How Do You Know?????

[taraslove]

Hey, everybody! I have been lurking for a few months now, and have enjoyed everybody’s posts. I must say, I’ve been trying to figure some things out and wondered if anybody here might have some input. I’ve recently been wondering if I might be gay.

A few years ago, I had an escalated friendship (for lack of a better word) with my best friend. We started spending the night at each other’s houses and “giving backrubs” and such in bed. It took a few months to get very far, and we never actually went all the way, but I felt like I was really in love with her. We never talked about it during the day, but at night, she’d cuddle up to me during movies and hold me and then we’d go to bed and be all over each other and then hold each other for the longest time. Then, one day, I guess she just decided that she didn’t want that type of relationship because she stopped cuddling and anytime I’d go to touch her, she’d just freeze up. I finally gave up trying. We’re still really good friends, and I still feel like I love her, but it’s been a long time since she’s been affectionate.

Because of this situation, I started to, um, do some “research” on the internet and try to figure things out. That’s when I came across Willow and Tara. I loved their story from the beginning. I rented and watched seasons 4 – 6 of Buffy right away. I was horrified and shocked when Tara died. And then I poked around on the Kitten Board looking for more. I love it here. Like I know all of you because of Willow and Tara. Because of their relationship.

I decided that it was time to register because I wanted to pose the ubiquitous, centuries-old question:

How do you know if you’re gay?

And, another, companion question:

How do you know if other girls are gay?

I mean, it all seems kind of complicated to me. Is there like a checklist or something? Do lesbians wear (or not wear) certain kinds of clothes, do their hair a certain way, act a certain way, have a secret handshake or something?

I don’t really feel this undying drive to classify myself or anything like that. If I love somebody, I think that will take care of itself. I just wondered if there are things I can look for that will help make any of this more clear. If anybody can help me out with this, I’d really be grateful. Love to you all!
~taraslove

ps. Sorry if this has been covered in another thread. I didn't see one, so I took a chance.

[tazraven]

Hey Taraslove.

Oddly enough, I went through a very similar experience. About four and a half years ago I had a friend. We would hold hands and find reasons to hold each other, but I was always wondering if she liked me and if I was gay. Six months after the hand holding started I decided to bite the bullet and talk to her. I think that's the difference between both of our experiences. After I talked to her we started dating and we just celebrated our four year anniversary.

So, how do you know if you're gay? Honestly, it can be a pretty simple question. Do you appreciate how other women look? Do you get crushes on girls? It took me a little while to realize that some of the girls I thought I liked as friends, were actually crushes. Either way though, you don't have to put yourself in a category. You can like a girl and a boy, it doesn't matter as long as your happy.

That being said, how do you know if another girl is gay? Beats me. Considering I'm much too shy a person to ever ask and the fact that I'm perfectly happy with my girlfriend, I have no clue. If you like a girl and you sense flirting going on and if you're not as shy as me, then just ask. This girl you were with sounds like maybe she was just trying to experiment, but if you felt deeper feelings, then maybe a talk was in order. Either way, most questions can be cleared up with a conversation. Of course, if a girl is flirting shamelessly with you and you two start to make out, she's probably gay .

Lol, checklist. Just be who you are. Heheh, secret handshake.

I hope I helped a little, though I'm not sure I did. If you ever want to talk to someone, just pm me and I'll be glad to.

~Sara

[JustSkipIt]

taraslove – Hi there. I saw your note yesterday but haven’t had a chance to reply. I think that this could go in the Coming Out Thread which is sticky at the top of here. Still…

Let me say that I’m not a therapist. I’m a regular person and here are my thoughts.

I’m glad that you’ve enjoyed the board. We try to be an open and accepting group I think so I hope that it’s helped.

I totally understand what you’re saying about the relationship with your friend and I think that’s an experience that many of us have or have had. It seems to me that lots of people have curiosity or wishes to be closer with someone (perhaps someone of the same sex) and they start to explore. And some of us decide that that (being with someone of the same sex) is really the direction we want to go and some decide that it’s not. I had a girl in college that I really felt I loved and we kissed and touched but then she decided that it wasn’t for her. So I get that.

Now don’t get me wrong. I don’t want any flames and I’m not saying that it’s always a choice but I’m saying that people want to explore the possibilities. I hope that in her doing that (and you doing that), you haven’t felt hurt.

I think that there are very many women (and men too) who really relate to the W/T relationship both on TV and as it lives in Fan Fic and this board. And, yes, many of those people are lesbians.

How do you know if you’re gay?

Well if you’re asking the question then you’re open to it. My counter question is “why do you need to have the label?” You may be gay and you may want to declare yourself such. I consider myself gay/lesbian and will say so in conversation. But if you’re not sure, that’s ok too. Maybe you’re just you and who you are is a woman who may be interested in having a relationship with another woman. And that’s just a fantastic person to be.

But if you want to know how you can detect that you’re interested… Well you’ve got one start because you like W/T. What about other women? Are you attracted to women (in press or in person)? Do you fantasize about women or men? I’m not saying that’s the answer but it might be an opening.

Whatever/whoever you are is ok.

How do you know if other girls are gay?
I mean, it all seems kind of complicated to me. Is there like a checklist or something? Do lesbians wear (or not wear) certain kinds of clothes, do their hair a certain way, act a certain way, have a secret handshake or something?

That is the $100,000 question I think. The answer to all of those questions (except the handshake (unless I’ve missed it)) is both yes and no. There are some lesbians who wear their hair in a certain way (very short or long in back, short in front) and some who absolutely wear their hair in every which way (look at Portia De Rossi’s hair). Do they wear certain kinds of clothes? Again yes and no. Some may wear pants more than you expect or just seem comfortably dressed or not wear makeup. But some are as “femme” as anyone. I think that as one grows older or more experience in the culture, it become easier and easier to spot 90% of “family” but it’s never foolproof. And I don’t mean that to be a slam on youth, I just think that it’s something you can learn. I also think that if you live in an area with a high number of lesbians, they may be more open about it and you will notice them. I live in a very liberal, very gay-friendly town and it’s very hard not to notice lesbians everywhere we go. But I don’t think you can just spot them through magic or anything.

I know, that wasn’t very uplifting was it? Here’s my advice and it’s the same advice I give everyone who wants to meet someone. Do the things you like. Pursue your hobbies and join groups of people who like those hobbies. That way if you meet someone you like, it will be someone who likes the same things you do and if you don’t, you’re still getting to do your hobbies and what you enjoy. And maybe someone who likes the same things you do someday says to you, “You know what? I think you and my sister would really hit it off. Are you seeing anyone?”

The other thing is that you can sort of be a little vague about it. Like you can ask a girl to get coffee and that’s a fine thing to do and then you can kind of “feel her out” like is she seeing anyone? Does she talk about her ex without ever mentioning a name or gender? Better yet, does she say that her ex-girlfriend… great! And you can drop hints or you can come right out and say that you like her or that you wonder if you’re gay or whatever you’re comfortable saying.

Depending on where you live, there may be organizations like gay-straight alliance or gay student groups (you don’t say how old or what grade you’re in/college). That may be a good place to start to just find out who/what is out there.

Anyway, I hope my rambling has been helpful. I’m available by PM if you want. Good luck and congratulations for having the courage and heart to ask these questions of yourself and a supportive community.

[idontlikejam]

hello, i dont know if anything i say will have validity for anyone else but its just my experiences (ie. short life history )

um, well the first person i ever had feelings for when i was about 16 was a boy so i never really wondered about my sexuality, i didnt think about it that much to be honest, then when i finally got over my feelings for him i started fancying my then best friend and i knew i did cus i wanted to be close to her and hold her and also she had a very hot body, so i would have to try and not stare when whe was in a bikini and stuff, but that never went anywhere cus she had a boyfriend. so then i went to university and fell for another girl who i became best friends with but she also had a boyfriend so that went nowhere too.

the point of all this is that during the whole time i felt that i never ever questioned my sexuality or thought to myself, i'm gay! it just happened slowly, got a bit speeded up when i started a relationship with a guy and realised that maybe it wasnt that i was completely asexual but that boys just didnt turn me on or interest me sexually.

so then i started saying to myself, ok ive fancied girls, and boys do nothing for me anymore, so maybe im gay. then i started testing it out by thinking about women i met or saw and their bodies and how i would feel about going out with them and stuff. and it made me happy and it made me stop worrying about being weird for not getting turned on by boys. so for me it basically boiled down to who do you want to have sex with/who has the sexiest bodies voila youre gay!


as for how do you know about other girls, i too live in a very gay friendly place and there are lots of gay clubs so if you go to them you start to recognise people etc. and there are a lot of high visibility lesbian who have short boyish hair, wear more masculine clothes/no makeup. but apart from the obvious ones, it really can be hard to tell with girls you just meet who look feminine. my advice - if you like them, try and hit on them anyway. thats how i got my current girlfriend who 'used to be straight' till i started flirting outrageously with her

[madeinnz]

Like the others who have replied before me, I'm no expert. I can just say what my experience has been in the 40 years I've been around (*tries to fight back the tears at reaching the big four oh*)

I think your experience is common for young girls in general. I don't necessarily think its a clear indication either way. I've known girls who have had a similar experience and gone on to be happily married with lots of kids. There is just something very intense about female relationships. Most people get curious at one time or another.

I know its probably not very helpful - but you'll know when you know. Just go on doing what feels right and what you're comfortable with. Your heart will lead you in the right direction. At some point the haze will clear and you'll slap your forehead (metophorically of course - unless you like that kind of thing) and say "Oh - I'm *fill in the blank*. It all makes sense to me now".

Its very hard to pick the girls-who-love-girls out of the crowd these days. If you really want to be sure you'll need to go to places where we hang out. Gay bars, softball games, Indigo Girls concerts, Home Depot . Otherwise its a guessing game. Especially when you're blessed with a defective gaydar like me.

Or the Readers Digest condensed version:

Q: How do I know I'm gay?
A: You want to kiss girls.

Q: How do I know if another girl is gay?
A: They kiss you back

[taraslove]

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts and comments. It's nice to know that there are others who have had similar experiences and are as supportive as anyone could want.

Like I said, I'm not looking for an easy answer or even to put myself on some type of list. I've been categorized and such by people my entire life and I feel like I'm just now breaking out of that. So, I'm in a good place. Just curious about how it all works.

JustSkipIt, yes it was hard to go through it, but I understand where my friend was coming from and I didn't feel hurt at all. I saw her this weekend actually, and all was well. I still love her, but I don't expect anything out of her, so that's good for both of us. (Though I imgaine if she ever starts dating someone, I'll be outrageously jealous. ) Thank you for your kind words.

I'm also not as young as you might think. Out of college and all. Late bloomer, that's me. But again I'm good with it.

Anyway, happy holidays to you all and thanks for your input!
~taraslove

[Alicepire]

How do you know if other girls are gay?
I mean, it all seems kind of complicated to me. Is there like a checklist or something? Do lesbians wear (or not wear) certain kinds of clothes, do their hair a certain way, act a certain way, have a secret handshake or something?

That is the $100,000 question I think. The answer to all of those questions (except the handshake (unless I’ve missed it)) is both yes and no. There are some lesbians who wear their hair in a certain way (very short or long in back, short in front) and some who absolutely wear their hair in every which way (look at Portia De Rossi’s hair). Do they wear certain kinds of clothes? Again yes and no. Some may wear pants more than you expect or just seem comfortably dressed or not wear makeup. But some are as “femme” as anyone. I think that as one grows older or more experience in the culture, it become easier and easier to spot 90% of “family” but it’s never foolproof. And I don’t mean that to be a slam on youth, I just think that it’s something you can learn. I also think that if you live in an area with a high number of lesbians, they may be more open about it and you will notice them. I live in a very liberal, very gay-friendly town and it’s very hard not to notice lesbians everywhere we go. But I don’t think you can just spot them through magic or anything.

OK. for some reason this got me thinking *warning, long and slightly off topic rant ahead* Why is it that alot of gay chicks wear practical clothes and short hair? Is it part of the gay gene to dress slightly less feminely or pay less attention to the pointless fashion trends? Or is it a way for a minority, with no natural outward signs of difference to the majority, to identify each other? The whole acting slightly like a stereotype so that when opportunity comes along, it recognises you. But then things become stereotypes for a reason? Does it date back to times when some chicks had to pretend to be guys so they could go out with their girlfriends in public without being persecuted? Or was that just a random dream I had...
I've always had alternitive hair, not been interested in fashion and always worn baggy jeans and a comfy T-shirt, not because I was trying to be part of a stereotype, but cos it was comfy, yet somehow I ended up looking kinda like a stereotype anyway. Was this just a coincidence or was I subconsiously doing it deliberately?
But then if it goes with the 'comfy clothes and gayness' theory, what about people who don't fit into the stereotype? Did they just miss out on the 'sensible clothes' gene, or does this prove that my theory was purely born out of lack of sleep and that everyone is different, but the existance of an expected stereotype just makes it easier to notice those who fit it? If it was expected that dykes were the most dress loving, long hair having people ever, would it change what the actual people wore? Supporting the 'people trying to stand out from others and fit in where they identify' theory. Or would the current expected short hair and comfy clothes still reign, supportig the 'comfy clothes gene' theory.
Or have I just over thought this way too much and need to get out more?

[masterjendu]

Hey Taraslove,

I just saw this thread and wanted to comment because it is an excellent question. Sorry though, I don’t think I have any actual answers for you; just the camaraderie of a similar tale. I too was a late bloomer, coming out at 26 a few years after having fallen in love with my best friend (the touching fizzled much in the same way yours did, we talked about it and remain best friends to this day). Since the age of 26, I have had two girlfriends, both of whom were straight until they were with me and continued to be straight after me (just dabbling for a few years each, I guess!). So your second question gets even more complicated when seemingly straight girls are not completely straight (all that female intensity, I guess)!

I totally wish there was a checklist! I have no idea what a gay scene is! I lived in South Korea (where homosexuality ‘doesn’t exist’) and have just returned home (newly single) to a conservative city, filled with trepidation about putting myself ‘out’ there! Jeepers!

JustSkipIt’s advice is the best (I’ll try to follow it myself): look for connections with people in areas you enjoy. I truly believe that love is lithe and knows nothing of gender, so I’m glad you’re no longer worrying too much about defining yourself; it is the connection that matters.

Thanks for bringing this up,
Jen

P.S. I am happy to hear that you are enjoying the board. It is a uniquely creative and supportive atmosphere, isn't it?

ETA: I just realised how old this post actually is, so although my response wasn't timely at all, I suppose the question is timeless enough!

[kisstheviolets]

ps. Sorry if this has been covered in another thread. I didn't see one, so I took a chance.

it's a sticky thread at the top of page on of the kitten: coming out.

[jay/wt4evr]

Hi taraslove
glad you enjoying the kittenboard!
Anyway maybe I'll second the more experienced Kittens that alredy answered you, but well, a little more doesn't hurt!!
I knew I was gay all my life {boy how lame} cos I was checking out girls, and ONLY girls; jeez as a kid I wanted to be a boy!! just to be with girls the 'right' way. then I grew up and still wanted to be wih girls, don't care which way, cos is not important what people think of you, is not that that tells you 'what' you are, is the way you feel that matters.
and well, tehe bell that rang my gaybell was when my girl friends said about actors and actresses 'He's handsome I wanna be WITH him/She's beautiful I wanna be LIKE her' and I was thinking 'boy he's handsome I wanna be like him/She's beautiful I wanna be with her' well, more or less, ccoz I had a major complex I wanted to be a guy half of my life..
anyway, for the -insert very huge number- dollars question, I don't have a gaydar, but I know when a girl isn't gay...well, you SEE when a girl isn't, and I honestly don't know how to explain that sorry
Well, good luck and remember that nodoby needs labels, expecially Kittens!

[Guest]

Hiya taraslove,

I think being gay is all about an identity in constant mutation. Unlike the heterosexual girl or guy who expresses the same identity at all levels: emotional, social, professional; the gay person in the initial stages of homosexuality adapts to circumstances. S/he might appear to be straight, have intense bisexual feelings while internally proclaiming her/himself to be gay...and that last part would be relative to my personal experience.

The heterosexual has been educated in a heterosexual world. The homosexual, on the other hand, benefits from no particular role models as to the cultural etiquettes of a gay world and only starts her/his apprenticeship into sexual orientation during adolescence or adulthood. I feel this might be a reason for which most young people have difficulties in perceiving who is gay and who is not.

As for lesbian relationships, I would like to refer to what madeinnz said on the affective intensity present between girls. It's so true. Based on therapeutic interventions I elaborated last year with fellow co-workers, we found that the intensity between girls is largely due to the fact that emotions are expressed both ways because channels for expressing them are available. This is a factor that is more rarely found in the heterosexual couple owing to the differences in genetic make-up between males and females.

I also agree with Jen that JustSkipIt's advice is a really good piece of advice. Thank you. Experimentation is also a good way of building self-schemas that later on aid in the final establishment of who we really are and what we really want from the emotional perspective. In any case, exploring these diverse facets of ourselves turns out to be a truly enriching avenue.

Vi'