Carnivale on HBO

[xita]

I've been behind on this who. But whoa... that's all I'll say before I watch it again. Finally something really happened but I am not sure what difference it made.

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"São só dois lados da mesma viagem.

O trem que chega é o mesmo trem da partida."

Encontros e Despedidas - Maria Rita

[Culzean]

Yeah, this one really made up for a couple of so-so episodes. I'm not even sure what to say about it yet.



After the first scene I was chuckling, thinking that Iris really does have Justin by the balls.



That was pretty much it for the laughing.



I couldn't belive Ben finally found Scudder. I was sure it was going to be another dead end.



And that last bit with Management attacking Scudder, that was just unreal.



I think I'll have to watch this one again too. Hopefully I can get through a whole episode of something without the power going out (it's raining here is S. CA, so the availability of electricity is a bit up in the air).

[TyRex316]

....Management now? Wow, Ben finds his father and kills Management all in one day. I can't believe HS poured acid all over his face just to test Ben. And I think he wanted to see how far Ben would go too, cause it was obvious to heal scars like that, Ben would have to drain a lot of people. But back to my question, when Ben supposedly killed Management all the power went out but when management grabbed him by the throat all of the power came back on. So, was this a last spark or was he passing on his power and ownership to Ben?

[Culzean]

Good question. I hadn't thought about him transferring his power to Ben. I'm not sure how he would feel about Ben, now that he knows Ben's enemy is his own son.



The only thing going through my mind at that point was Scudder saying that Management would be extremely dangerous until he drew his last breath.



I'm still wondering what the heck the blue blood was all about.

[xita]

Show is picking up speed! Wow! Awesome. The beginning was good, I didn't really anticipate that management had done all that on purpose. It makes perfect sense. Jonesey and Libby are just a train wreck. I have to say the last moment of the evening was definitely

- - - - - - - - - - -
"São só dois lados da mesma viagem.

O trem que chega é o mesmo trem da partida."

Encontros e Despedidas - Maria Rita

[TyRex316]

Wow... now Ben is not only more powerful but also has all of Management's knowledge as well. I wonder if Justin's helper had anything to do with the ferris wheel malfunctioning. Jonesy and Libby married!?! Geez-just seems like they're both just doing the one thing that will hurt the person they really love. Sophie ends up working for Justin....I don't even want to think about where that is going to go.

[Culzean]

From the intro delivered by Samson in the first episode of the second season (thanks Maudmac!):



On the heels of the skirmish man foolishly called The War to End All Wars, the dark one sought to elude his destiny, and live as a mortal. So he fled across the ocean to the empire called America. But by his mere presence, a cancer corrupted the spirit of the land. People were rendered mute by fools who spoke many words but said nothing... for whom oppression and cowardice were virtues... and freedom, an obscenity.



And into this dark heartland, a prophet stalked his enemy. Until, diminished by his wounds, he turned to the next in the ancient line of light. And so it was that the fate of mankind came to rest on the trembling shoulders of the most reluctant of saviors[/i]



OK, so:



The Dark One (and current Usher?) = Scudder

The Prophet = Management

Child of Light/Prince = Ben

Child of Dark (Usher in waiting) = Justin

Sofie = ????





Sofie appears to be a prophet who's made it to her house. But, what a house! That was a shocker. I wonder if Mamatose followed her.



I'm going to guess that Justin will kill Scudder and then become the Usher. Then he and Ben can have at it. Fortunately, Ben is properly armed.



Poor Jonsey and Libby. I think they both just want to be in love. But, as you said Xita, this is a major train wreck.



I loved Ruthie in this one. Especially when she was telling Samson about seeing ghosts and marveling that they actually have cars.



I was surprised that Samson was so distraught over Management's death. He had said himself that Management could be cold-hearted and played everyone like chess pieces. I did enjoy watching Samson pull out a bigger blade when threatened.



A very good episode. I wonder how many are left this season?

[TyRex316]

Jonesy getting tarred and feathered was sickening to watch. Always seen something like as some college prank, honestly never imagined anyone could do it to someone else with HOT tar. Thank goodness Ben came along, but Ben's secret is getting to far out in the open, now Jonesy and Libby know as well. Katerina....burns down a house full of kids and beats an old woman to death with an oar, yet she's not on Justin's side for the life of me i can't tell where the writer's are going with her. But more and more it seems like she may be joining Ben's side while Sofie maybe going over to Justins. I mean what was that "Sofie is the omega" thing all about?And did anyone else notice Ben's nosebleed, his blood is blue now as well.



Edited to add:I've been thinking about something else as well. Are Ben and Sofie half-brother and sister? Now, we know Henry Scudder is the Usher and the Usher(the tattooed man) raped her mother. If so, would that mean that Sofie herself could be the next Usher. Cause if Justin can't bring himself to kill Henry, I can honestly see Sofie being able to kill the man who raped her mother. I'm really wondering if that's where the writer's are taking this.

Edited by: TyRex316 at: 3/8/05 1:59 pm

[werewolf123]

Omega , last letter of the greek alphabet. Used as in i am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all things. Omega is also used to symbolize resistence , sophia going undercover as it were? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

[Culzean]

I'm not sure how to interpret one of the scenes in this episode. When Justin is holding Sofie's hand, and won't let go, there is this tense music building in the background and Justin seems to be expecting a specific reaction. Then Sofie just asks if he needs anything else and goes on her way, leaving Justin looking a bit startled.



I'm not sure if he thought he could impress her with his worldly powers and masculine charms, or if he was trying to influence her using one of his psychic gifts. Sofie resisted Justin, but I'm not sure exactly what she resisted.



I'm also unsure how to interpret Iris's conversation with Norman. I'm not sure if she was honestly trying to create an alliance against Justin, or if she was lying to him to keep him quiet. I tend to think she was lying. If she wanted allies, she could have tried starting something with Eleanor, rather than kill her.



I fast-forwarded through the whole tar & feather scene. That was just too gruesome. I'm not sure how they're going to explain Jonsey's leg to everyone else. Unless he just keeps wearing the brace when he's at the Carnivale.



Only three episodes left!

[maudmac]

Ah, I am confused about many things. And that's why I keep watching. Lord knows it ain't to see Jonesy spit or to watch the grime accumulate on Ben's face. Well, now, getting to watch Rita Sue define the term "voluptuous" is a nice reward. But I digress.



I wanted to say...who was the last Usher? I thought it was Scary Tree Tattoo Guy. Hmmm. He bled blue. Managment/Belyakov bled blue. (Sofie bled blue in a dream/vision.) And now we know that Ben bleeds blue. What's the link there? Justin will bleed blue once he kills Scudder, right? Okay...so, does Scudder bleed blue? If so, then why did the Tree Tattoo Guy bleed blue?



Who are all these people?!?



I agree, when Justin was holding Sofie's hand, I got the impression he was expecting something that didn't happen. I wonder why nothing happened, though. I would think, even if Sofie can resist his powers, that still she might get something from him, maybe. A vision or something.



So, Sofie is the Omega. Okay. Thanks, Lodz. And just what, exactly, does "the Omega" do? Care to tell us?



Iris baffles me. I was expecting her to smother Rev. Pa Walton in that scene. Instead she talks about waiting for the right time to expose Justin's evilness? Huh? Which makes me wonder, why not kill him (Rev. Pa Walton)? Especially now that he's obviously a physical threat. Why keep him in Justin's thrall? Is it just to torture him? So Justin can get his jollies doing telekinetic dentistry? Or is he being kept for some purpose down the road?



Three more episodes...until what? The end of this season or the end of the series? As far as I can tell, there's still no word one way or another regarding a third season.



Are we ever going to find out how Ben came to be on that chain gang? Charged with murder? Or convicted, possibly. I've assumed it was because he used his powers somewhere along the line before he understood them and someone died. But, if that's true, then why would he have to be taught that? He ought to know already, right?



Are we ever going to find out what really happened in the mine in Babylon? (Still freaked out about poor Dora Mae!)



What was up with all that Templar stuff, yo? Anything to that?



Are we ever going to find out what happened on that train and who was after little Irina and Alexei? And why?



Are we ever going to get to see how it all came together? How we got from a WWI trench to the dust bowl? Or, hell, how we got to that WWI trench to begin with?



Better be a third season is all I'm sayin'.

---

don't make me come up there - satan

[xita]

Ok, I loved the episode. I couldn't believe that , this is what was really meant by tarred and feathered. Wow. Wow. You know jonesy and libby were starting to be the wreck I predicted but after going through that together, I almost happy they have each other.



Why is lila so into ruthie? She knows lodz is with her? hmm... she's right.



Ok, now back to Iris. I believe her. I think she knows that what is at stake is way bigger than a few people getting killed. Besides it makes sense, sofie is the omega and I believe she's evil. She's going to find her true nature with justin. That makes sense in the way that iris is her opposite whatever that might be. They both are trusted by the other side.



Oh the knights templar and the illuminati and all that stuff? Aren't they supposedly descendants of Jesus? I keep thinking of that when I remember the shroud management left behind and the fact that they bleed blue. It would make sense then that they're all children of the previous generation ushers, etc. They have that bloodline, hence the blue.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"São só dois lados da mesma viagem.

O trem que chega é o mesmo trem da partida."

Encontros e Despedidas - Maria Rita

[werewolf123]

Does anyone know enough denistry to say if the tooth the rev.lost was an eye(I) tooth? Also known as a canine or dog tooth?

[xita]

whoa, there was so much going on. I commented on lila last episode but even so I was surprised at that scene at the beginning. I don't like that those 2 have access to each other again.

I didn't think scudder could be so vicious. I should have known and did he make a deal with the devil? Hmmm... I was way surprised to see Justin in the back seat. I looooved the technical stuff in that entire sequence. The colors, the movement, really made everything even more shocking.

I am surprised iris gave herself so easily away and oh my god I almost forgot, sofie is his daughter!! He's been the tree guy all along, why didn't I think of that! He's old enough. Shit, I was like . Even so, I think that's the neat thing that Iris still has over him. Maybe sofie is necessary in killing Justin. Who knows!

- - - - - - - - - - -
"São só dois lados da mesma viagem.

O trem que chega é o mesmo trem da partida."

Encontros e Despedidas - Maria Rita

[Culzean]

I think Scudder is "the child of darkness" and has been trying in vain to escape his fate most of his life. But, everywhere he went, death and destruction followed. When he attacked Smith we saw the part of himself he's been trying to suppress.



Clearly he could have put up a greater fight against Management when he was attacked. Instead, he just played his part, helping his son to become the "child of light" so that he could fight Justin.



Smith did say that it would be best if Justin could take Scudder by surprise. I don't know who was more surprised, me or Scudder. I wonder if we're going to hear more about that manuscript Smith was after?



And Iris, Iris, Iris.... When she touched Sofie and "saw" Justin attacking Sofie's mom, was that a memory or a vision? Since Iris apparently walked in on the act, it could have been a memory triggered by the talk of Gypsies. Or, does Sofie have some type of psychic sight? If so, that would explain how she's always known Justin was different and had a destiny, and what she could do to help that destiny along.



If Iris really is an agent of good, she has a heck of a way of going about it, what with all that killing. On the other hand, Management was apparently the good guy, and he also thought nothing of lying, manipulating and killing. As though the end justified the means.



Now I'm wondering if we're actually going to have a face-off between Ben and Justin, or if they'll come nose to nose and that will be last scene for this season.



Such sweet agony!

[Willowlicious]

Quote:

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He's been the tree guy all along, why didn't I think of that!

---

I finally started re-watching the first season on DVD. I think the commentaries are enlightening, because there is just so much going on. But, anyway, after watching the latest episode, I slow-moed one of the dream sequences from the very first episode and sure enough, I could tell that the tree guy was indeed Justin. He just looks completely different with the long hair, plus it's such a quick shot. Anyway, I couldn't believe I'd never bothered to go back and look at those sequences in slow-mo before. Duh! Of course, it's all still confusing, so I doubt it would've helped much.



I hope this isn't the last season.

[maudmac]

Some thoughts...



So, okay, in Ben's visions/dreams from the first season, are we to believe that Justin was/is the Scary Tree Tattoo Guy in them? Has that always been Justin? What prompted Justin to get that tattoo anyway? Was it something from the Gospel of Matthias?



I am thinking that Sofie is "the Omega" because, if she is pregnant now with Ben's baby and since Justin is her father, both lines - Light and Darkness - come together in her child. And that would end it all. Perhaps?



I still want to know what role people like Lodz and Mamatose play, have played, or will play in all this.



I was thinking...it's, what, 1936 now? '37? About a year has passed since the events of the beginning of season one. Which means they're still a good 7 or 8 years away from the Trinity test. I dug up Samson's monologue from season one:



Before the beginning, after the great war between heaven and hell, God created the earth and gave dominion over it to the crafty ape he called man. And to each generation was born a creature of light and a creature of darkness, and great armies clashed by night in the ancient war between good and evil. There was magic then, nobility, and unimaginable cruelty. And so it was until the day that a false sun exploded over Trinity, and man forever traded away wonder for reason.



So...hmmm. Assuming the "...until the day that a false sun exploded over Trinity..." part does reference the Trinity test (it would seem to, considering Ben's vision of the explosion and mushroom cloud), that would actually be "a false sun over the Jornada del Muerto desert near Alamogordo, New Mexico." The test itself was named "Trinity." Ah, I know I'm picking nits, probably, but...well, I like to pick pointless nits. Anyway, though, my point is that Trinity was in '45, so...what happens between now and then?



I had assumed something along the lines of - well, obviously Darkness wins because we know they tested that big ass bomb, that Shatterer-of-Worlds bomb, which is, of course, eeeeeevil. On the other hand, you could argue that developing weapons on that scale has served as a deterrent and kept the scale of war much smaller since then. Sort of like the way you could argue that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually saved lives in the long run, because it made the big bad war stop. (How despicable war is, that it can make the most abominable acts somewhat justifiable.) Therefore, perhaps Light could win and we'd still get The Bomb.



Returning from that little detour...is the Trinity test even all that important or is it maybe just symbolic? Is it a bit simple-minded to assume the story must go right up to the morning of the Trinity test? Then again, isn't that pretty much what Samson says in his monologue? "There was magic then, nobility, and unimaginable cruelty. And so it was until the day that a false sun exploded over Trinity..." Literally, until that very day? Or more like "until around the time..."?



Oh well. I guess we'll either find out or we won't.



Hard to believe this season is almost over. Bleh.

---

don't make me come up there - satan

[Culzean]

I was wondering why no one had written any comments on the penultimate episode of Carnivale. Then I watched it this morning.



As much as I enjoy this series, I do wish they could strike a balance between too much happening in an episode and too little.



I guess all the game pieces are in place now, waiting for the big flash-bang next week.

[xita]

This episode just built the tension. I didn't want rita sue to turn against the carnival. I was glad they all seemed to join in at the end. I just don't know where you can go with this if there is a third season. I was happy with the way that Iris is being a pain in justin's ass. And she seems to know a way to use Sofie. I am really interested. Oh I am sad there is only one ep left.

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"São só dois lados da mesma viagem.

O trem que chega é o mesmo trem da partida."

Encontros e Despedidas - Maria Rita

[Culzean]

I think Iris is the most intriguing character right now. She's certainly the most unpredictable.



Yes, she seems to have plans for her niece, Sofie. I also wonder if she has plans for that thug, Stroud. It's certainly possible that she isn't telling Justin about Strouds behavior because she thinks Justin won't do anything about it anyway. On the other hand, Iris has been known to be manipulative.



I do hope Stroud gets what's coming to him, and that Iris is the one to give it to him.

[xita]

Wow. So much happened there at the end. Jonesy? That's not fair, that's sad. And Sophie is evil, I told y'all! She can heal? She is the omega? She is bringing back Justin? It doesn't seem right that she can bring him back, seems like all was for not. I hate to think of what will happen to Iris. I liked how Samson gave Rita Sue the money. That was cool. I just hope this show is back again.



Evil Justin is so scary, he just killed poor what's his face who finally was able to speak again and I loved how he used the exorcism line! yay



I seriously have to watch this episode again.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"São só dois lados da mesma viagem.

O trem que chega é o mesmo trem da partida."

Encontros e Despedidas - Maria Rita

[Culzean]

Yeah, I am so bummed about Jonsey. I really liked his character. And to kill him in the midst of him being all heroic. I'm really sorry they killed him, but it was a very effective scene.



Earlier, when Jonesy was talking to Libby about Sofie, and Libby asked him "Are you still sweet on her?" And he said, "No." I half expected him to say, "No. Are you?"



That was a great episode. I loved the balance between the action and the quiet conversations between characters. That was a great scene between Samson and Rita Sue. I also loved Iris talking to Rev. Norman. I expected something more dramatic for Iris, but that was really nice.



In the first season, Ben healed a little girl who was lame. As she ran through the cornfields we saw all the vegetation dying. So in the last scene we see Sofie laying her hands on Justin and all the corn dying. How did Sofie get Ben's gift?



If there is a third season, I'll bet Sofie is bringing Justin back to life so that she can kill him herself. She did tell Ben once that she would kill her father if she ever met him because of what he did to her mother. If she's evil too, she can't want to bring Justin back and share power with him. As Gandalf said, there can only be one Lord of the Rings.



I sure hope there's a third season.

[maudmac]

I want to know what all happened in that shack where Sofie was being kept. After all the "every prophet in her house" and "this is your house" stuff. (What the hell was that about, anyway?) Something happened in there! What?!? I have to know! It's almost as though Sofie received the same kind of boon that Ben and Justin did after the deaths of Belyakov and Scudder.



Perhaps her power comes from the fetus? (Assuming she is pregnant, which we don't really know.) Remember that Scudder healed Ben once, in the first season, after Ben slashed his own neck in that cemetery. Scudder popped up and healed him. So, apparently, that healing ability isn't restricted to just the CoL. It's either something either side could/does have or it's something that's passed down within a family. Father Scudder and son Ben have it, so it follows that Ben's baby would.



Oh, I don't know.



This episode...it was so good in so many ways, lots of OMG! moments. But it left so many things unanswered and raised more new questions, so it's also very frustrating. Satisfying and unsatisfying at the same time. There has to be more. If not a full third season, a movie, something, anything. I demand it! Because I am still confused. And these stories are not finished!

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don't make me come up there - satan

[Warduke]

From AICN...

Quote:

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Variety Sources: CARNIVALE ‘Not Likely To Return’!!



It looks like we're not going to find out what dustbowl dweller Ben Hawkins' connection is to a future nuclear holocaust after all!



Thursday morning’s Variety reports that HBO has already picked up “Deadwood” for a third season, but the same piece has this:



Sunday's season finale for "Carnivale" delivered an above-average 2.4 million viewers, but insiders insist the show is not likely to return.



An HBO spokeswoman said a decision has not yet been reached. "Carnivale" creator-exec producer Daniel Knauf, however, has already begun developing a comedy series project for rival pay cablercabler Showtime.

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Firefox: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[maudmac]

Fuck! Are you serious?!?



I don't even know what to say. I am in denial right now.

---

don't make me come up there - satan

[xita]

I wish they would just say, this supense I don't like. I guess it's a done deal and I shouldn't hold on to any hope.

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"São só dois lados da mesma viagem.

O trem que chega é o mesmo trem da partida."

Encontros e Despedidas - Maria Rita

[Warduke]

From Variety.com...

'Carnivale' packing up

Cabler skein calls it quits

By JOSEF ADALIAN


HBO's "Carnivale""Carnivale" is leaving town.

The mystical Depression-era drama about the battle between good and evil is being shut down after two seasons, HBO confirmed Tuesday. Cabler had produced a total of 24 episodes of the skein over its two-season run.

HBO entertainment prexy Carolyn Strauss said the net had "decided not to renew 'Carnivale' " because the series had come to a natural end.

"We feel the two seasons we had on the air told the story very well, and we're proud of what everyone associated with the show accomplished," Strauss said in a statement released by the cabler.

Nick Stahl and Clancy Brown toplined "Carnivale," which was created by Daniel Knauf. Howard Klein and Knauf exec produced the series.

"Obviously, I'm disappointed," Klein said of HBO's decision. "It's a show I'm incredibly proud of. There are so many positives that came out of this experience."

"Carnivale" had its share of strong reviews, and won several Emmys, but didn't draw the universal acclaim generated by other HBO dramas such as "Deadwood" or "The Sopranos." HBO also never really gave the show a break in terms of scheduling or lead-ins, slotting the second season of the show Sundays at 9 p.m. opposite "Desperate Housewives," as well as such big ticket events as the Golden Globes, Super Bowl, Grammys and Oscars.

[Culzean]

"HBO entertainment prexy Carolyn Strauss said the net had "decided not to renew 'Carnivale' " because the series had come to a natural end. "

What the heck show was she watching?!!!

The least they could do is air a two-hour special to tie up the loose ends.

[maudmac]

Fuckers!

sigh

Every time something like this happens, I always think "Okay, that's the last straw, I am never watching TV again. They ruin everything!"

I've been thinking that since V got cancelled, at least. And I've thought it a hell of a lot of times since. And I obviously never learn. What's it gonna take?

So frustrating! This show was not over and anyone who thinks that either didn't see it or didn't pay attention. Why can't the network just be honest? "It didn't do as well as we'd hoped it would and we can't keep it on the air. Sorry." I get that. It's a business. It has to make money. But this "natural end" stuff is crap.

[xita]

This fucking sucks. I tell you.