The L Word - Lesbian Series for Showtime Network

[billy]

Since Jen said she's been at Pride Parades with the cast of The L Word she might have been in the episode set at LA Pride.

Actually wasn't she at LA Pride last year wearing a blonde wig? She might have just happened to be there when they were filming.

[Puff]

What I have noticed about the show is how the are radically changing (some might say destroying) their characters. You have Tina going for the timber after having Bette cheat on her in the first season, who would have thought she would have cheated? You have Dana kicking Lara out and basically being a bitch to everyone when she was so lovey dovey with Lara, you have Jenny who thank god has improved, you have the complete swtich in Helena from bitch to shy lover almost, you have Ivan who courted Kit and then they decide he is in a relationship already and last but in no means least you have Lara leaving Dana and going to France when Dana is ill (as if!). I'd love to know what the writers are thinking when they rapidly change their characters, I mean I know there is character growth but some of it is ridiculous.

[Culzean]

I'm with you Puff! I like the actors, but I have always found the writing to be uneven. I like Helen this season, but my feelings are tempered by the nagging thought that this is not the same person.

It's like the writers are just twisting the characters to fit their stories.

I'm also getting tired of their constant "sexuality is fluid" theme. I know it's fluid for some folks, but it's not fluid at all for a whole lot of others.

And, speaking of things I'm tired of - enough Betty already!

RE: last Sundays episode (stop reading if you haven't seen it yet) -

I thought Helen and Dylan looked great together. But I'm sure they're headed for a crash.

I'm actually glad to see that Carmen and Shane are having some problems. I like them as a couple, but it would have been unrealistic for Shane to cheat on Carmen and then have that situation resolved after just one conversation.

And Dana....so sad. But, also kind of annoying because Lara should be there.

Which brings me back to the uneven writing.

[Culzean]

Sorry about the double post. The web and I are having issues.

[fontaine13]

Oh God please stop with all this Betty stuff. I swear at this rate, the "others" on Lost, are gonna turn out to be Betty.

[Kendahl897]

I think IC went to the Joss school of TV writing..'Misery equals drama', so that's what we're going to give you folks cause we know best. It seems to me that on this show, its not enough to piss the fans offf. They want to add insult to injury. Dana and Lara are a prime example of this..

[Ben Varkentine]

Okay, admitting upfront that I haven't seen all of every single episode, so it's quite possible I've missed something. And of course, I'm so not the target audience.

But it's hard to avoid The L Word if you have Showtime, and from what I've seen I have a question. I may be totally wrong here, and I'm sure one or two of you will tell me if I am, but...does this show seem strangely loveless to anyone else?

Sometimes I can't help thinking that if I wanted to show that yes, some women do like to have sex with other women, this would be the show I would show them. But not if I wanted to show anybody that sometimes women actually do love other women.

The characters seem to live in this weird candyland where sexual gratification is only a ride to a beach house away, and any thought of comittment they might actually have made to another person is trumped by their throbbing genitals.

Is it just me, or...?

[Candleshoe]

It's not just you, Ben...

[dorksrcool]

Ben,
I have The L Word to thank for my discovery of W/T for the very reason that the show is "loveless," as you put it. A friend of mine stopped by my house last April and watched a little bit of the second season with me. She was disgusted after about ten minutes (she's straight, but not narrow). She said (and I will never forget this for obvious reasons), "If you want to see a real lesbian relationship that's actually romantic and full of love than you really need to watch Willow and Tara on Buffy." I took her advice and here I am, an official W/T addict.

I don't care for The L Word very much. I watch it because I'm pretty starved for any lesbian content on television, but I don't watch it because I necessarily enjoy doing so. I can't relate to any of the characters or their lives. It appeals to my "throbbing genitals" sometimes , but if I want to get a warm, fuzzy feeling about two women being in love I throw in Season 5 of BTVS. Kudos to A/A for that!

[Ben Varkentine]

I don't care for The L Word very much. I watch it because I'm pretty starved for any lesbian content on television, but I don't watch it because I necessarily enjoy doing so. I can't relate to any of the characters or their lives.

I have something of an aversion/attraction to it myself, and I suspect that in a world where there was as much lesbian content on television as there should be, it wouldn't be nearly as big a hit (in Showtime terms).

From my POV, I'm also kind of alienated by the fact that (again, unless I've missed it) there are absolutely no "good" straight male characters. We all seem to be represented by people like the voyeur roommate from last season.

Now, given what I know about the representation of gays on TV, obviously I'm not saying that's some great miscarriage of justice. Some might even call it a balancing of the scales. IIt's just kind of off-putting to me.

[Culzean]

Well, Kit's new boyfriend seems like a nice guy. And the guy from the first season, whose name I have totally forgotten, wasn't really a bad fellow. I actually felt sorry for him. He got totally screwed.

But you're right, Ben, I think the overall impression you get about the guys on TLW is pretty negative. And, personally, I don't care for that either.

If it's any consolation to you, I think many viewers probably leave with an unbalanced and negative impression of lesbians as well.

Tis a sad state of affairs.... Thank goodness for Out of Practice and South of Nowhere.

[Ben Varkentine]

the guy from the first season, whose name I have totally forgotten, wasn't really a bad fellow. I actually felt sorry for him. He got totally screwed.

Who, Jenny's boyfriend? If that's who you mean I agree, but at least he did have a good moment or two (I thought) in the episode where he goes away.

If it's any consolation to you, I think many viewers probably leave with an unbalanced and negative impression of lesbians as well.

Ah gee, now why would you say that? But honestly, I don't need that much consolation-like I say, it may even give me a more viscereal idea of what it's like for lesbians watching "straight" TV.

[GayNow]

it may even give me a more viscereal idea of what it's like for lesbians watching "straight" TV.

I think that's the main thing. The show doesn't have a large viewership necessarily because the show is so amazing and wonderful and true. I think it's because lesbians are saying, "Look! Lesbians! There's a bunch of them, too! Wow!"

On The L Word, lesbians aren't invisible.

[billy]

I have The L Word to thank for my discovery of W/T for the very reason that the show is "loveless," as you put it. A friend of mine stopped by my house last April and watched a little bit of the second season with me. She was disgusted after about ten minutes (she's straight, but not narrow). She said (and I will never forget this for obvious reasons), "If you want to see a real lesbian relationship that's actually romantic and full of love than you really need to watch Willow and Tara on Buffy." I took her advice and here I am, an official W/T addict.

It was W/T that got me looking for other TV shows and movies with gay characters and although there are some pretty good gay movies I've yet to find anything that comes close to Season 4 and 5 W/T.

I'm not familiar with Showtime programming. Are The L Word and Queer as Folk pretty typical as far as nudity and sex go? Are there similar shows with straight characters?

[Ben Varkentine]

On The L Word, lesbians aren't invisible.

No-but they also don't seem to live in anything resembling the real world.

[GayNow]

No-but they also don't seem to live in anything resembling the real world.

This is true. But...do the folks from Friends live in anything resembling the real world? Do the folks from Melrose Place live in anything resembling the real world? Do the folks from Desperate Housewives live in anything resembling the real world?

Hell, sometimes I wonder if I'm living in anything resembling the real world.

Again, I think it's simply a visibility issue. We may not agree that this is a 'real world' depiction. We may not agree that these are 'real' people. But they are openly identified as lesbian and we can watch them on TV.

*shrug* That's my take on it, anyway.

[LesbianJedi87]

Bringing ths discussion back around to the actual episodes

I havent watched last night's episode in full yet but I DID see the preview and a clip for next week. Quit reading if you dont want to be spoiled.

Spoiler:

Well it seem's Dana's death is definite. I've never seen a preview like that with the outcome being good. "sigh" Assume crash posistion's everybody who love's Dana.

I did see the clip of Tina and Mikey. Ugh is all I have to say.
Definatly NOT lookin forward to next week. :(

[Ben Varkentine]

GayNow-

Fair points. I don't want to make too much of that part of my negative reaction to the series. Me thinking that not all of the performances are everything they could be, and the writing is worse, has a lot more to do with that.

For example, and I'll try to be vague here for those of you who haven't seen it, did Dylan and especially Helena just make a seemingly totally unmotivated twist in their characterizations? I'm not talking about what was revealed about Dylan, I'm talking about the scene that set it up. Was that in character for Helena and I've just missed it?

Of course, between this and the voyeur roommate last season, looks like the ladies of The L Word need to learn one important lesson: If someone turns a video camera on you, run away!

[LesbianJedi87]

I have no word's for this episode. It was devistating. Heartbreaking. Gutwrenching. I cried like a baby. Argh. That's when you know you're in deep with something. :(

One more ep before the season finale eh? Is it just me or has this season gone by way too fast? "sighs some more"

ugh.

[Culzean]

Don't read this if you haven't seen the 3/12/06 episode.



I liked Kate Moening in the PSA/discussion that followed the episode. She said she was angry after hearing of the plans to kill off Dana, and said she disagreed with the decision.

I have to go with Kate on that. This show needs comedic balance, and Dana and Alice were the ones who supplied that. I think this will be a weaker show without the character of Dana.

I think it was a good episode overall, though there was too much broadcasting that Dana would die, and die alone. That took away a lot of the drama for me.

However, to be honest, since the demise of Xena and Tara I haven't let myself get that emotionally involved with television characters. It just isn't worth it. There are way too many writers and producers out there coming up with ways to kill off people's favorite characters.

[beanie]

I just found out! Unfortunately, I don't have cable so my lovely lovely friend provides me with L Word updates, but for once I'm glad I don't have cable. I would've broken my new TV had I seen it.

I completely agree with the comedic balance/loveless comments left by you guys. I have seen and loved the first two seasons because frankly, the characters stayed the same and there was a constant motion forward. Okay well I liked it all except for Jenny because she was getting a little too dramatically emotional. But as I heard of updates from my friend for the current season, I couldn't believe how much each character changed. I mean every single one of them. And then to kill off such an important and INTERESTING character like Dana.

This is going to sound awful and superficial, but I think at least it should have been Jenny or Kit. I mean, Jenny is the most logical to die because even though she has improved significantly this season, she's still in her whole "I am sad and depressed because I am a minsunderstood artist" phase. And Kit, well let's face it. The only reason why they put Kit on the show in the first place was to have a black, plus size, straight woman on the show. I sound like a bitch, but honestly the creators put all of the underrepresented characteristics on their show into one person. And well, after she conquered her bout with alcoholism and her relationship with Bette, she's gotten a little boring. But Dana . . . of all the characters to kill off. I'm very disappointed with the writers.

My friend did come up with a wacky idea though. What if Alice and Lara got together? I mean, could it even be a possibility? Comfort in the arms of the enemy anyone?

-beanie

[Ben Varkentine]

This is going to sound awful and superficial, but I think at least it should have been Jenny or Kit. I mean, Jenny is the most logical to die because even though she has improved significantly this season, she's still in her whole "I am sad and depressed because I am a minsunderstood artist" phase.

I'll take some of the "awful and superficial" stigma off you by admitting something. There's a scene in this episode where Jenny, after meeting with her ex-husband and his new wife, says "I would have killed myself if that were my life."

I yelled "If only that had been your life!"

The sense I get, from here, one or two LJ posts I found with a Yahoo! search, and AfterEllen's wonderfully sane recaps, is that nobody is very happy with this choice by the writers. It'll be interesting to see if the show's ratings/revews reflect that.

For my part, I had no emotional investment in Dana, so her death didn't make me sad, or offend me. What did offend me was the self-congratulatory bullshit that followed about how "groundbreaking" the episode was. And how "the loss of the character reminds us of the true heroes..." (women who are battling breast cancer).

That offended me as someone who values subtlety in his art and entertainment, and real sentiment as opposed to Hallmark. There's an old saying about how credit you give yourself isn't worth having.

And it offended me as someone whose mother had breast cancer (and her recovery from it was the strongest thing I have ever seen her do). Because it was like they were invoking women like her as a way of saying "It is forbidden to dislike this episode, because you'll be dishonoring the true heroes..."

That's how it felt to me, anyway. But, those of you who did have an investment in the character do have my sympathy.

[Tiggrscorpio]

This show continues to disappoint me. I understand it is supposed to be dramatic, but my goodness, does everyone have to be miserable? I can't help but find myself comparing it to season six of another show we all know...betrayal, fighting, no communication, everyone's unhappy and death!!!

Breast cancer is an important issue and I applaud the show for addressing it. More women certainly need to be educated. Yes, it is the number one killer of women and that fact should be spoken about, but was it really necessary to make that point with one of the main characters. Couldn't Dana have befriended someone who ended up losing their battle with this dreaded disease? If if they did it because Erin Daniels wanted to leave the show, couldn't she have won her battle and flew off to Paris with Lara to LIVE happily ever after? What's wrong with showing hope? Women can beat this enemy. Stress the importance of early detection, regular testing, treatment and the unique concept of victory. Maybe I'm crazy, but that would be something I'd want to watch.

Anyway...Leisha continues to amaze me. She had me crying my eyes out at the end. I feel like Tina and Helena have done this 'Freaky Friday' switch and their personalities from last season have changed bodies. Carmen and Shane are hot, but I fear they are headed for disaster with their plans. I've missed Jennifer Beals the last few episodes. I suppose the writers may not have known how to conceal her pregnancy, so they sent her off to the meditation camp, but I've definitely felt Bette's absence. I'm glad to see she'll be back (and fighting as this season commands) next week.

[fontaine13]

I totally second that. My mother is currently having treatment for bowel cancer and having lost my grandmother to breast cancer, the last thing I need or want to see is a badly handled, poorly written, rushed and horribly inaccurate portrayal of what a cancer patient goes through. Honestly unless you have been living under a rock we are all well aware of the seriousness of breast and every other kind of cancer. Besides I hardly need IC and EZslag to tell me. Speaking if EZSlag, I believe it was her that said "party on Dana" Yes EZ when I see a cancer patient having lost their hair after chemo I am sure they want to "party on". What is this 1992? If you want to encourage people to get themselves checked out then its not going to work by scaring the shit out of them with this ratings grabbing stunt.

Get out know Leisha and Kate, you are too talented to act out this dross.

[urnofosiris]

Breast cancer is an important issue and I applaud the show for addressing it. More women certainly need to be educated. Yes, it is the number one killer of women and that fact should be spoken about, but was it really necessary to make that point with one of the main characters.

I agree with everything you said, except this: breast cancer is not the number one killer of women. At least it is not in the Netherlands and my guess that the same can be said for the US was correct. Heart disease in the number one killer of women.

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4786

Heart disease isn't just a man's disease. Heart attack, stroke and other cardiovascular diseases are devastating to women, too. In fact, coronary heart disease, which causes heart attack, is the leading cause of death for American women. Many women believe that cancer is more of a threat, but they're wrong. Nearly twice as many women in the United States die of heart disease and stroke as from all forms of cancer, including breast cancer.

I do not want to lessen in any way the importance of raising public awareness about any type of cancer, whether through fictional characters or real life people talking about it, but I feel it is important to point this out and that heart disease needs to be addressed more when of these two diseases it is the bigger killer and the one that can be easiest prevented (to a degree) and treated if caught in time. It is a continuing misconception that heart disease is a man's disease, which can have terrible consequences for women who are diagnosed too late or not at all.

As for this show, I watched this season again out of curiosity over that Moira character. Dana's death was coming from a mile away, all be it a very short mile. Exactly how many weeks did all of this take? They did not deal with shit, they just threw a few of the usual cliches at us. Dana's homophobic parents trying to keep Lara away from her. Moron doctor suddenly doing that I cannot tell you anything because you are not family shit. Dana pushing her lover away. Lara going away against her character. Dana dead. I never could get into the L word, so it is rather easy to get out again.

[maudmac]

I liked Kate Moening in the PSA/discussion that followed the episode.

[snip]

This show needs comedic balance, and Dana and Alice were the ones who supplied that.

[snip]

There are way too many writers and producers out there coming up with ways to kill off people's favorite characters.

Uh-huh, I totally agree. Kate seemed a bit peeved in that thing and I thought she was probably a lot more peeved than she showed. About comedic balance, Dana and Alice were great for that, especially early on, I thought. I know what you mean about not getting too invested, because it seems the TV people love to turn peace and beauty and fun into a bloody mess of depressing suffering and horrors. TV would be boring if it were all The Land of Happy, but it's equally boring when it's all The Land of Unhappy, too.

I couldn't believe how much each character changed. I mean every single one of them.

[snip]

I think at least it should have been Jenny or Kit.

[snip]

What if Alice and Lara got together?

I think one of the biggest flaws this season is how unbelievably different the characters are now. Suddenly, out of the blue and with no explanation, Helena is a genuinely warm, caring, thoughtful friend? WTF happened to her?!? That's been the most egregious example, I think. Tina has really been an asshole this season, too. While I have never liked her, she was never this horrible. I'm not even talking about her heading back to boystown, either, because if that's what she wants now, she ought to go for it. No, I'm talking about the way she's been so short and cold to Bette. Granted, Bette has done some shitty things to Tina, but Tina was never like this. It's like the writers just tossed out most of what the characters are supposed to be like and wrote a new show with new characters who happen to have the same names and be played by the same cast. Ridiculous.

I don't necessarily think Jenny or Kit should die, of course, but it would be plausible for Jenny to take her own life, yes, and I agree that a Kit-less L Word wouldn't be a whole lot different from the way it is now. I don't know what's going on with Jenny this season. They still don't seem to know what to do with her. I've vacillated between hating her and loving her since the show began, but all I feel for Jenny now is a great big meh. I love me some Pam Grier, but her storyline is zzzzzzzz. I think Angus is awesome and I'm happy for them, but it's just not all that entertaining, really. Actually, if I could vote off a character, it would be Tina, because I despise her with tremendous passion. Or Max. He bugs. I don't like his attitude and what is this possessive jealousy borderline-violent thing with Jenny? Are we supposed to believe the hormones are making him that way? If so, what does that say about maleness? Either way, it's not acceptable behavior under any circumstances. And there's not a drop of chemistry between him and Jenny and I don't think the writers are doing a good job telling the whole trans story here. (Don't get me started on that conversation they all had in an earlier ep at that fancy restaurant about the butch/femme issue. It took me days to stop ranting to my friends about that one and I've forgotten most of my major points by now.) Anyway, about Max. That could've been a really intriguing story there, with lots of topics to discuss, but it seems they've only touched on a few of those issues. Now, I don't want a show to just be a forum for discussing social issues and debating various points of view, of course. I want to be entertained. But there's no reason the writers couldn't delve a little more deeply into what makes these characters tick while entertaining us at the same time.

Spoiler:

About Alice and Lara, I did read a spoiler a while back that said they will be getting together, at least to have sex.

What did offend me was the self-congratulatory bullshit that followed about how "groundbreaking" the episode was.

Indeed. It's like they think they're the first show to have a Very Special Episode about breast cancer. I know breast cancer is of special concern to lesbians, because our rates are higher than straight women's, but it's still not exactly groundbreaking stuff. Twenty, thirty years ago, maybe. Which isn't to say they shouldn't address breast cancer at all, only to say that it's obnoxious when they pat themselves on the back as though they're pioneers....when they just killed someone. What is the message there? Get cancer, die? This is...is it supposed to be uplifting or empowering or consoling or something? Were we supposed to be inspired by Dana's strength and spirit during her battle? Who knows. I don't think the writers have a clue.

If if they did it because Erin Daniels wanted to leave the show, couldn't she have won her battle and flew off to Paris with Lara to LIVE happily ever after? What's wrong with showing hope? Women can beat this enemy. Stress the importance of early detection, regular testing, treatment and the unique concept of victory. Maybe I'm crazy, but that would be something I'd want to watch.

[snip]

Leisha continues to amaze me.

All the rumors I read a while back said that's exactly why they did it - Erin wanted to leave. Not necessarily that they killed Dana to punish Erin, but just that with Dana needing to be off the show somehow anyway, they saw an opportunity to have what they probably thought would be great drama, and to deal with an important issue at the same time. No reason at all why they couldn't have done it exactly as you described, and I think that would've been a far superior story and message. Everyone will be affected in some way by cancer. If you don't get it, someone you care about will. Everyone in the world knows that some people die from cancer, just like we all know that some people get hit by random magical bullets. This is a lesson we didn't need. But a lesson about overcoming cancer? Sign me up.

Leisha really is amazing. I'm starting to believe she's the most talented actor in the cast.

Speaking if EZSlag...

I noticed they really cut down on the Betty presence this season, which is wonderful. I was so fucking tired of them being shoehorned into everything last season. But I had to laugh when I saw that ep, because I thought, "Goddammit, you just couldn't resist squishing them into the story, could you? How conveeeeenient that Kit is in the studio and needs musicians. Where you gonna get musicians? Why, Betty, of course!" Actually, that whole part with Kit in the studio seemed like a contrivance to get Betty on the show. Unless Nona Hendryx was banging on Chaiken's door for a guest spot, and if she were, she could've just played the stupid Planet like everyone else.

As for this show, I watched this season again out of curiosity over that Moira character. Dana's death was coming from a mile away. Exactly how many weeks did all of this take. They did not deal with shit, they just threw a few of the usual cliches at us, Dana's homophobic parents trying to keep Lara away from her, moron doctor suddenly doing that I cannot tell you anything because you are not family shit, Dana pushing her lover away, lover going away against her character, Dana dead.

I am curious about your take on Moira/Max, if you don't mind sharing.

No, they didn't really deal with Dana's stuff much at all, I agree. It was all in like 3 episodes or something. About Dana pushing Lara away, that bugged me a lot. Not that she did that, because that's not uncommon and it's understandable. But you're right, there is no way the real Lara would have left. Backed off, given Dana space? Sure. Moved out, even? Okay. But left the country? Fuck that. The real Lara wouldn't even have left town. She would've gone to stay with a friend. Or she could probably have stayed in a hotel for what she spent on that trip. Whatever, she would not have gone so far from Dana that she couldn't be at her side at a moment's notice. Even if Dana totally broke up with her, Lara still wouldn't have gone too far away. That made no sense, except as a way to twist the knife and made Dana's death that much sadder.

How many episodes left? One or two? I really love to hate this show. I keep watching the thing, even though it makes me curse at the TV and want to throw things. Sad.

[urnofosiris]

I am curious about your take on Moira/Max, if you don't mind sharing.

On the contrary, there have hardly been any comments about Moira/Max so far so I just kept silent, but I have whole lot to say if you get me started. I have not watched the last couple of episodes yet, just read about them so I am not all up to date on what he is up to now. I have to download the eps, but I can comment on what I have seen so far.

Now first of all I should say that this of course is my own personal opinion and I cannot, want not and do not speak for any other transgendered people. I am only really in personal contact with one other FTM (I am one myself btw, for those here who did not that about me) and that contact is not all that deep anyway. If you like Moira/Max, best not to read on after this.

On a completely subjective level I disliked Moira/Max from the start, something (probably the way he walks, talks and pisses) about him bugs the shit out of me. His whiny I do not belong anywhere boo hoo attitude just annoys me too much to allow me to care for him.
He was incredibly rude during that dinner with that stupid lobster story. Jenny's friends were trying to be nice to him, though clumsily at times, and that is the way he says thanks before he runs off in a self pitying huff. He was downright anti woman and why? Just because he does not want to be one?

How do we find out that he does not want to be a woman? Let's see. Some Irish gay guy tells him and voila, suddenly Moira wants to be Max. Like with Dana, how did they deal with anything there? When he wants to start taking hormones Jenny, and rightly so, asks him how long he has been considering this and Max just shrugs a bit and says something like he has thought about it for a while. Well that explains it then. I'll just forget about him emphatically stating he is a girl when he was thought to be a man by that homophobic chick in that bathroom. He could have just walked away and told her he prefers the girls bathroom as they stink less of piss, which believe you me is true. This led to a positively depressing scene when said chick immediately tells her friends about "that freak" and we get this Boys don't Cry re-enactment in which Jenny has to save his ass, which hurts his manly pride all the more.

Later Max puts on a rubber dick and the aforemention Irish gay guy sucks it and that makes Max feel like a man and not just a girl with a plastic dick. Well, to each his own I guess. I do not quite get why that dick is so important to Max. Is it because a penis makes a man? Hmm, well if that were the case then there would not be any MTFs and FTMs. I don't know how it is for most FTMs, but my sense of gender is really not related to the presence or absence of a penis, rubber or otherwise.

I think that, as is the case with gay characters or any other type of 'minority' characters, it is important that there are positive transgendered role models in the media, on TV and in the movies, for the purpose of selfidentification and education. Depressed, crazy, criminal and or dead 'role models' are not really helpful.
I had to figure out for myself what the deal was with me, I could have used someone to identify with. My antipathy towards Max probably colors everything he says or does and the way his character has been written and portrayed, but if I try to look at him objectively and think about whether this character would have done me any good back when I was dealing with the whole gender changing thing, I really think I would rather have never seen the likes of Max.

What I have found when I discovered this board and read people's coming out stories and issues, is that my feelings are quite the same. Grosso modo, 'discovering' you are transgendered, dealing with it, coming out or not, the process is the same, the feelings are the same, the possible consequences are quite the same as when you are bi or gay. Added problems can be the physically trying and financial aspects and legal issues in many countries.

So what could they have done with Max? Well I can't claim to know best, but instead of what we got, they could have let him and Jenny have actual conversations about his feelings and his fears. Make us understand and like him more instead of having him just leap into "I am going to take hormones now and have an irish queen suck my rubber dick".
They could have shown other people's reactions to his coming out, address the (often quite understandable) prejudices and misconceptions we might all harbor and deal with them without making someone a blatant bigot who wants to rape him or an asshole that won't give him a job and says all the wrong things. Yeah I know that shit happens, like cancer and magic bullets, but I can get depressed on my own quite well thank you. Show something positive please, deal with the negative stuff if you must, but don't beat me to death with it.

Well, that is quite enough for now. Aren't you glad you asked Holley? I will try and download the last episodes asap and maybe I'll mollify my opinion somewhat, but from what you wrote, I fear I may only want to rant more.

[Tiggrscorpio]

Heart disease in the number one killer of women.

Thanks for correcting me on that out DrG. It's a great point and something every woman should know.

On topic: I haven't said too much about Moira/Max because it's not an area I'm very familiar with. Again, I think the show had a wonderful opportunity to present something important. Instead, all I've taken away from what they have presented is that testosterone injections make you act like an jerk. Even if that is an accurate reaction, I don't feel like it's the most important aspect they could have focused on. Once again, the storyline feels rushed. Maybe the writers didn't feel like they were going to get a 4th season.

Either way, I will keep tuning in. Some representation is better than nothing, I suppose, so I will continue support the show.

[Candleshoe]

Let me say from the outset that I haven't seen any of season 3, just picked up bits and bobs from the internet.

I did wonder whether this:

Some representation is better than nothing, I suppose

was a universally held belief, though?

Every time I hear about this season (remembering that I haven't seen any of it, just heard the things that poeple want to discuss) it seems like a bigger and bigger example of The Cliche. I'm not sure that, for me, any representation is better than nothing. I would rather writers shut up than portrayed us as sleazy, unfocused, angry, ignorant, dead, or "confused". There are enough writers doing that in the rest of the TV Land, frankly...

Just my tiny opinion...please don't all throw things at once.

[Tiggrscorpio]

I'm not sure that, for me, any representation is better than nothing. I would rather writers shut up than portrayed us as sleazy, unfocused, angry, ignorant, dead, or "confused". There are enough writers doing that in the rest of the TV Land, frankly...

This is certainly a valid point, Candleshoe. As one of the older kittens on the board (40 and loving it ), I grew up yearning for some type of reflection of who I was and what I was feeling. When I got anything at all, which was rare, it was mostly cliche.

The GLBT community has come a long way since I was a little girl. This show doesn't always get it wrong. It makes me feel good to know that young woman today, who may be struggling with their sexuality, have something to tune in to. The isolation I grew up with made me believe I was completely different from everyone else in the world. Even if those young women watching today can only relate to the fact that there are other women with similar feelings as their own, I think it's worth it.