and watched the DVD set of "Rome". It is an excellent production, and a good investment for those who enjoyed the series.

It consists of six discs, 1-5 containing the twelve episodes, with a sixth devoted to documentaries and photos. Several of the episodes have commentaries, by the actors (Kevin McKidd [Vorenus] and Ray Stevenson [Pullo]) and directors, and four of them include the brilliant historical consultant for the series, Jonathan Stamp. Also, there is a special "All Roads Lead To Rome" interactive feature, which when activated produces little VH-1 style "pop-ups" that exlpain a lot of the obscure historical/cultural details of the show. All in all, I found this set to be a very worthwhile purchase.

There is considerable emphasis in the set that what was shown on HBO was "Season One". I certainly hope that this is true, since it would be wonderful to see the Second Triumvirate vs. the Assassins, and the emergence of Octavian as the ultimate "Princeps" (="First Citizen"; it's the source of our word "prince") of the Roman Empire. I fear, though, that HBO will chicken out because of the cost (it is the most expensive series they have ever produced, and cost factors have already caused them to drop "Deadwood" and "Carnivale" ).

[seurat]

Glad to hear the dvd is so good, I've been waiting on the purchase because it is expensive. I guess I'll have to spend the hundred bucks on it though.

There is definitely a second season, they are in fact partly through shooting it already. I knew about this sometime ago since one of the actresses on the show had to drop out of the Broadway cast of Lieutenant Of Inishmore because she was called back for shooting on Rome. (Her last name is Duncan, can't remember her first name at the moment.) This has since been confirmed elsewhere. However it is also the last season for Rome, no season 3 for sure..

[Hemiola]

This is great news, seurat--thanks so much!
I shall be anxiously awaiting its arrival: it will be exciting to observe the founding of the Roman Empire (as opposed to the death of the Republic in the First Season) through the eyes of Vorenus and Pullo (who, no doubt, will be on opposing sides! Remember that Vorenus swore loyalty to Marc Antony, while Pullo established a friendly relationship with Octavian--this should make for very interesting viewing.). :-)

Incidentally, I believe the actress in question is Lindsay Duncan, who brilliantly portrayed Servilia.

It's rather a shame that they won't go on to a Third Season. However, it should be noted that those interested in the continuation of the story can purchase the DVD set of the brilliant "I Claudius" series, which takes the history of Julio-Claudians from the middle of the reign of Augustus (=Octavian) all the way to the death of Claudius and the accession of Nero.

Perhaps someone will have the courage to do a series about the accession of the Flavians through to the end of the Antonines (i.e. Commodus--the movie "Gladiator" was just silly).

[Hemiola]

Reviving this thread to announce that HBO has scheduled the airing of Season Two of this wonderful series for JANUARY.

So we're off to a running start, with the whole city in disarray after the assassination of Caesar.

Poor Vorenus: he is truly, as Shakespeare put, "Fortune's Fool"--in his despair he loses everything. Maybe Pullo can stop him from sinking completely into madness...

Bravo to Max Pirkis, who is already showing the mettle and cool rationality that will turn Gaius Julius Octavianus into Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Divi Filius Imperator!

Marc Antony is truly scary (although not as evil as Erastes Fulmen )--things should get really interesting when Cleopatra shows up...

[Hemiola]

**bump** (see edited entry above )

[seurat]

That was hugely impressive, wasn't it? I was expecting a lot and it still exceeded my expectations. I have only one real complaint, so I'll deal with that right away. I didn't like what happened to the chidlren of Vorenus. Since he's not a historical character, that was a writer's choice and I think it would have been enough anguish for the character to have him lose his wife and find out his son was not actually his by blood. At any rate, I didn't like it.

But the rest , so much I liked that it would be hard for me to know where to start. Good to see Posca alive, I hope they continue to find some use for him on the show. Eirene looked amazing this ep, and I'm about ready to believe in her and Pullo ("i know we got off on a bad foot and all, with me killing your man..." Priceless.) I love Pullo's decision making process, instantly stealing the messengers horse to get back to Rome upon hearing the news, or in the scene with Octavian when he finds out that Octavian was indirectly responsible for the current mess, he just puts it out of his mind because he trusts Octavian. You;re right about Max Perkis in this role, he's great, but, uh, don't get too used to him being there. The producers decided he wouldn't be good as the mature Octavian. Mark Anthony was wonderful, loved his confidence the morning of the funeral as compared to Brutus and his nervously practising his speech. Really, I could go on and on about this ep, it was that good.

[Hemiola]

Once again I'm obliged to say: Poor Vorenus--it's so sad to see this once straight-arrow officer/magistrate/senator turn into a kind of gangster. But there is hope! The ending showed us that Erastes Fulmen lied, and that rather than killing Vorenus' children, he sold them into slavery. One can only hope that there will be a happy reunion.

It is still fascinating to watch the growth of Octavian, who has shown that he is not afraid of Mark Antony or his own formidable mother. It is interesting that we heard Octavian mention a person who will become very important later on: his friend Marcus Agrippa, who will eventually become the admiral of Augustus' Imperial Fleet (and, later still, his son-in-law!).

As far as Antony is concerned, he just continues to show that Caesar was right about him--he's capable of "all manner of wickedness".

[seurat]

I had a suspicion the children weren't dead, so I wasn't too surprised by the reveal at the end. Still lots of trouble ahead for them though, I'm sure. As for Vorenus, although it is wrenching to see him going against all he stood for previously, that was quite a scene when he smashed the sacred statue. I know history demands that all of the events we're seeing dramatised have to occur pretty quickly, but I wish they could have dragged out some of this a little longer, just so we could see more of the young wily Octavian and Max Pirkis. Not sure how many more ep's he's in, but his going away like that can't be a good sign. Loved that line of his, something like I'm determined to seek a political career. Damn right, he is. That made me chuckle, knowing some of what lies ahead for him.

Lots of other good scenes as usual, the subplot with Timon and his brother could get interesting for example. And even though Mark Antony is hardly a smypathetic character, the actor is doing a spectacular job. I was a little disappointed in Cleopatra this time though, I guess I prefer the younger season one character. Great scene with her and Atia meeting though.

[Tyrex316]

Unfortunately, this was Max's last ep. Octavian is completely absent in ep 3 but comes back in episode 4 and will be portrayed by an actor named Simon Woods according to imdb he was in "Pride and Prejudice" w/Kiera Knightley and did two episodes of the BBC drama "Spooks" or "MI5" in the US. Loved the title for the ep-"Son of Hades" which I don't think rightly applies to Lucius, there was a son born of Hades in this ep but he was the one leaving Rome at the end of it. Another thing that surprised me in this ep-the fact that Servilia knows Atia's kids better than she does. She's the one that sees how octavia can be easily manipulated and telling Brutus not to underestimate Octavian like Marc Antony has.

[Hemiola]

Wow, that was certainly a complicated episode, with all the different plot threads and characters...

I rejoice that with Lyde's escape, it looks like Vorenus may have a chance to recover his children, and his sanity as well. We'll just have to see.

Hmmm. I wonder what Timon's brother is up to. The Jewish Revolt is not scheduled to occur for another 60 years, but it is a fact that many parties were jockeying for the rule of Judea at this time. I don't think he's working for the Herodians (since he seems to be religiously observant), but is more likely working for the Maccabean party.

I can hardly wait for the next episode: first and foremost to see what happens to Atia (I can't believe they'll kill her off--she's such a good character ), but also to get a look at the "new" Octavian Caesar!

On a final note, it was great to hear a short snippet from Cicero's "Phillipics", the famous series of anti-Antony (say that three times fast! ) speeches that Cicero delivered to the Senate. Too bad that such brilliant invective ultimately got him killed.....

[gspiggott]

I think this show is visually stunning even by HBO/BBC standards. I wonder if Agrippa will play a more prominent part in the story , and what the time frame is for the second series , for instance will we make it to Philippi or Actium. I like the actor who plays Marc Antony but the actress who plays Cleopatra is a disappointment and lacking her legendary charm. Timon's brother is definitely up to something.

[seurat]

So what's the verdict on the new Octavian? My thumb isn't up or down yet, but I'm leaning towards down. I miss Max.

Glad that Vorenus has his family back, sort of. What happened to Servillia was horrible, but I find to work up any sympathy. Atia isn't much better of course. Do we really have time to do anything with the Timon subplot?

[Hemiola]

Hi Seurat! [waves]

I, too, already miss Max, but I'm willing to give the new guy a chance. Looks like we're building up to the formation of the "Second Triumvirate" (Antony/Octavian Caesar/Lepidus) that will soon go after Brutus and Cassius. I wonder who they'll get to play Lepidus?

I also rejoice that Vorenus got his family back, and especially that he took the little boy with him as well as his daughters. Things will be very difficult between them, though...

It looks like Timon's brother reminded him of his basic humanity. One wonders if he will continue doing any work for Atia...

I can hardly wait for the next episode!

[Hemiola]

I know, I know, I'm beginning to sound monotonous with my enthusiasm for this series, but it really is the best darn thing on TV right now.

Poor Vorena. I hope she will be able to reconcile with her father, since her plans for running away will clearly not bring anything good to her or her siblings--perhaps Lyde can help.

As for the Julii vs. the Junii, it looks like, as I predicted, that we will see the formation of the Second Triumvirate. From the tiny "peek" we got in the preview, perhaps this time we will get a full-scale depiction of the Battle of Philippi (as opposed to the rather desultory version of Pharsalus that we got in Season 1). The actor who plays Lepidus looks familiar--I've seen him before but I can't quite place him.

Poor Agrippa--if they follow history, he will be heartbroken when Octavia goes and marries Antony. Still, it would provide a motive as to why Agrippa founght so hard to defeat Antony at Actium.

[Hemiola]

Sure enough, we got much better battle scenes in this episode than we did last season. To be sure, they were still not on the scale of, say, "Spartacus" or even the more recent "Gladiator", but they were nonetheless an improvement.

It seems that the writers/producers wanted to give Brutus and Cassius more "heroic" deaths, but according to Plutarch, they both killed themselves rather than be captured. Cassius supposedly ordered one of his men to kill him, and the man did so decapitating him. Brutus famously asked a companion to hold his sword while he "ran upon it", thus eviscerating himself.

It's a good thing that the writers were frank about the infamous Proscription Lists of the Second Triumvirate. It is estimated that some 2,000 people were murdered, including Cicero. Incidentally, the historical Cicero did try to flee for his life, but was caught on the road. Realizing he had no chance, he offered his neck to his killers and was beheaded. :(

So it looks like Timon and his brother are joining a group of "Sicarii", which is the word that Josephus uses to characterize the militant Judean nationalists of his time. It was these groups that eventually started the revolt against Rome some 60 years later.

Unfortunate to have to wait two weeks for the next episode.

[Culzean]

I also love this program. The way power keeps jumping from one person/group to the another is absolutely dizzying.

Thanks again, Hemiola, for the actual history!

[Hemiola]

Another dazzlingly great episode, with much potential for pain for these characters:

Poor Servilia--I suppose we shouldn't be surprised; she wasn't too stable to start with.

Poor Vorenus--I shudder to think what will happen when he finds out about his daughter, since he, too, is not very stable. Also, it may be a terrible thing to say, but Pullo would have been better off if he had just beaten that woman.

Poor Timon--sad to think how he will live with himself after his brother's death; perhaps he will return to Judea and take up his cause. For what it's worth, Herod eventually got his deserved fate: Josephus tells us that his corpse started to putrefy while he was still alive!!!

And finally poor Octavia--given away like a poker chip to Marc Antony. I wonder if the writers will follow history here: Octavia actually became the model of the "Ideal Roman Wife", who received much sympathy and support from the Roman people after Antony took up with Cleo. Incidentally, their daughter, Antonia, became a valued member of Augustus' household, and was the mother of two of the most famous Romans: Germanicus and the stuttering, sickly (later emperor) Claudius.

[seurat]

This ep actually felt a little too full Hem, I would have welcomed more chances to catch my breath and just enjoy being in this world with these characters. That's one of the reasons why I really liked the scene with Pullo and Eirene on the bed, beautifully shot from above and nicely written and played by both actors. I think I've finally made my mind up about the new Octavian and I'm going thumbs down I'm afraid. He just doesn't bring any sympathy to the role, as Max, I'm sure, would have managed to do.

Best line of the night? Perhaps a tie between MA's "Now that's an exit" after Servilia's curse and suicide, and Atia's response to being offered some fancy dish at MA/Octavia's wedding -'I'd rather eat shit." LOL. I did guess what Servilia was going to do, but only after she started the speech to Atia and her gods, I knew a curse as formal and cutting as that required some major sacrifice. A great scene, although not one I'll be in a hurry to see again.

What else? I hate Gaia and don't find her attractive at all. Hope she fails in her plan to harm Eirene and the baby. Vorena is doomed and probably deserves it for being so gullible. And as much as I'd like to see this end happily for both Vorenus and Pullo, I suspect we'll be lucky if either one of them is standing at the end, let alone happy.

[gspiggott]

Only one episode left , and I'm starting to wonder if I can incorporate any of the news reader's gestures into everyday conversation. I also vote thumbs down on Simon who is just too icy and uninvolving, as well as Livia who was considered one of the most beautiful women in Rome but is played by a wispy chipmunk.
Seeing a cgi shot of the Pharos was wonderful, but ancient Alexandria was one of the world's great cities and they don't convey that , but I suppose that is understandable due to budget constraints.Servilia's curse is certainly coming true for Atia, and poor Titus Pullo who killed Eirene's lover to have her for himself now loses her to Gaia's plotting.
Is the baby Antonia the namesake of the Fortress of Antonia in Jerusalem?

[Hemiola]

Yup, another terrific episode, leaving me very disappointed that this season only has 10 (as opposed to 12 for season one).

Anyway, yes indeed, the Antonia Fortress, which was built to house the soldiers of the Legio X Fretensis ("Tenth Legion of the Straits") who served as the garrison of Jerusalem, was named after Marc Antony's family name. Herod, ever anxious to suck up to his patrons, was later to construct an entire city, Caesarea Maritima, in honor of Octavian (="Caesar Augustus"), which contained a temple in honor of the Julii!

An interesting sidenote to the above is that immediately after the defeat/death of Antony, Josephus tells us that Herod made his way quick like a bunny to Octavian to curry favor with the "new boss". Knowing that Herod had been associated with Antony, Octavian was at first naturally suspicious. However, Herod won him over by saying "Don't think of me as having been allied to your enemy, but think instead what kind of a friend I was to him! I would be just as loyal to you."

I predicted a few posts ago that eventually Pullo and Vorenus would wind up on opposite sides of the civil war. Now we'll have to see how this ultimately affects them.

[seurat]

I liked both of these most recent ep's very much, although the first made me sad, and the latest one makes me fearful. Sad because of Eirene and the baby and the decison by Vorenus to leave Rome. Fearful- well because the show is ending and any number of terrible things are likely to happen.

As for what I liked recently, how great is Jocasta becoming? I nearly died when she came out to welcome Atia and Octavia, and laughed even more when Posca appeared to shepherd her away. Ah, Posca, how I'll miss you. And the newsreader! We all could profit from taking a course in how to make an announcement with suitable flourishes.

Glad to see Gaia get her just deserts, and loved Pullo's emotional transformation in that scene. Also thought the actress playing Livia is suitably creepy - loved her biting off the stuffed songbird's head the other week. Still not loving Cleo these days but they did a decent job of establishing the bond between her and MA in the limited time they had. Yes, the real weakness here is HBO not being willing to pay the freight for a couple more ep's Shame.

[Culzean]

When Vorenus was playing catch with Cleo's kid, and telling the boy about his father, was he talking about Ceaser or Pullo? I'm thinking Pullo.

[seurat]

It was clearly Pullo he was describing, and I loved that scene.

I thought I read somewhere that the final ep was going to be 1 1/2 hours long, but now I can't find any confirmation of that so maybe I'm hallucinating. Wishful thinking perhaps.

[werewolf123]

Only place i have seen the 1 1/2 hour remark is on the TWOP spoiler board.

[Culzean]

Per HBO.com, the finale is 65 minutes.