Carnivale on HBO

[xita]

Yeah, I'd heard is Hunt too. At least we now know that if Mercedes had not been around, someone would have done the voice of the exorcist!



The finale, you know the cliffhangers don't sit well with me since I have to wait over a year to see them conclude.



I'll bet jonesy gets to be the hero and saves Sophie or her mom. Sophie played Libby rotten. It wasn't her fault that Jonesy couldn't keep it in his pants. And she did warn Sophie about him. So I am left wondering how much she cared about Libby which is a shame cause they have way better chemistry than her and jonesy. Maybe Libby will get herself a real gf now someone who isn't so immature.



I love Justin, I don't care if he's the devil himself. I haven't seen him kill anyone (except in self indefense when he was a little boy), on the other hand, pretty boy do gooder Ben has killed twice. I don't like Ben. I am glad Adrienne Barbeu gets to live another day, yay!



Lodz dead? oh yes! And Lila got to redeem herself a little for me by actually sounding oblivious to Ruthie's murder.



Management is using everyone it seems, sure sign of evil

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"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[Warduke]

Almost everyone I've seen posting at various Carnivale boards are all saying the Sofie is evil, which I think is right. I mean come on we have the ultimate proof...she's likes women, if that doesn't prove she's evil, than nothing will



If Sofie was meant to be an evil character all along, then why did they do the Libby angle? Just to prove that since she likes a woman, she must be evil?



If it plays out that way, then we have another example of the cliche



I also bet that Jonesy is the big hero. And why are they even doing this Sofie/Jonesy thing? It's just nasty.



I agree with xita, I like Justin, he's just a fun guy



And about management, it says a lot to me when Lodz called it "my prince"



Also a real nice touch at the end, having the "evil" Sofie being burned alive (I'm sure she'll be ok, but still a nice visual )

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[xita]

Ok, I've been thinking about it so, I am sure everyone's already figured it out but I am slow. So Justin and Iris come from the old country where supposedly a big pow wow according to Samson. It ivolved Lodz and management. So, I am thinking they wanted Justin dead, or maybe it was scudder chasing the kids. Anyway if Ben is what Scudder used to be, than maybe Justin is made from the same type of fabric as management.



And yes TP, I remember Linda Hunt when she played a man, the great thing about that was that it wasn't a part of the movie, she just played a guy. She could very well do it again here. That would be very cool. It was neat to see managment as an actual person who smokes and has hands!



*editing to add why I think Justin is like management. Management threatened to kill Ben right where he was standing, as if he could do it without coming out from behind the curtain. Who do we know who can do that? Justin!

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"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

Edited by: xita  at: 12/1/03 8:55 pm

[BBOvenGuy]

I'm with Brian. I saw the cliche almost instantly. Sofie kisses Libby, then dies. Or appears to. Oh, and she also stops to exact a bit of petty revenge along the way.

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child

[maudmac]

The finale there kinda put a damper on my feelings about how amazingly wonderful the show was. I don't care for that hint of the cliché there at all. Whatever comes of it, there's still the hint. I don't want to hate Carnivàle, but I will if I have to.



And that's possibly influenced my perception of the end of the season, because I really did feel pretty much let down. I wasn't happy with the lack of answers. I like the mythology and I like that it's complex and dense and almost requires you to take notes and draw charts to keep it all straight. I like that it's challenging. But, goddamn, can we please get a few answers?



And, really, it seemed as though, as the episodes progressed, they grew increasingly soapy. How many love triangles are there? Too many, I think. I want to know about the characters and I want to see them tangled in messes of their own making, because that's the way life is. But I thought there was a little too much of that and not quite enough weirdness like the Scary Tattoo Guy or the visions.



I hate like hell to have to wait so long for more. Grrrr.

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i got a dance ain't got no steps  /  i'm gonna let the music move me around

[Warduke]

Read this over at AICN...

Quote:

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Friday morning’s Hollywood Reporter, meanwhile, reports that writer-producer Ron Moore’s other high-profile new series, the HBO sci-fi drama “Carnivale,” has been picked up for a 13-episode second season. Production is set to begin in spring for airing late next year.

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[xita]

ooh that sounds great, so officially picked up and maybe airing in 2004!

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"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[Allaine]

I watched this show faithfully last year. I don't have an exact date, but it's supposed to return in January of 2005 (apparently ending right in time for new episodes of Deadwood to begin).



Personally, I didn't focus too much on the cliche aspect of the final episode re: Sophie and Libby. While I was disappointed (though not entirely surprised, considering how the plot had developed) by the kink in the S/L relationship, I was too focused on Ben's attempts to save my favorite character, Ruthie. The scene in the cemetery . . . and then the last five seconds! When the image of Appolonia's burning trailer faded to black (with no doubt in my mind that Jonesy and Sophie will live), I flipped out because I thought I'd have to wait a whole year to find out whether she was resurrected.



Fortunately, those sneaky bastards slipped that last scene in



Great show. While everyone else waxes poetic about Curb Your Enthusiasm and HBO's other lesser shows, I contentedly watch Carnivale.



Sincerely, Allaine

[maudmac]

Supposedly, the Season One DVD set comes out December 7. I know what I'm getting for Christmas.



Found this at carnivale.org (a fan site). Contains spoilers for S2, so I'm putting it in spoiler code:



Carnivàle's Second Season Premieres in January.



Carnivàle return announced by HBO.



The newsletter foretells the direction of the new season:



In Carnivàle Season Two, we begin the second chapter of our story. Now that the players are positioned, the game is afoot between the forces of Light and Darkness. Ben Hawkins experiences an apocalyptic vision that reveals what's at stake: The fate of the earth.



Ben initiates an uneasy apprenticeship under Management, continuing the search for his father, Henry Scudder, who holds the key to the identity of Ben's nemesis. In order to find him, Ben must confront all the demons of his past. However, Management's ultimate goal in the search is far darker and will claim a far greater price than he could have possibly predicted.



Meanwhile, as Brother Justin's dark power grows, sacrifice and penance is the order of the day, extracted from his followers and supporters a like. Through the arcane teachings of the forbidden Gospel of Matthias, he learns more about his true nature, and the terrible steps he must take to fulfill it, including the key role played by a stranger named Henry Scudder. Brother Justin then begins his own search for Scudder, putting our two principal players on a collision course which culminates in a fatal confrontation.



Oh, also, it's rerunning on HBO2 starting Oct. 9: schedule

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when i hear music it makes me dance

Edited by: maudmac  at: 10/7/04 8:49 pm

[Warduke]

Here's a trailer for the second season of Carnivale.



The new season starts January 9th.

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Firefox: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[xita]

ok , DVDs are almost here! i've decided I want no spoilers! SO exciting!! One month to the new season! Ooooooooooooh yay! yay yay yay yay!!! yay!!!

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"Trust is a risk masquerading as a promise."

[TyRex316]

Wow-just saw the trailer for season 2 and Jan. 9 can't get here fast enough. Forget good vs. evil, maybe this is just evil vs. evil. Also , HBO has another new series Rome coming out soon. LOL-the only place more decadent and corrupt than Deadwood has been shown to be is probably Ancient Rome and HBO is doing a series about it. The only thing cleaner maybe the language.

[maudmac]

First off, I weep with joy that Carnivàle is back.



Now...whoa. Just whoa.



Sooooo deliciously confusing!



I am perplexed now with all this Usher and Prophet stuff. It complicates the fairly-straightforward Child of Light/Child of Darkness stuff, doesn't it? (Which probably wasn't really all that straightforward to begin with, now that I think about it.)



I had been assuming the Tree Tattoo Man was the Usher and that Sofie would be the new one, being (assuming again here) his daughter. But the Gospel of Matthias would suggest that Justin is the Usher. Hmmm.



Perhaps the Usher and/or the Prophet will become the Children of Light/Darkness? Or are we talking about four separate people? We didn't get much last season about all this Usher and Prophet stuff, other than, as far as I recall, those "every prophet in his/her house" visions. I thought it interesting that Sofie had one, as well. It seemed to make it that much more obvious that she's going to play a crucial role in whatever happens.



I am confused about who's whom now. In light of Samson's monologue at the beginning:



On the heels of the skirmish man foolishly called The War to End All Wars, the dark one sought to elude his destiny, and live as a mortal. So he fled across the ocean to the empire called America. But by his mere presence, a cancer corrupted the spirit of the land. People were rendered mute by fools who spoke many words but said nothing... for whom oppression and cowardice were virtues... and freedom, an obscenity.



And into this dark heartland, a prophet stalked his enemy. Until, dimished by his wounds, he turned to the next in the ancient line of light. And so it was that the fate of mankind came to rest on the trembling shoulders of the most reluctant of saviors....



Now, Management said specifically that Scudder had attempted to elude his destiny, so does this suggest that Scudder was/is the CoD? And, if so, that would make the Russian/Management the CoL?



Seems to me that it's logical to assume that one generation's Usher/Prophet/Child of Light/Child of Darkness would beget the next generation's, but I suppose it might not work that way. (It seems that Scudder is Ben's father, the Russian is Justin and Iris' father, and the Tree Tattoo Man is Sofie's father.) In fact, it might work the other way around. One generation's CoL begets the next generation's CoD. Which suggests that Scudder really was his generation's CoD. (It was, after all, his avoidance that fomented WWI, possibly. But, if that's the case, that by avoiding his destiny, these terrible things happened, what was his destiny originally?)



I was creeped out by...many things...but especially Management's directive to Samson to keep Ben away from him/her/it, saying "he tempts me." Tempts you? Tempts you how? To do what?



I am feeling like this ep needs about five more viewings. I am really glad now that I watched all the season 1 eps very recently.



Kinda feel sad for Lila without Lodz now. And poor Mamatose. I can only assume she was trying to do something good in killing Sofie (especially since she knew it meant her own death as well). And that reinforces my sense that Sofie must be the new Usher. (Except for that stuff with the Gospel of Matthias! But...hmmm...that was rather incomplete, wasn't it? I am going to be watching for someone else to say "Thou shalt be strong" or whatever it was.)



Anyone else think Justin did a number on Rev. Pa Walton and put him in that state? And, dude, are we to believe that Justin has been to a prostitute now? I am sure he was just ministering to her. He sure was looking at Iris' legs longingly and she sure was well-aware of his longing. Interesting that she locked her door later. I wonder if she's feeling out of the loop now. I still think there's more to Iris than we know. Something is up with her. She's important.



God. So much stuff happened in this episode. Like, almost too much. Too much information all at once. I am tired. I can't even remember all the things I wanted to talk about.



Loooooove this show!



EDIT: Wait a minute. Now I'm thinking more. Samson's monologue is just full of goodies!



Samson says, "On the heels of the skirmish...the dark one sought to elude his destiny and live as a mortal."



Which means I was wrong about Scudder (or anyone else) causing WWI by avoiding his destiny. That had already happened. Furthermore, Scudder and the Russian both were already mortal, weren't they? At least they had bodies. (Although, especially with Rev. Pa Walton's belief that Justin is possessed by a demon and Justin's assertion that he is not possessed by one, he is one, perhaps it could be said that a sort of Spirit of Light or Spirit of Darkness will come to inhabit an already-born mortal body.)



If we are to assume that "the dark one" is the CoD, that would suggest that it's neither Scudder nor the Russian, right?



Samson again - "...his mere presence...corrupted the spirit of the land. People were rendered mute by fools who spoke many words but said nothing... for whom oppression and cowardice were virtues... and freedom, an obscenity."



Is he talking about fascism or what? I am thinking of things like the eugenics movement in the US around that time. It's a dark stain on US history, how very much happened here that's downright...Hitleresque. (I would argue, actually, that US history is covered with dark stains from its very inception, so it didn't really need any corrupting as it has never, ever been quite the utopia many think. *reminds self we are talking about a TV show here*)



So...what exactly is Samson talking about? Who were the "fools who spoke many words but said nothing... for whom oppression and cowardice were virtues... and freedom, an obscenity"?



Samson also says, "And into this dark heartland, a prophet stalked his enemy. Until, dimished by his wounds, he turned to the next in the ancient line of light."



So...the prophet was diminished by his wounds...wouldn't this be the Russian? And the Russian, as Management, has now turned to Ben, who we assume is the CoL (or somehow otherwise "the next in the ancient line of light"). So Scudder would be his (the prophet's) enemy. If the Russian is "the prophet" and Scudder is "the dark one" that means there was a Prophet and a Child of Darkness, so who, then, were the Usher and the Child of Light? Again, I'm back to the question of whether we're talking about two, three, or four people with all the Usher/Prophet/CoL/CoD stuff.



Fascinating.

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make some room now dig what you see

Edited by: maudmac  at: 1/9/05 9:56 pm

[xita]

Oh, yes it's back. Wow. First of the face peeling at the end was awesome!



I loved the way they just started with some answers, though of course they are more confusing. Scutter, good, bad? The answer would seem to be that he is bad, if you believe management, which at this point I do. Either way, he's a wanted man. And that does make sense, the russian was always following scutter, trying to kill him. I don't know. I am glad we know who management is. I am still confused about the tree guy.



And the bomb, well that was not at all where I thought this might be going, but if I believe mangament, well then Ben loses. The bomb gets made, it gets used . Of course they could be talking about complete destruction but eh, it's not a full victory then either.



Libby, , I'll be your gf, you don't need that bitch, she's evil I know it! Momma was just trying to kill her, too bad she failed.

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"Trust is a risk masquerading as a promise."

[maudmac]

Hee, you take Libby, I'll take Rita Sue. That right there is a mighty and mighty fine woman, I'll tell you what.

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make some room now dig what you see

[Hemiola]

Not much I can add to the thorough analysis of maudmac.



Something I did want to mention, though: regardless of who "he" is supposed to be, the voice of Management definitely sounds like a female voice! I don't know if this has any significance, but it's worth pointing out.



Clearly the "good/evil" conflict is going to be worked out over this season--I can hardly wait for the next episode.

[Warduke]

Holley did a great job with her thoughts on it so I don't have anything to add. So I'll just say I'm glad it's back and look forward to the next episode.

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Firefox: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[xita]

I was pretty sure that last year the voice of management was Linda Hunt. This year the voice changed and it is more male. I am not sure if we're supposed to ignore that or if that's on purpose.

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"Trust is a risk masquerading as a promise."

[Culzean]

Was it my imagination, or did Sophie's eyes turn black after her mother died?



As much as I enjoyed this episode, I was even more intrigued by the trailer for next week.



If you didn't see the trailer, stop reading now.







In this episode, Management tells Samson to keep Ben out of his trailer because Ben tempts him. In the coming attraction for next week, we hear Management saying Ben will never be ready in time. Then we see Ben in Management's trailer saying, "Let me heal you."



I wonder if that was the temptation. If Management wants to be healed and get back in the fight, but isn't supposed to.

[xita]

That's exactly what a coworker pointed out to me. I missed that entire "heal you" thing in the trailer. That has to be the temptation, it makes perfect sense. What will be the consequences of that.



Finally saw Sunday's episode. Stupid Golden Globes. Anyway, I am more confused.



Justin is the usher? He's not ready yet though right, he'll be the usher when he meets with Scudder? That was horrible with scudder and the snake, nasty! Is scudder the prophet then?



Poor Libby. I will go on and on about her the whole season. Rita Sue thinks she's all missing her friend, it's like NO, she has a broken heart .



Not sure what is up with Sophie this year so far.



Management, why doesn't he want to be healed? Will it corrupt his goodness? Look at Ruthie, something is wrong with her, she's seeing dead people. Maybe she's still kinda dead anyway.

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"Trust is a risk masquerading as a promise."

Edited by: xita  at: 1/19/05 7:21 pm

[Culzean]

Justin won't be the Usher until he kills Scudder with his own hands.



I'm not sure if that's because Scudder is the current Usher (which would mean he's also the Tattoo Man, and Sophie's father) and Justin has to kill him to take his place. Or, if it's because Scudder is the good prophet and he has to be taken out before a new Usher can take power.



Looks like Iris is hip to the fact that her little bro is going to sell her out. Somehow, I don't think she'll take that lying down. My bet is she'll try to frame someone else.



That was so wierd when we saw Shopie's shadow as she walked, with her mother's shadow following her. That was a great shot!



And I do wonder what's up with Ruthi seeing dead people?

[werewolf123]

You might want to check out "Nehemiah Scudder" , from Robert Heinlein"s "If this goes on". Scudder was also known as the "prophet" . I have a feeling that they are connected. I painted up a Scudder in 84 pin , a long time ago.

[xita]

Oh, today's episode of sicknavale was interesting.



Justin was drawing pussies wasn't he? tsk tsk. He sure has interesting way to pray. Sick sick.



The coooch show for pre-teens. Sick sick.



That family that almost killed Ben. Sick sick. The dolls, the whipping. Gross.



Really everything else kinda, just too much.



Sophie is turning into quite the dyke with the pants she wears. Still, she's got some connection with Justin too. She's meant to hear that radio show. Why?



And Libby and Jonesy? NOOOO. I assume that's a getting back at Sophie thing. Still, yuck.



Why does poppa cooch owe money to that guy? Just more questions. Next week looks really interesting.



Holley, yes i forgot about the pimping of the little girl. Sick, sick.



And I think Ruthie seeing Lodz was just more of that , "she sees dead people" thing. Not only is she seeing dead people but she's attracting death as well.

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"Trust is a risk masquerading as a promise."

Edited by: xita  at: 1/23/05 10:02 pm

[maudmac]

Didn't have much to say about last week's episode. I thought it was kind of boring.



This one, though. I intensely disliked being jerked back and forth between those teeny one-minute-long scenes, but perhaps it was a deliberate attempt to make the viewer feel queasy. Some of those scenes made my stomach all flippy-floppy. The old man pimping out the retarded girl? That's the most abominable thing I think I can imagine. His sales pitch was beyond horrifying. I don't care how old and fucked up and hungry you are, you just don't do shit like that. But it seems like Ben did...something...to him when he grabbed him. Because the man's "I'm sorry" seemed so sincere, as though he'd suddenly seen how wrong he'd been and was truly contrite.



I felt a repulsive sexual undercurrent in this whole episode.



Interesting doodling there, Justin. Quite the perv now, aren't you? Making Rev. Pa Walton watch? Gross.



Interesting that the eyeballs Justin drew reappear later when Ben is looking for the Crone. I am wondering if the vulvas will show up in a future episode. Iris seemed slightly disgusted, but not all that surprised, really.



What was the point of GhostLodz leading Ruthie into Sophie's trailer? So Ruthie could cover her up with the blanket? I really didn't understand that bit.



All that stuff with Sophie's Tarot deck...it makes me wonder if Mamatose isn't still around in some way, especially since she was right there behind Sophie walking down the road in the last ep. What else could make the cards fly around like they did in this ep? Unless...it never was Mamatose in the first place doing that... Hmmm. I wonder why Sophie is so convinced she has no powers, since it seems to me that if she could communicate telepathically with her mother, then both of them had the same power. And remember last season, I think it was the very last ep, Sophie herself saw one woman's future - the woman with the daughter who died, Sophie saw a vision of the girl's body in the woman's lap. So, probably, Sophie is just in denial about her own abilities?



The Passeur card clearly links Justin and Sophie. But how, exactly? And why? And now she's got Justin's sermons in her ears? Not good, not good. I am intrigued by where this will go, the whole Justin/Sophie thing.



I'm still unclear on who/what the Prophet is and how that figure relates to the Usher.



Won't whichever one of them, the CoL or the CoD, that kills the other become the Usher? Did I dream that or just speculate it? So if Justin kills Ben, Justin becomes the Usher; if Ben kills Justin, it's Ben who will be the Usher. Where did I get that idea?



Those horrible people in the woods...bleh. They made my skin crawl and I was very afraid of what they were going to do next. So I was genuinely surprised to see their reaction to Scudder's watch fob or whatever that thing is. I can't wait to find out what the Crone has to say to Ben.



I think I'm forgetting stuff... Oh well, I'll remember if it's important.

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don't make me come up there - satan

[Culzean]

Just caught up with the latest episode of Carnivale. That was an icky one.



When Ben was getting chased through the woods I really expected the guys chasing him to have tree tattoos. Wasn't there a painting somewhere of a chase in the woods, or a cornfield, involving one or more tattoo guy? Those folks reminded me of that horrible inbred family from X-Files.



Regarding the Usher - that scholar fellow who brought the Book of Mathias to Justin said that Justin had to kill Henry Scudder with his own hands in order to become the Usher.



If I remember correctly, Management told Ben that Justin was Ben's nemesis, just as Scudder was Management's nemesis. Management also told Ben that he had to find Scudder and bring him to Management.



I wonder if Management wants to kill Scudder, or keep Justin from finding him so that Justin cannot become the Usher?



The only thing that is clear, is that everyone is after Scudder.



And after seeing the trailers for next week, I'm worried about Samson. It seems Lila's out to stir up trouble. I hope nothing happens to Samson, I do like that character.

[maudmac]

D'oh! You're right, Culzean. Thanks for correcting me. I think I had a stroke when I wrote my above post. Justin (current CoD) has to kill Scudder (previous CoD) to become the Usher. Right? So...it follows, doesn't it, that Ben would become the Usher if he killed Management? Why doesn't Management just have Ben kill him, then? Is it because Ben's not ready yet for the big battle? What advantage does the Usher have, anyway?



If a CoD or a CoL becomes the Usher, then what/who exactly is the Tree Tattoo Guy? Does he exist only in dreams/visions, as an archetype or something?



Help me understand!



Ah, yes, I did notice Lila doing some shit-stirring there in the preview. It reminds me of Samson stressing to Ben that if anyone were going to "take a number" (I think he said) for Lodz' death/disappearance, it would be him (Samson himself). Considering Lila's relationship with Lodz and the fact that it's obvious Samson has been uninterested in looking for Lodz, I wonder if that was some foreshadowing. I would hate for anything to happen to Samson. I like him a lot.

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don't make me come up there - satan

[xita]

Oh yes Culzean, what was the name of that family from the x-files? The peacocks? That's exactly what they were like.

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"Trust is a risk masquerading as a promise."

[Culzean]

"Help me understand!"



Damn, Maudmac, I wish I could. I'm with you on one of your earlier posts - I have no idea if we're talking about two or four people with all the prophets, ushers, CoL's and CoD's. I do think the tattoo guy is real since he seems to be the father of Sophie, but who knows?



I did like your point that the good guy in one generation may father the bad guy of the next. Of course, as good as that observation is, it just leaves me more confused. But in a good way!



As for the name of that family from X-Files, I try not to think about them too often. They really creeped me out.

[maudmac]

Alright, so...



Hmmm.



I am really glad they didn't show us the terrible, wonderful things Justin was doing to Celeste up there. I thought I was going to vomit just from having to listen to it. Those were bite marks, weren't they? Bleh.



Iris is really very nonchalant about all this stuff he does, isn't she? She barely blinked. And, I'm assuming, she promptly went out and secured another girl for Justin. Then again, she is the one who burned down the orphanage, so she's hardly in a position to be judgmental. Anyway, about Iris, anyone else get the feeling when she was talking about protecting Justin that she's got some secret supernatural thing she can pull out of her sleeve under certain circumstances? Or that her official role is Protector of The _________ (whatever Justin actually is)?



I noticed that Justin's sermon was really heading into Coughlin territory. The character is supposed to be based on the real Father Charles Coughlin (aka The Radio Priest) and if you read up on Coughlin, the parallels should be obvious. (You can read more about Coughlin here and here and here. That last link, at the bottom are some quotes from Coughlin. You'll see that some of what Justin has said on the show could've been lifted straight from the text of Coughlin's speeches.)



Ben's family is messed up, yo. Whew. I hope we won't be seeing them again. I've seen enough of them to last a lifetime, thanks. I didn't realize when that one cousin came down the stairs that Grandma had sewn his mouth closed. I thought she'd just smacked him or something and his lips were bleeding. Well, I can't summon any sympathy for him, so I don't care.



But it is interesting that Grandma seems to know about things that happen some distance away. She can obviously see. And, I'd have to assume that she was aware of who/what little baby Henry was. Hence the killing and eye-clawing. I don't quite get why, exactly, she would have done that, but it does suggest she understood that something about the baby was terribly important and it required that action.



If the CoL/CoD thing is passed down in families, but alternates from generation to generation (big if and just my little pet theory anyway), that would make one of Henry Scudder's parents the CoL. So either Grandpa Ku Klux Klan or Grandma Family-Killer. I haven't seen anything in the show that would seem to preclude a female from being anything - CoL, CoD, Prophet, or Usher. It just happens that what we've seen so far seems to be only men. Seems like Grandpa Klan, being around important historic events, would be a better candidate for Child of Something. And I don't think there'd be much doubt about whether he leaned toward the Light or the Dark. If...if...Grandpa Klan was the CoD, that would make Henry Scudder the CoL (which contradicts what Management has suggested), and Ben the CoD (which contradicts what we've seen of him and, especially, what we've seen of Justin). I think my theory perhaps needs work.



Also, assuming Justin is the CoD, remember in S1 when Iris, as a child, said that their father was a bad man (or a very bad man, she might've said). That reminds me, I wish they'd give us more information about that train wreck and who those people were who were after the children. But I digress... I had assumed some time ago that it was possible, with Iris and Justin being Russian, that the Russian soldier (Belyakov, Management) was their father. The point is, though, that I now question my whole theory about alternating CoL/CoD generations within a family, because if Belyakov is Iris and Justin's father, how can he be a "very bad man" and the CoL at the same time?



So here's a thought - Belyakov/Management is actually the CoD. After all, I'm basing the belief that Scudder was the CoD and Belyakov was the CoL entirely on what Management told Ben. It's not so far-fetched that he would lie to Ben and that it was Belyakov himself who was "the dark one who sought to elude his destiny." If this is the case, it makes everything Management has ever said or done suspect. With his current influence on Ben, it creates a dangerous situation. Soooo interesting!



Anyway, isn't it also possible that, since Grandpa Klan was in bed with eeeevil, how 'bout if Grandma was the CoL and it's just happenstance that Ben's grandfather was a Bad Man? Grandma's got Powers, obviously. So the CoL line would be Grandma => Scudder => Ben. CoD line would be Belyakov => Justin.



Here Lies Holley's Theory. RIP, little theory. You will be missed.



Seems to me, too, that there must always be other factors in play, no matter who is what. Hence the obvious importance of Sophie. GhostMamatose is stalking her now. And GhostMamatose is a ghost because she tried to kill her daughter. So Sophie is clearly crucial in some way. And Lodz and Mamatose obviously shared some knowledge about this stuff and it seemed that Lodz was aware of something about Sophie that we don't know. Makes sense if Tree Tattoo Man is indeed Sophie's father.



I also can't help but believe that there's something more to Iris and her role than just random sibling/bystander. It's almost as though she and Justin are partners, but he doesn't seem to think of it that way. Not anymore at least.



Perhaps each CoL and CoD has a sort of consort or a group around them who support or oppose them? It seems obvious to me that there are always people around them who know something of what's going on and what's going to happen and take action depending on their perspective. Talking about Mamatose, Lodz, Iris, Ben's grandma, etc.



Oh, whatever. I'm just thinking aloud. Hee, I don't know what the fuck is going on.



I really, really, really wanted Rita Sue to be able to shoot that roustie asshole. I was so disappointed when it turned out to be Stumpy at the foot of the bed. Anyone else afraid of what Stumpy's gonna do when that guy he owes comes back to collect?



I'm anxious to see Sophie finally read Ben's cards, if she does. I'm assuming surely she will. She can not get away from those cards, can she? It's got to happen. Hopefully soon. It's been fun to speculate about whichever card pops up, but it's kind of exhausting, too, and I just want her to go on and read the damn cards already.



I missed most of the preview for next week, so I don't have anything to say about that. [rant] And I'm avoiding the official HBO site, because someone over there either has no clue what they're doing or they like to slip spoilers in where you wouldn't expect to find them. I made the mistake of going over there to see whether it's Sophie or Sofie - I think it's actually Sofie - and I poked around a bit and stumbled upon something I didn't want to know and that was just right there all out in the open. Grrrrr. And I am committed to remaining spoiler-free for this show (beyond what the previews show). I don't even like the way the synopsis on my TiVo sometimes tells me more than I wanted to know. (For instance, until this most recent episode, we didn't know what, if any, relationship the Crone and Ben had. But there was the synopsis saying something like "Ben goes to see his relative" blah blah. I didn't want to know! I could've guessed, but I didn't want it confirmed. Bleh.) Anyway, the HBO site has some bits here and there that confirm things that have only been speculated about thus far, so I am not going over there to look for the preview for next week's ep. [/rant]

---

don't make me come up there - satan

[Culzean]

I watched last Sundays Carnivale this morning.



Maudmac - I had forgotten that Iris had said their father was a bad man. I wonder if he tried to kill them? I wonder if he tried in a really big way, that resulted in a train wreck? He could have tried to kill them because he's good, and realized that they are evil, or vice versa.



Sofie's mom tried to kill her in a rather dramatic fashion, after coming to some type of realization about her daughter (which she shared with Lodz). Maybe Sofie's the CoD or CoL?



Ok, here's one off the top of my head - maybe the Tattoo Man is Scudder, and Sofie and Ben are siblings. And they're to be paired off against Justin and Iris.



Of course, Justin and Iris are about to come to an impasse, while Ben and Sofie are getting closer. Still, I think there's some kind of parallel here.



I'm not sure if Iris has any type of power, but it seems she has always considered Justin to be very, very important and placed herself in the role of protector. But then, she did say she had to burn down the orphanage, it was important to Justin and his path.



So, maybe Iris can see somewhat into the future. Like Sofie when she reads the cards. Hmmm.....



Management wanted Lodz to arrange Ruthie's murder. I'm wondering if his only motive was to manipulate Ben into killing Lodz in order to save someone he was close to. Or, I wonder if Management also wanted Ruthie to be brought back from the dead so that she could communicate with GhostMamatose?



RE: Ben's family - ewwww! I, too, hope we have seen the last of them. No, that's not true. I do think it would be amusing if Stroud, the guy Justin sent to look for Scudder, were to follow Ben's tracks to his cousin's place.



Did you notice Grandma never actually said that Scudder was dead? She said "I thought you knew." Interesting that she wanted to kill Ben but couldn't.



Re: the trailers - I don't remember the whole thing, but:

* Iris is pleading with Justin (to not allow something to happen to her?) and he says "It's the only way."

* Ruthie tells Sofie she can see Sofie's mom. Sofie asks Ruthie what does she want? Why is she there?

* Samson tells Ben something like, if Ben "goes down that road, it's a one-way trip."

* Ben is in some kind of artists studio, asking a man if he made a death mask of Henry Scudder.



I just hope this season doesn't end on another cliff-hander. I HATE cliffhangers.