The Trans Thread

[BasilGray]

Hello kittens



First, let me present myself. My name is Daniel, I'm 20 and gay. Oh, and I'm also studying to be a psychologist



I initiated this topic because I would really like to obtain some information about transsexuality. Anything would do, books, personal stories, real examples, opinions (as long as they have a basis, of course). The reason I'm asking this is that, quite frankly, I'm quite clueless about the field of transsexuality as a whole (I'm really sorry), and as a wannabe-psychologist (and as a person, of course), I feel it's my duty to study and try to understand this matter a little further.



Thank you so very much,



Daniel

Edited by: xita  at: 8/25/03 9:43 pm

[urnofosiris]

Welcome to the board BasilGray.

I myself am a (FTM) transexual, though I must confess I have read very little about it. I have read medical articles during med school but until recently no books. What knowledge I had came mostly from experience you could say, but that is worth a lot of books I think, heh heh.



Anyway, an easy way to find interesting articles and such is to do a google ( www.google.com ) search, if you type in transsexuality or transsexualism you'll get a lot of hits, which includes a rather huge amount of porn sites, but you can limit your search somewhat.



Thanks to this board I have learned more than what my experience and medical background had taught me. Our former moderator April (who is unfortunately is occupied by life stuff) sent me some books which I would like to recommend to you as she did me:





"Read my Lips" by Riki Anne Wilchins

"Transgender Warriors" by Leslie Feinberg

"Transmen & FTMs" by Jason Cromwell



What makes them interesting is that they are written by transexuals and/or members of the LGBT community rather than by people who made a study of transsexualism.



That's a start I think. There are multiple references in these books to other books and articles which may help you along as well.



As for personal stories, I have rarely talked about this on the board, but you can ask what you would like to know, if it is not too personal I can reply here or otherwise via email.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

Edited by: DrG at: 9/10/02 3:36:47 pm

[Jennpurr]

Hey Garfield,



Forgive my ignorance, but FTM... that means, Female to Male, right? Just trying to make sure I'm thinking of the right terminology.



I had one more question, hope you don't mind. Anyone can answer this. Um... when someone says Transgendered, is that basically the same as Transexual? I get so confused with all the terms.



Jen

- - - - -
|My Fan Fiction and More|

"... Evil's good..." ~ Tara, from the shooting script for, "Seeing Red.""We're more centered on the, girl on girl action." ~ Willow

Edited by: Jennpurr at: 9/10/02 11:24:54 am

[kyraroc]

FTM is the abbreviation for Female To Male (it's also the abbreviation for Freedom To Marry, which I've seen cause some odd confusions . . . ) MTF is Male To Female.



Transgendered is a more general term than transsexual, although the definitions are not exactly set in stone. Usually, transgendered refers to anyone whose gender does not fit neatly into the traditional categories of male vs. female as determined by the equipment you're born with. Transsexuals are specifically people who are living as and/or transitioning to the gender opposite to the one they were born with, and I've also seen it used to refer to people who cross-dressed but were not necessarily living as/transitioning to. So, transsexuals are transgendered, but not all transgendered people are necessarily transsexuals.



--- KR

[Gatito Grande]

Don't wanna trump Dr.G, but jumping in, Jen.



I'm also (somewhere!) on the FTM spectrum. In general transgendered ("tg") is a broader term than transsexual. With rare exceptions, a transsexual is using/has used some combination of hormones and/or surgical reassignment (or wants to!). So, a transsexual is transgendered, but not all transgendered persons are transsexuals. Got it?



GG If anyone wondered why my email addy is "tgflux" now ya know! Out



Edited to add: heck, a second late and a dime short! What KR said.

Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 9/10/02 11:53:44 am

[EffieBlue]

HI BasilGray.



in the UK channel 4 TV has done several programmes on transgender issues starting several years ago with a programme called "Fred" .



If you go to http://www.channel4.com go to search the web and type in Transgender, you can get about 100 sites, covering most aspects. from european legal issues, prostheses, drug issues, and black transgender groups.



hope this is of use.



Jill

*****************
"MY heart belongs to Roslyn and it always will. I feel as if she and I have known each other through many incarnations, throughout the ages our souls are one and I, I can't imagine my life without her." Cicely. Northern Exposure. (of course she got shot through the heart a little later and died in Roslyns arms........)

[urnofosiris]

Well heh could not have answered that better myself, as it is transexual or LGBT terminology in general confuse me too at times, which is not helped by the fact that English is not my native tongue. What can be difficult is that some terms may offend one person and not another. The book (written with a lot of wry humour) by Riki Anne Wilchins inllustrates that nicely, she has an amusing lists of things to not say, heh, some of the things she lists don't bother me much but there ya go, no such thing as complete agreement or pleasing everyone.

I can tell you one huge don't ever do that when you type and are referring to someone's gender and that is never ever use quotation marks.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

[BasilGray]

Thank you very, very much for the replies I really want to know more about this subject. For now, I have a question... someone told me that there are people who claim to have both genders (both feminine and masculine genders, in a psychic way); other people claim having no gender (again, in a psychic way). I was wondering, what would be the 'scientific term' that would apply to these people? I don't think transgendered would do, since I belive transgendered only applies to people who have one gender and are not wholly satisfied with it.

Also, Dr. G, thank you for your reply, I'll be sure to get some of those books from Amazon or somewhere else. A boy has to read his literature during the summer (I'll try squeezing between Agatha Christie and Virginia Woolf ).

[Rosenberg]

BasilGray, you wouldn’t be referring to hermaphrodite, would you? Although that’s not a psychic thing, it’s an actual physical condition. I guess I’m not really sure what you mean when you say in a psychic way.

[Jennpurr]

Hey guys,



Thanks for explaining the differences between the two terms for me. I was thinking along those lines, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the help.



BasilGray, the term you are looking for, is it hermaphrodite (sp?) or intersexed? There is also a term that is sometimes used: imbiguous genetalia (sp?) Not sure if that is spelled right, but basically they mean the same thing. There are some differences, however. But, basically the person or child has both sex organs.



Alot of times now, when a baby is born that is intersexed, they do corrective surgery, which I do NOT believe in. I think the child should be left alone. Let that child make his/her own decision when they are old enough to whether they want the surgery done or not. It can leave such mental trauma on the individual. Not to mention, the physical loss of feeling/ect. It's really sad and I just wish the Drs would think more about the child's wellbeing, then making them look "right" in their eyes. That's a bunch of crap, if you ask me. No offense to any Drs who may be reading this, I just don't understand it.



Anyway, hope that helps. I think that's what you were looking for?



Take care,

Jen



Edited: Rosenberg, you snuck in there while I was typing. Sorry.

- - - - -
|My Fan Fiction and More|

"... Evil's good..." ~ Tara, from the shooting script for, "Seeing Red.""We're more centered on the, girl on girl action." ~ Willow

Edited by: Jennpurr at: 9/10/02 7:29:42 pm

[Bookcat]

Jennpurr, I think its spelled "ambigious genitalia".



And I don't think you mean in a physical way, right, BasilGray? I think you might mean people who consider themselves asexual or people who are in between the genders--like deciding which they are, or something. I don't know much about it, but I've definitely heard something vague in that area.

"Intellectuals are in notoriously bad shape"

[Jennpurr]

Bookcat, That's it. Thanks. I couldn't remember how to spell it. You know, you're right. I didn't think about asexuals, which normally is used when someone doesn't consider themselves either male or female, right? Is that correct? I don't want to get it wrong.



BasilGray, there is alot of info Here if you are interested in reading on Intersexed peoples. I don't know if that is what you were looking for, but there is alot of terminology/info there. There is also a doctor by the name of Dr. Howard Devore, he's an author and physcologist. He's also intersexed. You may have seen him on the Montel Williams show or some other programs on TV.



Hope that helps, if that is indeed what you are looking for.



Jen

- - - - -
|My Fan Fiction and More|

"... Evil's good..." ~ Tara, from the shooting script for, "Seeing Red.""We're more centered on the, girl on girl action." ~ Willow

Edited by: Jennpurr at: 9/10/02 7:50:31 pm

[Gatito Grande]

BG, I'm also not exactly sure of what you're getting at, but the term for "combining elements of both genders" is androgyny.



Androgyny means different things in different contexts, but it does have a philosophical component which may touch on what you mean by "a psychic way." Back in the Good Ol' Days (aka the '70s), when radical feminism was seen by most intellectuals as a good thing, some people "male" and "female" were thinking about how to get past the duality of gender and mix it up. One book from back then on the subject was Androgyny: Toward a New Theory of Sexuality by June Singer. I can neither praise nor trash it; it's one of those books on my shelf saying "Read me!"



A more recent wrinkle along these lines is the idea of gender transgression (I believe that Riki Wilchins, Les Feinberg and Patrick Califia are proponents of this). Whereas androgyny was more of intermingling of masculine and feminine, "gender transgression" is a little more In Your Face. Not just mixing genders, but Blowing Up the whole concept. Gender transgressors may or may not use hormones, may or may not have surgical modification(s), but it's less about crossing from one to the other than finding a third (fourth, fifth, ad infinitum) way.



Gender transgression may also include more radical sexual expressions. For example: transfags and transdykes. That is, respectively, "born female, become male, love men" and "born male, become female, love women."( I attended an FTM conference a few years ago which had a workshop called "From Dyke to Fag": now ain't that a trip!)



For some tg's, gender transgression is a cause: the Last Frontier of Human Liberation. For others, it merely describes their lives ("if anyone wants to know"). In practice, it just says that every individual human being has the right to decide for themselves how they express the qualities which have been known as "male" or "female."



GG As ye harm no one, do as ye will! Out

[Elianna]

BG,



I think that you meant psychological. Psychic usually refers to paranormal, such as mind-reading or telling the future.



Psychological is pertaining to how people think, for example, looking at the psychological relationship between a person and his/her lover.



That might be what's causing a bit of confusion. I know that it's hard switching languages, especially in a technical subject.



,

Elianna

Cozy Moments will not be muzzled!
Psmith

[kyraroc]

BasilGray, assuming you are talking about purely mental traits, which I took you to be doing, both people who considered themselves to be neither sex and people who considered themselves to be both could fall within the realm of the transgendered. Transgendered does not necessarily apply only "to people have one gender and are not wholly satisfied with it", but in fact covers a very broad range of thought and behavior.



As for precise scientific terminology for what you describe, though . . . not sure. Androgyny, which I have heard used to refer to either mental of physical traits, is probably the best best in my opinion. Hermaphroditic usually refers specifically to a physical state, and asexuality usually refers to orientation rather than gender. So I would think androgyny would be the best term for the specific situation you describe . . . at least, it's the one I've always used.



--- KR

[Guinevere]

Don't know if anyone saw this last night. Discovery Health had a special called Sex, Gender, and Desire. It was really informative.

It will be airing again the 15th. I have dish network and its channel 189, I don't know if discovery health is only DishNetwork or not.



Here's the link from Yahoo TV:

tv.yahoo.com/tvpdb?d=tvp&...0&.intl=us



woah that's long!



Gwen

"I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once."

[Gatito Grande]

I want to send a shout out to Discovery Health Channel. They have run (and will probably run again) a number of programs about those born intersexed (formerly known as hermaphrodites but intersexed is today the preferred term).



I also would recommend A&E's program "Investigative Reports: The Transgender Revolution." (It too will probably come around again---check your listings!)



Intersexed persons and transgendered persons are different groups w/ different histories and/or agendas. On the other hand, there is some evidence many transgendered people probably have a form of intersexuality within their brains.



The whole development of the human being, from conception on, is extremely complex. Sperm and egg, chromosomes, hormones, conditions in the womb . . . and then all those nurture conditions, after one is born: they all play a role in determining what we are, who we are, and whom we're sexually attracted to.



To paraphrase Shakespeare, "What a piece of work is (a hu-)man." In light of 9/11, if only we could unite in celebrating our diversity.



GG Really hung up on the Big Questions today. Out

[Elianna]

GG,



When you say "within their brains", do you mean psychologically, or the physical aspect of how a person's brain is set up, or both, or neither?



And I wish that I got discovery health, but alas, I don't.



-Elianna

Cozy Moments will not be muzzled!
Psmith

[Gatito Grande]

Probably both, but mainly the latter: there are measurable neurological differences on average between males and females. Just as clearly, there are "XX's" whose brains are closer to the average male's, and "XY's" whose brains more closely resemble the average female's.



GG But I don't want to overstate this (like Simon LeVay's research on the brain and sexuality); it's still all very early in our understanding of gender and the brain. Out

[Cipher]

I don't know if you'd be able to find it, but a while back HBO aired a documentary called "Southern Comfort" (named after a TG convention in the southern US) about a man who died of ovarian cancer because southern doctors refused to treat him. It documents the last year of his life (I think he was getting treated by that point). I recommend it if you can find it.

[Gatito Grande]

Robert Eades. I never got to meet him, but I've met guyz who knew him well.



The story of his abuse at the hands of the doctors who could have saved him is reflective of the treatment TG people receive at all levels. Generally speaking, think of how queers are mistreated in this society, multiply it by a factor of about 10, and you get the reality TGs/TSs face. Dozens and dozens of TGs (most often MTFs) are brutally murdered in the U.S. every year, w/o getting one iota of the attention of a Matthew Sheppard. In the eyes of too many doctors, EMTs, cops (and the rest of the law), transpeople's lives mean nothing.



GG And then TGs frequently get sold out by many lesbigays: "Oh, they're too weird. Leave them out of the anti-discrimination law, or it won't pass." Pisses me off just a little bit, or couldn't you tell? Out

[arvoitus]

Hello,

my name is Marc (yes I leagally changed it!) I am 19 and also ftm.

This is mostly addressed to DrG though anyone can reply. My question is, how can a person come to terms with being ftm? How do you deal with it? I mean, even if I had surgery I'll always be transsexual. No matter what, I'll never be just a guy, and then I think why should that even be my goal? Can't I just be myself? I went to the bank today and they refer to me as Ms. Marc. I pass 100%, facial hair and everything and still it's Ms. Marc. How ridiculous is that? It makes me so angry and then I think what's the point of all this anyway? Why put all this work into it if at the end of the day it's always going to be Ms. Marc?



I'm really struggling with this and probably there are better boards to ask this on...



So if this is grossly inappropriate, I'm sorry, feel free to ignore...

[Gatito Grande]

Hi Marc:



If the bank called you "Ms. Marc" cuz your ID says "F," you should be able to get that changed. If they say it because they knew you as female (pre-transition), then that's trickier. You can always look at it as an "opportunity to educate" and request that they address you as you prefer (and visibly are!). Or, you may not want to deal w/ it---in which case, change banks or branches. Combined w/ a "M" on your new ID, that should take care of the problem.



"Coming to terms": oy vey, how does anyone come to terms w/ anything? This isn't to belittle your situation---I didn't transition, and everyone sees me as female again (though I don't feel it). But there's just no easy answer to your question. I think you're on the right track, though, when you say "Can't I just be myself?" Aim for that, and the "Am I a just guy/Should I be?" dilemma will work itself out in time. That way also, you can decide whether surgery will help you to feel "more like yourself" apart from pre-conceived notions of what you ought to be.*



Good luck, bro!



GG If you'd like to talk more, Marc, you can reach me at tgflux@excite.com Out



*Though of course, you deciding that you need it doesn't necessarily mean the freakin' medical establishment will let you do it---nor, depending on what country you live in---pay for it.

[urnofosiris]

Hi Marc, welcome to the board.



This board has helped me a lot just by being able to read about other people's experiences. I am especially referring to the coming out stories, most of these are about coming out as gay or bi, but the fears/problems/feelings etc that can come along with coming out and/or accepting yourself are the same as they have been for me. Any topics of interest of the LGBT community are on topic here, so I hope you will stick around and read them, maybe it will help you like it did me, though you may not get answers to all your questions, which are very difficult questions to answer.



I agree with Gatito. It is different for everyone I think. I can tell you a little bit of how it is for me. I am 31 now and I waited 28 years before I finally decided to seek treatment. I have asked myself the questions you just asked over the years and still I cannot give a clear reply when it comes to me, my head is still full of questions I don't have the answers to.



I am fortunate that I live in a country where my treament is covered by my insurance, where I can change my legal documents, where my coworkers , family and friends try very hard to address me as he now, eventhough their brains are so used to she. For the people who know me this is the trickiest part, those who don't know me see me as just a guy, eventhough I am not.



I am not just a guy, nor do I want to be really. I am myself and the labels that exist don't quite fit me. That is ok though. Though the only ms I want to be addressed as is Ms Moderator Fantastico . If the lady at the bank were to call me ms I would not be pleased to say the least. In the end you should be who you want to be and be adressed how you want to be addressed. Unfortunately that is not the way it works.



I (or anyone else for that matter) cannot tell you what to do, but I will say that I feel that the decision to have surgery should be yours alone, meaning you should not have to do it to conform to what other people's ideas of a 'real' guy or a real transexual (some people feel that someone who does not want to have surgery isn't a real transexual) are.



If you want you can ask more questions here or email me as well: garfield@kittenboard.com



Eh I have not said all I wanted to say but I have to go to work now.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

Edited by: DrG at: 9/14/02 8:11:13 am

[BLbear]

What would be the percentage of people in the general population that would be considered a hermaphrodite?

[Gatito Grande]

BLbear, while the intersexed (the preferred term over "hermaphrodite") and the transsexual/transgendered are distinctly different communities, they do have some overlapping concerns: 1) *not* neatly fitting into the masculine males/feminine females dichotomy, and 2) wrestling w/ the medical establishment: against unwanted medical interventions, and for wanted ones (as defined by the patient).



For answers to your questions on the intersexed, I recommend you go here:



www.isna.org/



The ISNA is a group by the intersexed, and for the intersexed. They can give you the Real Deal.



GG Standing against the gender-dichotomy *straight-jacket* Out

[dekalog]

Jumping in really late - don't know any percentages of those born with both male and female sex organs - sorry.



Regarding 'feeling' both male and female though, it is more common than people think I believe. I really believe that a great deal of people struggle with issues like their role, their identity, and coping with the fact that their likes or dislikes might not fall into the norm of what people consider valid or true to a specific definition of gender. I grew up very much a tomboy, but femmed up after coming to terms with my sexuality in a positive way. Still I wonder how much stronger I would have been if my parents hadn't been so strict in their idea of what a girl should be, etc.



A book that really opened my mind in regards to gender roles, transsexualism, my own identity and the fucked up messages that we both send out and receive is Gender Outlaw by Kate Bornstein. Like the books DrG mentioned it's a memoir from a wonderfully brave, charming and funny individual who lives in America. The tag line for the book really says it all for me - On Men, Women, and the Rest of Us.



She does a wonderful job of really sorting though all the shit, talking about empowerment, and there is even an excerpt from a play she wrote which goes into the idea of a third gender that is neither man nor woman but both.

[BLbear]

Maybe I should of said what is the percentage of people born with both male/female organs?Is it a rarity?

[maudmac]

BLbear, according the Discovery Channel documentary, "Is it a Boy or a Girl?" one out of every two thousand children in America is born intersexual.

---

Pussy crack corn...and I don't care! -- Margaret Cho

[sprhrgrl]

Oh wow, what a time for this to be dug up from the vaults.



Gatito Grande mentioned, erm, last year, gender transgression. This concept has recently become more and more intriguing to me, as I have embraced an action that I'm calling genderfuck and now a gender in itself that I'm calling genderqueer.



I've just subscribed to the Sphere mailing list after finding this great page, (both of) which I've found interesting and helpful. I haven't introduced myself because I haven't really found a way to articulate myself yet, but I plan to do so in the nearish future.



But yeah. I just had to post because the thread was there. . . And I don't really. . . Know.

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

racism=sexism=homophobia

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

Edited by: sprhrgrl  at: 6/17/03 9:29 pm