Joan of Arcadia

[Kieli]

To be honest, this whole ep irked the shit out of me, mostly because I think it sent the wrong message.....that it's more important to keep your mouth shut than teach the kids that censorship, in any form, is not tolerated. If those parents and kid were so damned offended, they could've offered other viable solutions other than trashing another student's work. I don't think Joan's mom should've had to apologise nor should she feel guilty about anything. Adam was right in sticking up for her when the parents came to complain.



I now know where adults get their apathy for the voting process: it starts in high school and dealing with the air-headed, vacuous and superficial student council election process. It was never about who would do the best job (even in a private school like mine); it was always about who had more money, who was more popular, etc. I was glad, though, that Joan took the high road and decided to not "out" Lars until he was ready to handle the backlash. He was an ass, granted, but that was no excuse to use his personal life in the attempt to dissuade voters. We have enough of that shit in our own presidential elections....kids follow the examples of the elders, even in high school. This brought that fact home very succinctly. Hopefully, a few parents will pay attention, see the similarities and make some proper changes (i.e. encouraging their children to ignore personal lives and voting for a candidate based on their qualifications, their "mission statement" and their actions).



Papa Girardi already started pissing me off last season; this season has done nothing to endear me to him thus far. He's a self-righteous, sanctimonious ass whose own investigation helped to get his boss removed and not the current police chief. She just stepped into his place. He's displacing his guilt on someone who doesn't deserve it. If he hadn't started looking into cop corruption, his boss might still be there. But he did and now he doesn't want to face the consequences of his actions...but that's no surprise...he had problems with that last season as well.



I hate to say it but JoA is losing me this season. I've almost stopped watching completely, especially now that they've neutered Grace completely. Judith rocks...it's apparent that she's loyal to Joan and would do anything for her, even when she goes on about stuff being uncool. Is she meant to replace Grace? Possibly...Grace has been too wrapped up in Luke to even be a good friend to Joan....she's just giving her shit every time you see them together.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[BBOvenGuy]

Yes, I'm afraid Joan is suffering a bit of a sophomore slump. It's almost like the plot elements that could have gone wrong but didn't last year are haunting them now.



Will Gerardi is a good example. He's become completely disconnected from the rest of the show. I feel like they gave Joe Mantegna top billing in order to sign him, and now they don't know what to do with him. Either that, or they had to sell the show to the network by giving Joe Mantegna top billing, and now they don't know what to do with him. And it doesn't help that they use that annoying blue filter for every police scene.



Second, yes they've undermined Grace. If they want to pair her up with someone, even Luke, that's fine, but can't they have her do it as Grace?



But the biggest problem for me is that they've taken God out of the story. Last year, God and Joan had a relationship. This year, God is just like a walking fortune cookie who shows up and spouts vague statements once or twice an episode. Joan spent all summer at "crazy camp" because of what happened at the end of last season. They dealt with it for an episode or two, but now it's gone. Was that really all there was to say on that subject?



I'm holding out hope, though. Buffy had some weak episodes at the start of its second season, too, and they managed to pull things together and have several good years. So maybe Joan will rebound, too.

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child

[Gatito Grande]

I don't want to comment about this past week's show, until I watch it again (God, I'm feeling old: this year, in particular, until I watch the show again w/ the closed captions on, I feel like I'm missing things left and right ). However, it does feel pretty much official: JofA has hit the Infamous "Sophomore Slump." (The Good News: so many truly classic TV shows do pull out of the slump, to go on to be those classics)



The October 15 show did have some things going for it: the whole Joan/Adam/Larry the Cat dynamic (really liked the ending . . . although the fact that her mom just told her about the birds perhaps made it a bit too obvious).



Cloris Leachman, though, seemed to be your basic "Aunt Mary Jane" guest star: heard about, for the first and only time, in order to raise a point (then sayonara).



Where is this show going w/ the casting? Sprague Graydon's "Judith" has clearly been brought in to bolster it, and now Annie Potts (in order to keep me and everyone else from fast-forwarding through the cop segments, I suspect?) makes the strategy more obvious. (Doesn't it almost feel like a focus-group's work? "Add to the cast." "Make Grace less butch." )



Speaking of which: I don't have a problem w/ the notion that Grace has been shaped by her mom's alcohol problem (reticent, defensive, private-to-the-point-of-paranoid). But it wouldn't dictate her basic "presentation," if you will, and I do resent that, in exploring her opening up to Luke, that that would somehow feminize her (and I can't help making SWUTL comparisons again: Consequences comes to mind. You share painful personal stuff w/ your female friend first).



GG To wit, just one thing about Oct. 22: Grace wearing a cap-sleeved shirt (blouse?). My Grace would not wear cap-sleeves (which, frankly, don't look good on *anyone*). Out



ETA: Are you channeling me, Bob? I go and take 20 minutes plus to post, and you take all my key ideas/phrases (from Not Grace, to Sophomore Slump, to SWUTL)! Good call on the God-problem, though: I've been meaning to mention how lame this constant "Talk to the hand" thang that God's been doing every freakin' time now (IIRC, it was only sometimes, last season). Though I was never the "JofA-God" fan that some were (GG sez "Accept no substitutes: waiting to see JofA-God literally die!" )

Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 10/24/04 9:47 pm

[Kieli]

Did anyone else notice that Amber Tamblyn could actually sing?? She held her own relatively well against the musical theatre geeks

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[urnofosiris]

Yeah I noticed, she really can sing. I´d be interested to hear how she sounds singing a proper song.

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To be honest, this whole ep irked the shit out of me, mostly because I think it sent the wrong message.....that it's more important to keep your mouth shut than teach the kids that censorship, in any form, is not tolerated. If those parents and kid were so damned offended, they could've offered other viable solutions other than trashing another student's work. I don't think Joan's mom should've had to apologise nor should she feel guilty about anything. Adam was right in sticking up for her when the parents came to complain.

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Agreed, basically it came down to them forcing their beliefs on others. The rest of the world should adapt to them. Period. What´s next? If they think being gay is wrong then a gay student should not be allowed to sit in the same classroom as their daughter? If they got this upset over a dead animal, I´d hate to think what their reaction would be if that were the case. Would mother Girardi still be apologizing in that case. This whole B plot just seemed to serve the purpose of making Joan "see the light", i.e. that she should not try to hurt that guy just to win that election.



I was actually highly surprised to see that Joan would even consider using homophobia (glad to see at least Judith acknowledged exactly what it was they were doing) to hurt Lars. It seems really out of character for her.

Maybe the writers meant to send some message about how elections should be about the contents, not mud slinging, but it was hardly an original or a constructive way to get their point across. The bottomline once again is that if you are gay, you better hide it or you will get hurt. Yeah, that is reality in a lot of places, but this does not really help to change that reality. Bleh, I think I´ll go watch Fucking Amal again, just to remind me that it is possible.

[tyche]

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www.tvshowsondvd.com/news...ewsID=2334

Joan of Arcadia - Is Joan coming to DVD yet? YES!!! Posted by David Lambert

10/19/2004

Late last month we posted this news item, where we told our readers that, despite rumors, CBS and distributor Paramount did not yet have plans to release Joan of Arcadia on DVD.



Now we have word directly from Paramount that this show is indeed on the schedule for 2005! Something changed during the past few weeks...indeed, probably in the past few days, because this title has just appeared on the studio's tentative 2005 schedule since last Thursday.



CBS/Paramount is working on plans to get two sets out during the 2005 year: a 1st Season set in the first part of the year, and then around mid-to-late September they want to put out the 2nd Season on DVD to help promote the following season of the show.



Please remember that this is very early word, and quite subject to change. Stay tuned, and we'll let you know more just as soon as we can!

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Pro bono, which I think means,'Sucker Who Doesn't Get Paid' in Latin.

- Veronica Mars

[Iamyouknowyours]

I've been very disappointed with Joan this season. Sigh. The show may have been a one season wonder. This episode showed some promise of getting back to the good though (that and I didn't think the party episode was too terrible). Feeling a little more chemistry between Grace and Luke this ep, but it's still pretty forced. Funny thing is I thought they had chemistry up the wazoo when they were fighting last season. Still think they'd be better as friends. And the "my mom is an alcoholic" thing is still way too Party of Five for me. I want the old Grace back, bitter and sarcastic and with a backbone. Where are the brilliant and funny anti-society comments I so loved? Did anyone notice she had no interaction whatsoever with Joan this episode? Hasn't had much in other episodes either. And I don't think she's spoken at all to Adam. Hmmm... seems like they're using the new girl (Judith, right?) as an insta best friend to replace Grace and moving her to the role of brother's girl friend. It's not Becky's fault, and she's obviously doing what she can with the role, but I think the whole situation could be handled better. Want to pair her up with Luke? Fine. Just make it more in character. The five minute rule was cute, but I'd love to see more of her beating up a guy for trying to pick on him, giving Luke a slug in the shoulder instead of googily eyes, the whole no one can pick on him but me thing, etc. She's butch and he's a wimp so play it up. Let her wear the pants and leather jacket in the relationship. It doesn't mean she can't grow as a character, but the process of her opening up should be gradual and used for maximum entertainment value. Not to mention there is the weirdness of the fact that Becky is obviously a decade older than Micheal. Not to say she doesn't look hot as hot can be (and even hotter in person).



To their credit, as hoaky as it was they did get a little "aww" out of me for the this is my boyfiend comment. I'm not saying it was good writing, because it wasn't, but I'm a sucker for the sap, what can I say? I just wish that the writers weren't throwing away the wonderful characters they worked so hard to craft in season one. Luke has lost all personality as well. He speaks the science speak, but basically all he does is make out with Grace and try to get her to talk in "I fee" sentences. And Joan's mother's sudden spirituality is random and basically pointless. Love the ex-nun though. If Grace isn't allowed to be a bad-ass anymore, at least someone it.



Joan's new friend Judith or whatever has no reason to be on the show and should have been a one episode guest star just long enough to OD. She's a talented actress, but she should stick to Six Feet Under and other projects. Her character is just messing up the great chemistry Joan, Adam and Grace used to have.



Kevin's lawsuit is a poor attempt to milk more drama out of a show that has enough potential for more realistic and meaningful drama. And at least there was less cop stuff this ep. If I wanted to watch a cop show I would watch Law and Order. The police scenes work the best when they directly corrolate with Joan's mission, like in Bringith It On. Otherwise they just distract from the point of the episode and take up valuable time in which other issues could be resolved.



I'm gonna wait out this season and hope it gets better, but if the next season starts to blow or Grace starts wearing pink regularly in a nonmocking fashion I am outta there before you can say "Over Steven DeKnight's dead body."



Man, who would have thought they would make Grace Luke's bitch instead of the other way around? I wonder if they got complaints for having a potentially lesbian character and are trying to ease off the preassure or what? It would be nice if they left Grace the potential to be Bi though, or at least still questioning. I mean as long as they are true to the character and let Becky shine I don't care who she's paired up with. But this pairing currently sucks. Who else thinks there would be a lot more sizzle if she were making out in the back room with Joan? I do! I do!

[Gatito Grande]

What you said, Iam: totally.



Is Judith the Devil? I agree w/ Kieli, that Sprague Grayden is a talented cutie-pie (I'm so there w/ ya, Friedman!), but what is the point of her character---other than as a blatant replacement to Grace? (So ironic that the credits have that wonderful "Grace and Joan sitting on the porch" shot: certainly haven't seen anything like that this year! And Grace smiling: sure made more sense, to me, when it was Joan raining down copies of her poem, than mushy smiles w/ Luke.) I didn't buy that Joan would even consider outing Lars last week, and I didn't buy her one-off (I hope!) Anya-imitation this week (Adam Smith? Puh-leez! )*



As far as ethical dilemmas: I'm not sure about this one (w/ the coat, specifically). At a church rummage sale---I've worked plenty---workers getting first crack (at market prices) of "the good stuff" is a given: there's nothing wrong w/ it whatsoever (it's assumed that said worker will keep or give away such merchandise, but I've never heard it said "Thou shalt not sell"). Now, w/ a clothing give-away to the homeless, it's a little different: but I don't see a real problem, as long as the clothing is replaced by something of equal quality. (And agreed: last week's ethical dilemma was lame. The two students should have been directed to work out their differing viewpoints first: could not a compromise have been reached? If that fails, then, barring a specific regulation against "dead animals"---like a health regulation or something---then "First Amendment freedom of expression" rules. Ya don't like it? Then don't look at it. Geez louise!)



Ya know, I'm even more curious about the politics going on behind this show, than the show itself. Was there some kind of editorial pressure put on the creator? Because it seems like her basic POV has been neutered (and not just Grace, though she's emblematic).



GG Please, dear . . . well, "God": don't let it be -syndrome setting in! Out



*Speaking of last week/this week-- cast observations: last week, Kristy Wu from SWUTL (season will not be mentioned), this week: hey, it's Young Hercules! (the stand-up lawyer guy)

[Puff]

I didn't mind last nights epsiode but I hate what they are doing to Grace. She was such a strong character and now she can only do anything with her boyfriend holding her hand...makes me sick. I'm not sure what to make of the new police chief, I suspect she might be ok but we are to believe she is bad.

Edited by: Warduke at: 10/31/04 10:02 am

[Gatito Grande]

*Joan having to make it up as she goes along, seriously begs the question: if Joan believes God is speaking to her, why wouldn't she believe God had done so before? Wouldn't she be curious as to how that worked---maybe research it? For that matter, why the frell wouldn't she ask God if and how God has done this before?



**When Luke switched his obsession from Grace to Glynnis? And then dumped her, reverting to his obsession for Grace? Now that made sense: that's what teenage boys are like. It was just unlike Grace to be attracted to him . . . beyond the purely physical (and, again agreeing w/ Iamyouknow, that kind of attraction should be portrayed as a little bit kinky! ). Oy vey: this is all mixed up. Luke is showing a maturity now, which could have attracted Grace . . . maybe. But he didn't, when she started to become attracted to him. Again I ask, WTF?



Y'know, the more I think about it, the more I see the Long Arm of the Nervous Suits: you had this great, sexually-ambiguous character, Grace. You could have easily made her gay, bi OR straight . . . if she would just bloody well own her sexuality (even if owning meant saying "I am questioning. I am unsure.")



But they (the writers) didn't! They just left it hanging: Ma and Pa Girardi (and God?) could question her gender, Friedman and Luke (and Joan) could question her sexuality, but aside from an all-purpose hostility, in the face of snide remarks, there was never any real response on her part. "Yeah, I am gay: so f*ckin' what?" "No, I'm into girls AND boys, *sshole." "I do like dick, Friedman: exactly why I DON'T like you!" (Um, recognizing she couldn't speak exactly in this language ) Or there's even this: "Everybody at Arcadia High is U-G-L-Y, no alibi ugly! When I meet some actually attractive human beings, then maybe I'll join the Cult of the Genitals. Not until." (The latter is actually a pretty good approximation of GG's high school sexuality )



But, instead of addressing Grace's sexuality in any kind of responsible way (responsible, in the sense of responding to the accusations and inferences of which she was manifestly aware), they just ignored it. First, by having her get inexplicably kissy-face w/ Luke (w/o any kind of context for the attraction), and second, by sublimating it to "I'm the child of an alcoholic, so I put up walls. Boo hoo." This running away from sexuality is not only fundamentally dishonest (in an artistic sense), it teaches a terrible lesson to LGBT or questioning youth: "You don't have to deal w/ your sexuality, even if others are harrassing you for it! Just repress it all, or express it in random---if socially-approved (= not gay)---channels. Or just blame mommy!"

Edited by: Warduke at: 10/31/04 12:10 pm

[urnofosiris]

Please no more mentions of that other show which is off topic, except if it relates to Willow and Tara.



What they are doing to Grace just makes no sense at all. They have put her in the credits and reduced her character to little more than the needy girlfriend, a prop for Luke so he can have an excuse to take up screentime, so he has a secret too and becomes remotely interesting (not to me). It is not just what they have done to Grace that bugs me, but it is the thing that bugs me the most, add it all up and I am not sure how long I will keep on watching.

Edited by: Warduke at: 10/31/04 10:02 am

[tyche]

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What they are doing to Grace just makes no sense at all. They have put her in the credits and reduced her character to little more than the needy girlfriend, a prop for Luke so he can have an excuse to take up screentime, so he has a secret too and becomes remotely interesting (not to me). It is not just what they have done to Grace that bugs me, but it is the thing that bugs me the most, add it all up and I am not sure how long I will keep on watching.

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The ironic thing about this is that we all wanted Grace to be a regular character, and it looks like the producers felt that to make her a regular, they had to water down the character. So it looks the like the 'new Grace' is the price we had to pay for having her as a regular. I am actually glad that they have given Becky a chance to show her range and do something other than make sarcastic comments all the time. (I liked the old sarcastic Grace, it's just that it's difficult to sustain a character as a regular if they're only ever hitting one note. Hence the fact they're trying to develop her somewhat, even if we don't like the way the writers are going about it. Maybe they will eventually find a way to balance out the 'softer' and sarcastic sides of Grace, because nobody is completely one way or the other.) And another ironic thing: had they kept Grace as a recurring character and not tried to develop her in the way that they have, we would probably be complaining that they didn't have any confidence in Becky's acting abilities because they didn't make her a regular and they weren't giving her any chances to show her range.

Also, I have a feeling that the Luke/Grace relationship will not last. So I very much doubt that the dire apocalyptic predictions people are making of Grace wearing pink will come to pass.

Having read the spoilers for the second half of the season, I think it's much too soon to write this show off altogether. And that's all I'm saying...

Pro bono, which I think means,'Sucker Who Doesn't Get Paid' in Latin.

- Veronica Mars

Edited by: tyche at: 11/1/04 12:23 pm

[BBOvenGuy]

Quote:

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Having read the spoilers for the second half of the season, I think it's much too soon to write this show off altogether. And that's all I'm saying...

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Ah yes, I see your point. What I call a "We're not kidding around" moment.



And that's all I'm saying. If you really want to find it, you can. It took me about 15 minutes.

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child

[gspiggott]

I'm not giving up on the show just yet but I do think it's got some real problems. "We're not kidding" , moments don't always add up to good storytelling as we kittens all know too well.

Original Grace was a great character because she was the angry intelligent outsider and her refusal to conform set her apart from the herd. My mother drinks sob Grace is nowhere near that intriguing and the way the show portrays her dealing with it feels very false. It's also unlikely that it would be such a secret to her peers, and that she wouldn't verbalize some of her anger about it to Joan or Adam. The whole Alateen scene seemed more about her calling Luke her boyfriend than dealing with her mother's drinking.

I'm hoping it gets better, but the writing feels a lot sloppier this year.

[BBOvenGuy]

I thought this week's episode was better. Maybe they're getting back on track - and just in time for November sweeps!



Grace seemed to be more like her old self, too. A new relationship makes everyone goofy and out of sorts for a while, so maybe that was it. We did get to see her room this week.

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child

[Kieli]

I thought Luke was being more than a little pushy and self-centered. If he were a bit more mature, he might not have forced himself into Grace's personal space. It became more about Grace seeking his approval in taking control of her life instead of doing it on her own terms. It was arrogant of him and I think he's going to need a smackdown reality check soon.



I miss Grace. This show has joined the ranks of the other "All leads must be paired up with each other so that no one thinks they're gay" shows. Seemed also like they're setting up for Will to have an affair with his boss (I doubt that would go over well but I do believe there might be some clashes between Wil's boss and his wife very soon).



I was definitely doing a moment when Will's wife went on about Kevin's accident being "an act of God". To me, that sounded like a bit of shirking her responsibility. She could never believe that Kevin's accident was avoidable (which it was) and that she could've done something to prevent it (which she probably could have in hindsight...like asked a few more questions before letting Kevin go to the party, reined in his smartass attitude before he got himself into trouble, prepared him to stand up to peer pressure, etc.) Her little passive-aggressive approach to life is sanctimonious and unrealistic. What was that quote my mother used to give me? God helps those who help themselves. I doubt God wanted Helen to make her family a doormat and suffer for her moral peace of mind. Is really that willing to not fight as hard as she could to have their family keep their home and their finances so that they could survive? How stupid IS this woman?



Have to say it: I really really really love the addition of Judith. She's more of a supporting best friend than Grace now (which is very sad...I miss old Grace) and I loved the scene with her and Adam (misconstrued though it was). We got to see why Judith did some of the stupid things to Joan early on...she was testing her loyalty...trying to see if she really would stick by her. Granted, it's a crappy way to do it (and I've been in Joan's shoes on that one...far more than I want to admit to) but Judith is damaged..by her family, by her "friends", by her past in general. I think she's thinking that Joan can help her start fresh and regain control of her life. Gotta love "Joanith".....Sprague SO rocks Can we say Joan/Judith fic anyone?

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[urnofosiris]

What Kieli said. I love Judith and she is the reason why I am still downloading this show.

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I was definitely doing a moment when Will's wife went on about Kevin's accident being "an act of God". To me, that sounded like a bit of shirking her responsibility.

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and Kevin´s and the drunk driver´s as well. That was really a jaw dropping comment coming from her. I actually found it offensive. Her whole attitude is annoying me, by now even Joan is annoying me, so that makes all Girardis. Wonderful.

I noticed the new police chief´s lingering hand touch with Will. I really like this woman, she seems like an honest, strong willed practical leader and if they are in any way going to make her pursue Will, I am bailing out.



I miss the humor, I miss Grace, I miss Glynis, I miss the chem teacher.

[Kieli]

Oh I totally agree...I was offended and I'm not even a Christian!



I have to agree with you on Lt. Preston (Will's boss). If they throw the cliche in there about having her pursue him, I'm done with the whole lot of 'em What did the show's producers do? Hire Drew Greenberg, Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon to give them pointers on how to kill a show? I can see it now "How to Undercut your Fan Base: A Lesson in Career Suicide" or better yet "HackJob 101: Using Cliches to Your Disadvantage"



Still Judith is my bright spot. I love her to pieces. Really need to find a Sprague Grayden official page so I can let her know

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[The Rose24]

Sorry, I really dislike Judith. I am not so sure she is Joan's friend at all.



I agree with everyone else. I miss the Joan and Grace friendship. It seems like they are trying to put Judith in Grace's place. No thanks.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

[Gatito Grande]

I like Sprague Grayden, and I'm coming to like Judith . . . I just hate the reason for Judith: that they were taking Grace away (in just a friendship way, God forbid anything more! ) from Joan.



Was Joan lobotomized over the summer? The Joan I remember from last year, wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed . . . but she knew that, too. Throw in a rather peculiar relationship to the Almighty, and Joan was a pleasantly confused camper.



This year, Joan went from totally disbelieving herself (her sanity, and w/ that, God), to totally believing in her own personal omniscience . . . in about five minutes. And again I ask: if Joan believes in her relationship to God again, and Adam now believes in her relationship to God, why the heck not bring him in on her assignments? (Was Adam's bringing her books on various mystics, like, a forgotten plot point?) To wit: "Adam, the reason I'd like to video you, is that God asked me to video everything around me. And I definitely want you around me. OK?" There, was that so hard?



GG I'd love to pick Becky's brain: find out what happened, what she thinks of the deconstruction of her once utterly unique character. And I miss Glynnis, too. And hottie Ms. Lischak. Sacrificed to the Annie Potts' budget outlay? Out



For that matter, I miss Luke, too: I don't think there's a single character I recognize, except Jerky Will (and the new things they've gained---Judith, Lilly the Ex-Nun---simply don't make up for what they've lost: Joan. Grace. Joan&Grace. )



I've never been any good at quitting a show, but I've seen this happen before: I "accidentally" miss it, then accidentally miss it again, and then, why bother? This could happen by 2005, unless there's a turn-around . . . (Remembering what was: )

[tyche]

I really do NOT like Judith, even though I think the actress who plays her is good. Ironically, I liked her more in the most recent ep than I have before.

I usually find it cringe-worthy when shows do self-referential eps involving video cameras or documentary crews, but JoA carried off the concept really well - in fact, I enjoyed the ep more than any so far this season.

Pro bono, which I think means,'Sucker Who Doesn't Get Paid' in Latin.

- Veronica Mars

[Gatito Grande]

. . . says the unspoiled. I did not see that coming (I was going, in the opening minutes "Just put Sprague Grayden in the opening credits, too, why doncha?")



The thing is, before the stabbing, I was thinking that this is a much better episode than we've seen . . . well, all this year, really.* (I could almost deal w/ Luke/Grace too . . . except for that lame-*ss anarchist-bashing part )



Good-bye Judith: we hardly knew ye (I still don't know what to make of her relationship to Joan. Yeah, she was pushing Adam and Joan closer together . . . but did anyone else get the feeling she was trying to vicariously live through them? And in a way that suggests . . . well, I'll just say that, when the two of them---Joan and Judith---were looking in the mirror together, at Joan's black dress, I thought "Why don't you two just make out already?" )



GG All I can say is, I hope we see more of Joan and Grace together now. I really hope. Out



* I had pointedly decided that, currently, the show wasn't worth taping anymore . . . which pretty much guaranteed the ep would be better!



The voice of Warren Zevon from beyond the grave was an inspired choice to close with.

[The Rose24]

This is the best ep so far this season although I do not dislike some of the earlier eps as much as some of the other kittens on this board. Joan was confused and probably still is, but I think that was/is the point.



I actually started to like Judith better in this ep because I thought she was changing. Now, I can't doubt she really was Joan's friend. I hope Joan and Grace will be the friends they used to be and Luke doesn't come between them more than he already has.



On to other things. I love the date between Joan and Adam. Very romantic

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

[Iamyouknowyours]

Was anyone else yelling "Die already!" at the TV tonight? Nothing against the actress who plays Judith - I love her on Six Feet Under. She had no reason to be there except to mess up the brilliant dinamic of season 1. Judith a part of the family? Please. Adam, yes. Grace, pretty much although she would never want to belong to any identifiable unit if she were the REAL Grace. Judith? No. And when did the writers lose all touch with reality and turn the is into a bad soap like Party Of Five? Have they ever even BEEN to high school? Last season I mistakenly thought they had. Bad girls don't think juggling is cool all of a sudden. There are more types of Anarchists than butch blonds in leather jackets. Teenagers don't go on dates like that except for prom. And yes, most of the viewers are smart enough to know when Gift of the Magi is being frickin' ripped off so blatantly. I don't believe most of the acting anymore because the dialogue is so rediculous. Can someone please let me step in and write a decent episode for these people and fix the crap they are currently giving us? I will buy season one on DVD, but I'm not sure I want to keep watching past that. Man this show jumped the shark fast.

Edited by: Warduke at: 11/12/04 9:42 pm

[Gatito Grande]

Iamyouknow:



"Have they ever even BEEN to high school?"



I assume you mean in the last . . . 5 years? The last 10? Or?



"Bad girls don't think juggling is cool all of a sudden."



Bad girls, probably not. Bad girls trying, in all their frailty, to go Good? Maybe.



"There are more types of Anarchists than butch blonds in leather jackets."



Agreed. (I had a bad feeling almost as soon as I saw Graces'---this year's Grace's---Anarchist pamplet)



"Teenagers don't go on dates like that except for prom."



Hmm: being outside of the "been to High School in the last 10 years" category (won't say how far outside! ), I'd need to take a poll of the young'uns.



One thing that has struck (and even impressed) me: how different Joan and Adam's high school experience seems from mine. The massive amounts of external stress (I thought people didn't get that "I have to work!" burden until their college years!). Seen in that light, a chosen break-out from the stress---"We're going to have a special night together, just because we decided that we need it"---seems plausible to me.



"And yes, most of the viewers are smart enough to know when Gift of the Magi is being frickin' ripped off so blatantly."



I did, but I didn't (I mean, the title "Gift of the Magi" didn't pop into my head until you said it. But I aren't all that smart, so what do I know? ).



"Can someone please let me step in and write a decent episode for these people and fix the crap they are currently giving us?"



GG I'd have felt stronger that way a week or two ago, but how 'bout this: I (unofficially) appoint you Grace-Restorer! Out



Kieli, will you still watch sans Sprague?

Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 11/12/04 10:26 pm

[Kieli]

Quote:

---

Kieli, will you still watch sans Sprague?

---

Good question, one I'm not sure I'm able to answer as I'm so livid I can barely type.



This show didn't just jump the shark, it's riding it straight to hell and back. Methinks someone has been talking to Joss Whedon too much I loved Judith mostly b/c she needed redeeming and it seemed that God was making her Joan's on-going project, to help her save Judith from her own self-destructive tendencies. We've all had friends like that at some point or other. It's how we help them and deal with them that makes a difference in their lives. That's the lesson and I was hoping it was going to be the underlying subtle one (goddess knows, it's the only lesson this season that hasn't gone over like a lead balloon ). Apparently, we're relegated to having Joan whine through the rest of the season, Helen spout off her sanctimonious morality plays and pedantic soul-searching and dealing with this very idiotic lawsuit that could've been wrapped up in two episodes tops. I'm STILL trying to deal with that whole pathetically written Luke/Grace dynamic so...I'm traumatized. Diana will probably still watch it (hell, she'll watch any favourite show to the end no matter how bad it gets...she's into that whole "train wreck" thing) but me...I dunno. I think I'm done. I went through this with Buffy and Xena. Ain't doing it anymore

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[Puff]

I watched. I cried. I was unspoiled so it came as a shock. I really liked Judith. I loved the relationship between her and Joan and she even make me like Freidman. I'll miss her.



Last night was a good episode, it had some wonderful moments and will create a lot of shockwaves for the rest of the season. It's a good show and I'll continue to watch it each week. I liked Adam's line near the end. Oh and I still can't decide what to make of Will's boss.

[BBOvenGuy]

I thought last night's episode was the best one of the year. The first half had the same kind of humor that most of last year's episodes had. The second half - well, I wasn't unspoiled. I knew what was coming, and I thought they did a great job of it. Amber Tamblyn deserves the Emmy nomination she got last year - one of these years, she's going to win it.



But for those of you who didn't like the episode, or haven't liked the season as a whole, and are ready to bail on this show - that's fine. I can understand. Losing any favorite character is always hard. Losing Judith in no way compares to another character loss I could mention, for a multitude of reasons that I won't elaborate on, but it's still tough. And as for the Luke/Grace pairing - well, I don't watch Gilmore Girls because I don't like the Luke/Lorelai pairing, so I can understand that, too.

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child

[Kieli]

I'm in no way comparing the loss of Judith to the Loss Of Tara (that deserves it's own capital letters)...I'm merely commenting on the destructive attitude that creators seem to have for characters they formulate in order to draw viewers in, get them to love said character then stick a knife in them (no pun intended). I, for one, am tired of being played. Granted the episode was excellent but I am not happy about Judith being sacrificed. She was one of the very few reasons I even bothered to continue watching. The season as a whole has done nothing for me. I have no distinct feelings about it...not the way I had for Season One.



I agree that Amber Tamblyn deserves her Emmy nomination (she actually deserved the Emmy itself IMHO). Despite all that, this season has disappointed me beyond the point where I could be discouraged. Aside from the few breakout performances, there's nothing about any of the eps that I could say, I'd rewind again and again or even download like last seasons. You can forgive the pitiful writing this season? Good for you. You're a better man than I (and not just the gender part either ) I won't play the manipulation game. The writers just aren't that good at it.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[urnofosiris]

To me this show did not just jump and ride the shark, it mated with it and produced 200 little baby sharks as well. The actors and especially Amber Tamblyn do superb jobs, I hope they get all the honors they deserve, but it is not enough to keep me watching. This episode was the final straw. I got into this show because it mixed drama with great humor, it was original.



I don´t see it anymore. I guess all those girls looking like Grace was meant to be funny, maybe I would have laughed last season, but it just made me think they robbed her of whatever individuality and originality was left. Judith was nothing more than a prop, something for Adam & Joan and Grace & Luke to bond over, for this circle of friends to come together again. Lovely.



The way they choose to get rid of her did not do much to make me appreciate the writing of this episode either. So she got stabbed multiple times and they operated on her all within the space of her calling Joan and Joan coming home from her date? Someone supposedly so critically wounded that no doctor would look her in the eye was just lying there not intubated? Very convenient as this allowed for some dramatic goodbye scenes.



To add to what Seurat said, that ´choices, good friends, bad friends´ speech from god and Adam saying some people kill themselves one day at a time seriously rubbed me the wrong way, as if she was to blame for getting stabbed. Yes I am sure she asked for it. She should not have been there right? Ugh, nevermind, I got it out of my system now, moving on, nothing left to see.

Edited by: DrG at: 11/13/04 2:43 pm