Sex? Yes, Please! (Or not?) The sexual ethics thread

[Gatito Grande]

(Mods, I didn't see another thread like this, but feel free to move as appropriate)



Kittens,



I want to talk about some difficult stuff re: myself, and get your input. However, it's my hope we can have a good ol' Kitten Roundtable over some tricky (and/or sticky!) issues.



I, Gatito Grande, am a 41 year-old bisexual female-bodied person who has had one---count 'em one---sex partner/lover, my ex-husband. I went without until he came along when I was 29, and I haven't had any since well before he left me more than two years ago. This is *not*, ahem, a satisfactory situation for me.



Why have I been such a sexual wall-flower? Well, that's not an easy question to answer. I have decent personal hygiene, and have even been told I'm "cute" on more than one occasion. While I can't completely dismiss the possibility than I am not considered especially desirable, I think it has more to do w/ what's going on inside my head.



My ex is the only one I've knocked boots with, but he's also the only one I've said "I love you" to (in the *romantic* way), and vice-versa. In my mind, for the conscious part of my 41 years, these two things have gone together: no sex w/o love. I really can't conceive of the former w/o the latter.



But maybe I want to try. More than anything, I want the Total Package: a woman who would love me com-pletely, the physical part integrated into the whole. However, that may not be in the cards for me, and I don't think I'm willing to go the rest of life without sexual companionship.



At the same time, there's my own emotional make-up to consider: I'm not sure I could handle sex w/o love. While I might become a sexually selfish person, the greater danger I think, is that I would quickly project love onto any sexual relationship (i.e., a *sure* recipe for heartbreak!).



Kittens, can you help me out? I'd really like your perspectives on sex, w/ and w/o explicit "I love you's" and, if it's not too difficult, I'd like to hear your actual experiences. When is too soon? How did you negotiate sex? Did you and your partner(s) have different expectations/understandings, and what did you do when those differences surfaced?



GG is One Clueless Kitty: how the heck did you even start having sex w/o an "I love you"? W/o a kiss? Or did you kiss anyway? Fake it until you make it? What???



Or do feel (as I have to this point), that it's absolutely imperative for a relationship to be built on love before sex is introduced into it? If so, however, do you distinguish a "friendship/trust" level of love, apart from a romantic one? (Ala the concept of "bed buddies")



Let me be clear, this is a thread for all sexually-active (or wannabe sexually-active!) Kittens, gay/straight/bi/trans, male as well as female, single, married (or "married"), monogamous or poly. With the mods kind oversight, I trust we can maturely find a sensitive and respectful level of explicitness necessary for this discussion.



I have other issues: a painful shyness for one. I know I need to get "out there" more (time to check out the "where did you meet your girl" thread, and the "singles posting"---again!). But these issues I have in my head---about when sex is and isn't appropriate---will go w/ me regardless, and I'd really love some fresh perspectives on it.



GG Thank you, and let the dance begin! Out



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& & (a poly group!)



You & your lover!

[dekalog]

Hey GG

I would be in - as they say - the polar opposite of your situation, and so I don't know if what I am about to say will be helpful in any way. None-the-less - here it goes.



I'm a gay woman, have known as long as I could make out that those lovely globes came with only women attached to them. I, however, have never 'been in love' - except perhaps my first when I was really young, but me thinks that was more of the 'puppy kinda a' luv'. I have had sex, lots and lots of sweaty sex, in lots of places, and several times with more than one person, but have never once uttered those frightening three words to someone. So, in answer to your questions - sex without love is possible, and really quite nice. There is kissing, but not that sweet kind I have read about, but more of a kind of I want you now kind of hot and heavy, or an exploring you are kinda neat kind.



I don't think from the sounds of things that you are looking for just sex, or a casual relationship - even if things 'are' unsatisfactory - (ps. lend yourself a hand afterall May is Masturbation Month here in Canada . You yourself said you want the "total package" - that means you want the love. I don't know how much experience you have or where you live, or what you'd be comfortable with , but there are lots of ways to meet women, (or men?).



If you are interested in casual sex, and hearing the personal experiences and the nitty gritty - e-mail me - and I'll tell you from my experience what it has been like. This is a weird place for me to talk about casual sex because it is through these two particular characters that I first started to think about what I was missing, and it has started me (slowly) on a journey towards perhaps looking for that kind of relationship.



Finally sex is always appropriate when those involved are into it.

[mscheckmate]

GG, the older I get, (you and I are about the same age) the more gray areas I see in terms of my own sexual standards. What I mean by that is this: my ideal is a monogamous relationship that includes frequent, passionate, intimate sex with someone I'm in love with, who is in love with me. Unfortunately, things don't always fall into place that nicely. Then what?



I've been with people, specifically guys, that I knew I wasn't in love with. But, I knew that I liked, respected, and trusted them. I knew that we communicated well enough to be able to negotiate birth control, safe sex, and our respective likes and dislikes. My personal opinion is that sex in such a situation is not necessarily immoral or sinful. Despite the absence of the being-in-love factor, these were positive, responsible, respectful experiences.



My current situation is problematic: a five and a half year relationship with someone with tremendous ambivalence and discomfort about her sexuality. And mine, for that matter. I was raised by parents who were very sex-positive. I learned that "nice girls do," and that women were supposed to enjoy sex, not just do it as a favor to their husbands. My gf, on the other hand, got the message that sex was dirty, sinful, trashy, low-class, etc. I even asked her point blank, "So, you think that I, my mother, my sisters, and my sister-in-law are trashy because we all like sex?" She admitted that she kind of did. Her view of sex, and her unwillingness to address it in therapy even though she knows that it's a problem in our relationship, has caused if not a major fissure, certainly a distance between us. I have never cheated on her in any way, shape or form, but I can't promise that that won't change. And, frankly, sometimes I wonder if she wouldn't be relieved if I did so.



And I have to say that if I did have a discreet, respectful, responsible affair, (and I do believe that such a thing can exist) I would have absolutely no problem walking into church the next morning. Life can be messy sometimes, and we do our best under the circumstances. I believe in God, and I am convinced that God doesn't turn His/Her back on people who have sex outside of a committed relationship, but is there to guide people to make right, respectful decisions in such situations. Just my opinion, of course.



eta: GG, I'm guessing that the town you live in is not the greatest place for meeting women. Any possibility of moving to a gayer area after you finish your doctorate?

It'll be the train, Walter, just the way you want it. Straight down the line.

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 5/11/03 12:34:34 am

[wa star]

GG,



First of all, I'm not really confortable even trying to give you an answer on this-- becuase it's not like I've done such a great job managing my own sex/love life. But you asked and I'll always try. I have a real open door policy about any sexual information questions.





Personally, I'd recommend dating leading to sex -- with or without love. You might get heart broken, but I'm betting the pain wouldn't be any worse than the pain you're feeling now.



Don't judge yourself any harder than you judge other folks. If a friend of yours went out dating and slept around a little, would you find it morally OK? Why be so #$#%&( hard on yourself?



Stop thinking so darn much! Just feel the love!

[Jennpurr]

GG,



I can't help you out much with your questions, my still being a virgin and all and at the age of 23. Make of that what you will.



I've been in situations where I could have lost my virginity, willing and un-willingly, for that matter, but I chose not to and am thankful and grateful for those decisions at this point in my life. I'm an old fashioned girl, I guess you could say. I want my first time to be with a woman I'm in love with, if possible.



I'm not against others having sex when they are not in love or just having casual sex, but it's not for me. It's not something I could do. Of course, I'm saying that now, but that very well could change in my future. I don't see it changing, but we never know, right?



Anyway. I think the most important thing for you, is to do what you are comfortable with and not let anyone pressure your feelings and opinions about sex, to you. It has to be your call.



Sorry I couldn't give you any advice.



Good luck, sweetie.



Jen

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Chiana: (after taking Nashdon pills) Yes, your honor, yes I have questions for the witness. Yes I do, oh, oh, I definitely do, oh I definitely, definitely do. Did I say I did, because I do.

[Still Waters Run Deep]

The old cliche *different strokes for different folks* springs to mind.



This might turn out to be the *un-burden yourself* thread as will as the *how you like it* thread.



GG, like the others who have replied to your heartfelt query I can only add my 10c from my own experiences.



Like you I am also in my 40's, and am a straight guy, currently single, the situation I have spent most my adult life in. I realised in my own mind at an early age that sex and love were not the same thing [although there are many out there who think that]. This compartmentalisation, is I suspect fairly common in most men and has clouded my judgement ever since. In essence, once the *newness* had worn off it became boring, a bit of a duty. Not a good state of affairs, if you are trying to hold a relationship together.



However, I suspect that most women [correct me if I'm wrong!] tend to put the two together, not neccessarily in a 'I'm having sex, therefore I'm in love' sort of way, but more 'I'm having sex, because I'm in love'. [although they may also be thinking the latter, but actually doing the former]



This leaves us guys [and gals too, for that matter] who enjoy sex, without the associated love/commitment/angst/whatever in a bit of a quandry. I'm scared of commitment. There, I've said it. Commitment scares me, I need my space. But this means 'going without' a great deal of the time. And when you live in a place as remote as I do, there just is'nt the population to bounce off, until you get what you want/need.



If you've made it this far I guess what I'm trying to say is that your mindset is what guides you, as Jenn said:



*do what you are comfortable with and not let anyone pressure your feelings and opinions about sex, to you. It has to be your call.*



If you feel like experimenting, then do so, but do'nt feel guilty about it. Just think of it as part of the voyage that is life.



Hey GG and Checkie, glad to say Hi! to you back over here!

-----------------------------------

love and kisses

Still Waters



..... *Happy to be Willowhand....well, would'nt you be?......

[kyraroc]

This deserves a more carefully thought out answer than the first one I typed. Sorry. I'll try again later.

Lost in Ecstacy

Edited by: kyraroc at: 5/11/03 4:09:48 am

[Mrs Vertigo]

My perspective on sex? If you want them and they want you – go for it. But then again, I'm completely promiscuous. And I'm also about 16 and half and an atheist who grew up in the most open of societies, so I really have very few things to answer to.



As for the sex=love thing… not really the way it's been for me. I did not have sex with the girl I used to be in love with because she never loved me *shrugs*. I only had sexual experiences with partners I was not in love with. I think that as a result of that, I have this pretty distinct separation between 'just sex' and sex within a romantic relationship.



I guess I could say I'm 'bed buddies' with the girl I went the furthest with. She lives quite far away and I don't see her often, but when we meet sparks fly. I'm not in love with her and she's not with me – we simply have a sort of chemistry. To me, it's more about mutual enjoyment. I have tons of respect and appreciation for her, but I'm not in love.



I see no harm in sex without love. To experience, it's actually pretty damn great. Surely it would be a whole different matter with a partner I loved, but I'm not going to play nun until he/she comes along.

My 2 cents: keep a dream-diary. Your brain is best uncensored.

[mscheckmate]

GG, my first reply was on the ranty side. Maybe I can chalk it up to having just come home from work and still being on that post-performance adrenaline rush. Or maybe I was just getting in touch with my inner cad.



What I should have said is this: you have to feel comfortable with what you're doing in a given situation. You, not anyone else, because your own feelings and perceptions are what count. If you're truly a person who has to have the love before the sex can happen, then maybe you wouldn't ever feel comfortable in a casual sex, or even a good-friend-sex relationship. I don't believe that your personal standards are going to doom you to a life of celibacy. I'm sure that there are a lot of women out there who would find you attractive, and who's to say that one of them might not turn out to be The One? (There just might not be enough of them in Albion. ) If you're shy, you might feel more comfortable going out and doing what you enjoy, but among lesbians, as opposed to finding someone to date right away. Eventually, a relationship might flow naturally from getting to know someone through a shared interest or activity, and you wouldn't feel pressured to make an instant good impression.



eta: SWoRDie!! Great to see you, Darlin'.

It'll be the train, Walter, just the way you want it. Straight down the line.

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 5/11/03 11:17:44 am

[Gatito Grande]

Wow: there's a lot here to address. So much, I won't try---not that I feel I have to. Please, everybody, feel free to "talk amongst yourselves" (that's my best Linda Richman---I'm getting verklepft! ) and not just to me. (Hey, we wanna know how to behave around each other if we ever have that *Kitten Orgy*, right? )



SWoRDie, hi! I saw you on another thread, and I almost said "hullo" then, mate!



It's great to see we have everyone from virgins to sluts here on the thread (Ya just can't pigeon-hole a Kitten)!



So many factors to consider when talking about attitudes towards sex: our ages, religious-backgrounds, nationalities, gender (cultural and bio---I know enough about trans stuff to know how much hormones make a difference), "history o' heartbreak", etc.



checkie, my ex was really "sex-negative" (or at least "sex mixed-up").* He would never admit that it had anything to do w/ our break-up, but I would argue otherwise. Good luck to you and the mrs. on that: communicate, communicate, Communicate! as I'm sure y'all know.



*Of all the times we "did it," I probably initiated it 95% of the time. I don't mind being a top (in fact, I prefer it), but it was hard on the ol' ego to never feel like an object of his urgent desire.



Well, speaking of "the ex": I'm the one who asked for "stories" of how sex begins, so I'll volunteer mine. It wasn't long after me and the ex (who I'll call "T") started dating, that we learned we were both virgins. Seeing as we met in seminary (oh, BTW, there's more on T & me at both the "Scary Religious" and "when did you know" threads), we also both knew something of our mutual religious backgrounds. Neither of us were as strict as the "you have to be married to do it" school, but I was where I was (needing to be "in love"), and he seemed OK w/ that. The early part of our dating life involved the usual (?) hand-holding, (fully-clothed) embracing and kissing. Things were going well.



We were apart over Winter Holidays, and then, wouldn't ya know it, there was a "war on." (i.e. the Gulf War, in '91). We reunited right after he got back (from Cuba) just before I got arrested protesting the war (this was a liberal seminary we were at, or couldn't you tell? ) Anyway, there was some tension (mainly on his part), and we put our relationship on hold for a couple of weeks, then started dating in earnest again. I believe we were now at the "make-out" stage of the relationship: starting to slide towards horizontal. We may have even started gettin nearly nekkid thereabouts. I think maybe I told him I was "starting to fall" (y'know, like "in love"). "Things were going well."



But . . . before I could really love him, I would have to trust him. And before I could trust him, I would have to *come out* to him (as bi). This I did (*major* gulp!!), after we'd been dating about 2 months. He was sort of confused, but seemed OK about it . . .



. . . and then broke up w/ me 5 days later. No, I think the better emoticon is A week after that, he told me he'd 1) been to his shrink, and been diagnosed w/ depression (and getting treatment for it), and 2) wanted to "try again" w/ me. I took him back. (In light of later events, ) Making-out resumed w/ new vigor, and I saw him in the buff (as he did me). Our semester ended, and being the romantics I guess we both were, we made travel plans to go away and "do the deed." (Hmmm, that doesn't sound *that* romantic, does it? ) We'd now been dating nearly 6 months (Hey, I was 29 and he nearly 27---if we hadn't been that much in a hurry before . . .) We exchanged "I love you's" (though initiated, as always, by me ) All together now: "Things were going well."



So, it's May of 1991 (damn this history is getting musty!), and we're in the romantic seaside town of Cape May, New Jersey. We'd brought the boombox w/ the "music for sex" tapes (I seem to remember a lot of Whitney Houston and Chaka Khan ), we had handfuls of condoms which the university health service was now kind enough to provide. Great tubefuls of KY . . . and well, still, ow! At least we were both mature enough to laugh about the ridiculousness of it all ("hung-up wallflower seminarians *finally* get it on!")



If not on that "romantic weekend" we were still nevertheless soon goin' at it w/ gusto and frequency. T was a good lover in those days, too: I was always clear about what got me off, and, w/ my instructions, he got pretty good at it! Things were going well and would continue, for the next six years or so---straight through, and even after, the "I do" stage . . .



Looking back, beyond the pure nostalgia, I am struck by the predictability of it all: we dated six months, and then did it. If someone had asked me, from say, age 17 on, when I *thought* I would have sex w/ someone, that's exactly the scenario I would have described (though if I'd been warned it wouldn't be for another *12 years*, I might have done something rash: either a one-night stand, or suicide! ).



The fact that it was so predictable---that we weren't tearing each other's clothes off after a date or two, a kiss or three---says something to me about the *relative* lack of passion there: though whether it was me, him or the combination of the two of us, I'm really not sure. (Bah, I think it was him---or the fact that T *was* a him and not a her. Did I mention that I was *just about ready to write off the het side of my "bi-ness"* at the time we started dating??? )



W/ few exceptions, I enjoyed sex w/ T---but as part of the relationship---notsomuch purely for its own hot-wet-messy merits. I'm not sure how I feel about that: it does kind of go to what (i.e., the stereotype) SWoRDie was talking about. And upholding a stereotype of female behavior is about the last thing I wanna do! At the same time, it does still pretty much go w/ my moral framework (for better or worse).



Well, that's enough of my skeletons (boners?! Yes, I'm *awful*! ) dug up for now. C'mon, Kittens, let's hear some war stories!



GG I mean, if I can admit all this sh*t, it doesn't make any of *your* pasts sound so bad, now does it? Out

[kyraroc]

Hey, GG. OK, let me give this another shot.



So, my background - I'm 31 years old, bisexual, raised in a very sex-positive/sex-friendly family. I'm culturally Jewish, and religiously agnostic, perhaps leaning slightly towards atheism. I've had sex both within the context of a committed relationship with people I loved, and in a more casual manner with people whom I liked. I have had sex with both men and women, and have been in monogamous, non-monogamous, and polyamourous relationships. I enjoy both vanilla sex and a variety of what are probably reaonably common kinks. I was married for about four years, and although that was a disaster, as I was rather horribly abused, I have nothing against marriage and would consider doing it again. I have never had a one night stand, although I have had sex with someone the first day I met them. For some reason, I almost invariably coincidentally end up with bisexual violinists. Go figure.



So, on to the questions you raised -



"When is too soon?"



I don't really think there is such a thing as a specific time which is "too soon". I think it varies from person to person - and couple to couple - where the comfort zone is. I guess if someone feels they're being dragged into it before they're really ready, that's too soon.



"How did you negotiate sex?"



. . . Not sure exactly what you mean by this. Care to clarify?



"Did you and your partner(s) have different expectations/understandings, and what did you do when those differences surfaced?"



Well, this has certainly happened to me, most memorably when I was married . . . our expectations differed in bed by quite a bit (my spouse, who had been sexually and physically abused as a child, didn't like to be touch or be touched all that much) and our understandings about sexual fidelity within a marriage also differed - namely, could we sleep with whoever we wanted whenever we wanted (not my view), or would it have been nice to ask the person you're, you know, married to how they felt about it before doing so (my view.) Which isn't to say, by the way, that I was right and they were wrong . . . just that it was something that really should have been talked about and worked out before we got married. In later relationships, I've prevented the "understanding of fidelity" problem my making sure that the subject has been talked about beforehand, so that everyone is very clear on whether or not the relationship is monogamous and exactly what is meant by both people if it isn't. Communication = good. As for the problem of what was expected in bed, I learned to adjust to the needs of my partner, a skill which has served me well later, especially now that I have a partner who's willing to do the same in return.



"How the heck did you even start having sex w/o an "I love you"? W/o a kiss? Or did you kiss anyway? Fake it until you make it? What???"



Um, usually there was kissing beforehand. In general, in my experience, there were mild physical overtures first (snuggling, or similar), to sort of "test the waters" - if you put your arm around someone, and they don't ask you to remove it, that's a sign that further inquiries can, at least, be made politely. Sometimes, this goes further before anything is actually said, to the point of kissing etc., if the signals are clear enough on both sides that this is welcome. Usually, though, at some point, someone asks something along the lines of, "Would you like to have sex?", there's often some discussion of what everyone is in it for first (fun, potential relationship, or whatever), and then, er, off we go. Never had to "fake it".



"Or do [you] feel (as I have to this point), that it's absolutely imperative for a relationship to be built on love before sex is introduced into it?"



Nah. As a general rule, though, I wouldn't have sex with anyone I wouldn't want as a friend. I do consider it an intimacy, and it is tied up in all sort of social and emotional issues, so I find it best with people I trust.



--- KR

Lost in Ecstacy

[slayer747]

sex? hmmm... i haven't had any experience with it actually (i'm 19) however, i guess my opinion about it is very similar with yours, GG. i know that i will only engage in it with a person that i love, or, at least with a person i know i could fall in lve with. as for the sex=sin part. i think God understands us more than anyone, and we all have valid reasons why people have sex, and if your reason is valid enough according to your own standards, then i know He'll get it too. He created sex and it is a part of our being human. just do it for the right reasons.



well, that's my 2 cents worth.

part of forever is better than none

[darkmagicwillow]

GG, I understand where you're coming from; love is a requirement for sex for me. I share your shyness and I've been moving frequently in recent years.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 7/16/03 3:04 pm

[Blue Athame 1]

Ahhh....my favorite subject. I can never resist the opportunity to talk about sex. This is due to the isolation we feel around open discussion in our society. We get all kinds of sexualized images and messages but when you get down to it...few want to talk openly and freely about it. I love to talk about it...so much so that this will probably take more then 1 sitting.



Something happened to me in my life that I have always puzzled about. I am shy...painfully so, I also have a very intense emotional makeup...highly sensitized to those around me and in the world in general. Yet the one place I am truly confident is sexually. I love sex. I started very young...at about 11 (it was oral sex...wow)*just a note there was no abuse or anything involved here...I was just quite precousious*...my partner was 13. I have been consistently sexually active ever since. Males/females, casual, love, all manner and position, place and situation, more then one person...you name it I have probably tried it. For some reason I don't feel any inhibition about this. This is not to say that I am some kind of nympho, I have had long standing monog. relationships. I believe strongly in responsible and safe sex, consensual sex, and for the sake of arguement here what I will call, causual sex and relational (love) sex.



How am I doing so far...you still with me? So here I am now...I am 42. I have done a lot of living and loving in those years. Early on when I was an adolescent I dealt with mostly males. My issue there was the sex was okay...you know physical...satisfying..ah but no love. I broke a lot of hearts. Meanwhile, my love was for my the females around me and they broke my heart...I hadnt brought it all together yet. Finally in college I got it right. Fell in love and had sex with a woman....bang zoom to the moon....yipppeee!!!! Now that worked. I began to understand that I needed the relationship to complete it for me. That is not to say I havent had more casual sex. I since the beginning have not gone very long without sex...as most of my lovers tell me, I have a pretty high idle...I run pretty hot most of the time, actually I dont think I have never said no...I mean in a relationship. I do have some self control . So on the casual end...I have had my share...it is okay, but...it is the sex with love that is the true apex...it is true...it is the meeting of the emotional, with the psychological, with the physical. We are blessed as members of the animal kingdom to be able to do this...wow..and it is so cool when it happens.



I think sex is part of our celebration of living. It is that place where we can actually connect intimately with ourselves and with another. Most of us seek this love, this understanding and when it happens...it is profound. It is a good and important, normal and natural quest. We all want it... at least the healthy among us (speaking as a professional now)...and most of us seek it. We are all also to varying degrees sexual beings. We need and long for physical contact and connectedness...this is okay. Sometimes it is good just to practice in our physical bodies. I prefer to have sex in a love relationship. I have had sex outside of one as well. It is okay. I find that I know when it is right...not by any hard and fast rule...but by feeling...it is something you feel, then know. It is okay to follow that as long as you are in a safe situation and feel safe with the person you are with...being at a caring place helps...but casual and free sex can be quite charged and interesting. Use good sense...be respectful...and always, always expect the same.



You should be unhappy with your situation...your feelings should push you into seeking out better situations for yourself...you are young and vital and alive and I suspect have much to offer. I would practice first...not necessarily look for love. Love tends to show up when you are not looking anyway. I would work just on thinking of yourself and feeling sexy. Sexy is a state of mind. I am working on that now for example...my sexy at 42 is very different then my sexy at 21...but I am still sexy, even though my breasts seem anxious to make friends with my belly button. Even though I found a grey hair in my eyebrow yesterday...even though. Sexual beings are whole beings...it is not just your body. It is not just your head. It is not just your heart..it is all of you.



I have probably gone on enough for this sitting. I am sure I will think of more to say later. Please feel free to ask if you have questions...I am open and have no problems discussing any of this...even the inimate details and how toos. It is okay.



I applaud and respect you for you for being brave enough to ask. Brava!



Athame.

[wa star]

GG,



I've been thinking about a reply for 2 days.... my work is really that boring (and sexual ethics is a that good of a topic)





First of all, I'm a person who has the big problem of being really sexually turned on by things that aren't really good for the rest of my life. I really like guys, leather and all the *drugs, sex and rockroll* danger stuff that comes with it. But this isn't much help for long term stable mental health.



It isn't erotic, but I'm a nester kind of person who needs a high degree of commitment, family support and non-sexual snuggling that can't be found in bars with names like *cuffs*.



So I'm married to a wonderful women who treats me better than anyone else has-- I have a house, a garden, my own friends and money, a willing and adveturesome sex partner....



....but it's always lacking in the sex department because it lacks any real danger. But the rest of my life hates danger.....





Quote



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Looking back, beyond the pure nostalgia, I am struck by the predictability of it all: we dated six months, and then did it. If someone had asked me, from say, age 17 on, when I *thought* I would have sex w/ someone, that's exactly the scenario I would have described ......



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





GG-- I think all mating/dating games are this *predicable*. No matter if I go to the local Baptist wensday night singles group or if I walk into my local leather bar and tear open a condom with my teeth... the outcome isn't hard to figure out....



Be careful with the word *passion*--- becuase of your upbringing and personality, your brand of passion my not match up to the *passion* of fine W/T fanfic smutt...





hopefully, we all find some balance here.

[Gatito Grande]

Greetings, sexethicists! I kinda feel like I should play host to this thread. Picture me looking a little like Ewan MacGregor in "Down with Love," wheeling out a cocktail cart (Shaken or stirred? Nah, I don't really look like that---my hair is at "Hire that grrl!" length---but a playboi can dream, can't s/he?)



So Howdy! dekalog, mscheckmate, wa star, Jennpurr, Still Waters Run Deep, kyraroc, Mrs Vertigo, slayer747, darkmagicwillow, and Blue Athame 1! Any other Kittens who want to join us in the "sex playpen" please hop on in!



El Gatito Suave thanks you all for your comments and perspectives---Remember, please feel free to talk to each other and not just to me.



dekalog said

Quote:

---

I don't think from the sounds of things that you are looking for just sex, or a casual relationship - even if things 'are' unsatisfactory - (ps. lend yourself a hand afterall May is Masturbation Month here in Canada

---

Thanks, d, I'm only too aware, as I indicated that ("May is Masturbation Month") on another thread. (Heck, I even signed one of my posts "GG The Dark Master-Ba***" : if idle hands are the devil's playground, what does that make my busy ones? )



That raised a couple of other issues for me, first, casual sex as masturbation. I don't mean "sex as mutual masturbation": among all the infinite varieties of sex, why the heck not? No, I mean that, w/ some people (me perhaps?), to engage in casual sex (w/o love, or at least committed friendship) would be to use other human beings simply as organic sex toys.



Well, what's wrong w/ that (if it's all consensual)? Nothing at all . . . if you're into being w/ other people that way. Which brings me to issue number 2: the place of temperment (specifically, introversion vs. extroversion) in attitudes towards sex.



As you may have guessed (from my shyness description), I am an introvert: I usually find it *draining* to be around people for any extended period of time (the more people---unless alone in a crowd---and the longer the time I'm around them, the more draining it is for me).* The one thing that mitigates (but only in part) this enervating quality that people have on me, is the emotional compensation of true intimacy: being with someone and feeling total love and trust (which I used to have w/ my spouse, and now have *only* w/ my best friend, who is over 2000 miles away from me).



*And uncoincidentally, it gives me all the makings of an internet junkie!.



With my psychological make-up (introversion), masturbating w/ another person = a big ol' why??? Even if they were/became as talented as "Righty" (or even "Lefty"!), it still leaves me feeling kinda trapped. At best, I would be like Faith w/ Xander in The Zeppo: "That was great" :::slam!::: Nah, there's just no awkward silences w/ Good Ol' Righty! >



But . . . I just can't snuggle w/ Righty. Discuss the events of the day. Kvetch about Dubya (or my mother). Exchange heart-stopping, soul-sizzlin' kisses! Cry on her shoulder (both & ). A smile like Aly's . . . (What were you saying about being spoiled by fanfic, wa star? )



GG Yup, still want the Total Package . . . Out

Edited by: BytrSuite at: 5/13/03 4:28:02 pm

[mscheckmate]

I'm not sure that introverts and extroverts can be pigeon-holed into typical sexual behaviors. People who are basically extroverts can totally freeze up when they get horizontal. I've seen it happen. And people who are painfully shy can be completely uninhibited sexually. For example, I've stated in another thread that I can be extremely introverted. Yet I'm quite the opposite in bed. I'm very much my mother's daughter in that sense, and in our case, I think the joker in the deck could be that we're both sensation junkies. Despite quiet, sometimes serious demeanors, we live life large. Food, fast cars, wicked humor, thrill rides, art, music, and, well, sex. It's all about regarding life as a banquet of sight, smell, taste, and feeling. Now, I don't think that good old Mom has slept around, but that's probably due to her having come of age in the 50s. She certainly encouraged her daughters to "live a little, " and she was clearly talking about sex.



Personally, I'm not capable of jumping into bed with just anyone. For me, there has to be at least a friendship, and a fairly high level of intimacy and trust between us. But, as my dad said, "Sex is fun." And I like fun. On the other hand (bad pun here) I've never been much for masturbation. I think it's a great way to get to know your own body, so that you can tell your partner exactly what you'd like him or her to do for you. But sex for me is a contact sport. So, in my case, introversion can cause problems in meeting people or dating, but doesn't ultimately affect my own sexuality.



Oooh. File all that under "too much information." (Sorry, Mom.)

It'll be the train, Walter, just the way you want it. Straight down the line.

[Gatito Grande]

checkie, I think you misunderstand me. I didn't mean to imply that introverts couldn't be crazed hyenas in the sack (or alley, or bathroom stall, etc. etc.!). But if sex is a contact sport, then you have to be somewhere to meet for the contact (eating out, or eating in, as it were! ).



Speaking only for my form of introversion (?), I find it difficult to be around people in the flesh (no matter how good it might taste!). My experience w/ relational sexual contact is limited---a few other make-out dates other than my spouse, and that's it---but my hunch is, once I got to the "do it" phase, my introversion would in no way be a hang-up. It's just *getting to that phase* (especially if I insist on something like an "I love you" in the process) which is so difficult for me.



GG Y'know it occurs to me, that if I had $$$$ to fly anywhere at will, cyber-dating (as a prelude to face-to-face . . . well, skin-to-skin contact!) would really be ideal for Shy Lil' me. Otherwise, I'm scanning the various kinds of dating web-sites, w/ the "100 miles or less" filter on. Out

[mscheckmate]

GG, yes, I did. My very bad. (Must wait to reply until I have more time to read carefully.) But I do tend to ponder sometimes why someone like me, who can be almost pathologically shy at times, can also be so devoid of self-consciousness at other times; so, I might have gone off on that tangent anyway, given the slightest opportunity.



Have you ever thought of working on the shyness? I understand that some of us are naturally more introverted than others, and that's fine. The world needs what introverts have to offer. But when shyness gets in the way of living a full life, maybe it's time to look at ways to overcome it, at least to the point where it doesn't hold you back socially or professionally.

It'll be the train, Walter, just the way you want it. Straight down the line.

[LostWithoutTara]

Introversion and shyness... I know that only too well. I'm not S4 Tara-shy now but up until a couple of years ago I was. The movement away from a contained, local school environment to a college one really aided me in pretty much every way.



But I'm still very shy and introverted. But it doesn't really bother me. I'm not afraid to talk to people any more, so I suppose as long as shyness doesn't inhibit social activity to that extent it's okay. I kinda prefer being more to myself. When people first meet me they never really have an opinion of me, positive or negative (I think people's favourite word to describe me at first is 'nice'). But, happily for me, once people get to know me, they tend to like me. I can't talk about myself much face-to-face, but my lack of talkiness means that I've learnt to listen.



Ironically, my best friend is incredibly extroverted and confident - I suppose her qualities have helped me grow out of my shell somewhat.



Anyway, onto the sex part. I have no problem with the idea of free love, but I can't envisage myself ever having a sexual relationship with anyone I didn't love. I've always thought that part of the pleasurableness of sex is getting to know someone, to care about them and know that they care about you. Sex is the physical extension of that - sharing your body with someone in order to grant them pleasure, and that's why I can't see myself doing it with someone I don't love. But then again, I'm kinda old-fashioned - but proud of it!

[sprhrgrl]

Gatito Grande, I'm in a situation somewhat the same but not really, if you know what I mean. . . And being that this seems like a good place for proper discussion of things that are confusing and such, I'm going to post on this thread. I hope you don't mind. . .



My girlfriend and I have been going together for nearly two years now. It's a long distance relationship, but we see eachother occasionally. As our relationship has progressed it's moved into a sexual place, which has led to confusion.



This girl is my sex, essentially. It's a relationship of firsts, physically. I was her first kiss, when she was eighteen, and she was my first lover.



I've always been a pro-sex girl. I'm very open about my sexuality. . . I flirt a lot and make out with people. As our sexual relationship develops, I've found myself trying to move into a polyamorous place, but I'm not sure what my motivation is. I'm unsure whether it comes from lonliness, as she's so far away, or just fear of inadequecy. My girl and I have trouble sometimes, for various reasons, and I'm at a point sometimes where I wish I'd been chickenhawked and "shown the ropes," if you will.



So I live with the fear that if I remain just with her, I'll be missing something. . . And that it won't ever be right. But she's got more hangups sexually than I do, and. . .



Auggh, I don't know. I think I just needed to type it out for it to make more sense in my head.

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everythin

racism=sexism=homophobia

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. – Gloria Steinem

[mscheckmate]

sprhrgrl, have you and your gf talked about this? If she's uncomfortable or unresponsive, there may be something going on with her that has nothing to do with you. Religious issues, internalized homophobia, past abuse, inability to trust, anger at one's partner, etc., etc., can wreak havoc on a person's sex life. Also, a lot of medications have what are euphemistically termed "sexual side effects." It sounds like you two need to sit down, preferably while you're fully clothed, and talk about sex. Start by asking each other about your expectations, likes and dislikes, but be prepared to go into deeper issues like personal histories and other non-sexual conflicts within your relationship. And be sure to talk about the long-distance factor. One of you may be expecting instant passion as soon as you see each other, while the other person may need more time to get re-acquainted before feeling up to being intimate.



I'm also in a LDR. My e-mail addy is on my profile; if you'd ever like to talk privately, feel free to drop me an e-mail.

It'll be the train, Walter, just the way you want it. Straight down the line.

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 5/19/03 6:51:01 pm

[sprhrgrl]

Thanks, mscheckmate. . . Your ideas are spot-on, unfortunately we've tried to have this conversation, several times. I'm thinking our most recent one has worked - she's going to look into therapy, I think. I just wish we were together more and thus had more time/means to attempt to solve it (couples therapy and the like). . .

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everythin

racism=sexism=homophobia

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. – Gloria Steinem

[sprhrgrl]

This is pretty much all a response for Big Kitten from sprhrgrl like superherogrrl pronounced spurgle, though.



The phrase "she is my sex" lives in the part of my head that writes poetry. I've mentioned it to her, and the issue, and she feels the same way. Anyone who knows me will see that she is more than just sex to me, as she is. . . She's my girl. And that's the greatest thing ever.



I've pulled back on the issue of polyamory because it is obvious that she's not ready for that. We thought that we were, but we've since realized otherwise. I'm not so much fearing a polyamorous relationship as much as my motivations toward it, though. . .



Regarding "mismatch in [our] sexualities," it's more like in most areas they're too matched. We're both completely inexperienced and that's become an issue for us. At least for me.



And again, we've tried to talk it out. We've been talking things out for two years, and I know we'll work through this. I was just looking for kittenriffic advice. And yes (grin), we will have to move. We're just in school in different places. Grad school, maybe, but that's a ways a way.



And "somewhat the same but not really?" Yeeeeah, that it was sexual-inexperience based.

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

racism=sexism=homophobia

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

[Gatito Grande]

My bad, sprhrgrl (I swear, I'm just like Dubya, always wanting to give everybody nicknames!), and please, call me "GG".*



Ah, yes, stuck in differing grad schools: that one I know. Actually, I was stuck in grad school when the ex (in his pre-ex Main Squeeze dayz) had graduated and gotten a job elsewhere. Did the long distance, see each other every other weekend thing for two years (w/ summers together, though---can you two swing that?).



I have to say, I'm still a little mystified about the "We're both completely inexperienced" thang. To me, that says you're both in a position (as it were!) to do your sexual exploring together, w/o a lot of preconceived notions ("I only do vanilla!" "I only do kink!"). Or do you mean that there are things you've heard about---that you'd like to try---that she doesn't? Maybe there are ways to "baby step" her into the new? (E.g. if she thinks it's invasive, try a smaller one! ) Ultimately, the two greatest experts on your sex-lives are the two of you, and no "chickenhawk" or Dr. Ruth (I'm probably dating myself there: who's the the sex guru du jour now?) can substitute for Good Ol' Trial and Error (but hey, errors can be fun too! )





Uh-oh, you caught me acting like, well, the sex guru du jour despite my woeful lack of experience. Good thing I have such a stimulating imagination!





GG All trussed up, and no one to (biblically) "know" . . . Out





*Actually, I like to translate "Gatito Grande" as Little Big Kat cuz it's more swingin'!!

(I'm into this major "swingin" fixation these days . . . must be due to hearing from y'all who are into polyamory! )

[mscheckmate]

"E.g., if she thinks it's invasive, try a smaller one!"



Now that most of the coffee I just snorted all over the keyboard has been cleaned up.....



sprhrgrl, I'm with GG. (Well, not literally. Just in agreement.) I think experience can be highly overrated. If someone is communicative, comfortable with her body and yours, patient, and doesn't take the whole process too seriously, inexperience won't matter; whether or not the earth moves at first, making love will be a playful, intimate bonding time. All of this communication and experimentation and laughter and trust will strengthen your relationship.



Good luck to you and the gf as you work this out. It sounds as though she's willing to consider dealing with her issues, and that's a big step for a lot of people.



eta: swinger? now, how could a woman who looks like she could be manning the phone bank at Focus on the Family be a swinger?

It'll be the train, Walter, just the way you want it. Straight down the line.

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 5/20/03 8:50:52 am

[LostWithoutTara]

Wow. That's quite an eye-opening article. It's such a shame that so many teens feel that they *have* to have sex, and even worse is the amount of teens w/ drugs and consequently unprotected sex. Urgh.



What happened to good old romance and love? I sometimes wonder if these ideals are simply dead or insignificant within today's society.

[Mrs Vertigo]

Alright, this is the sexual ethics thread, right? Well, I've an ethic problem… and I need kitten advice! HELP!



So goes the tale:

Last night I got completely smashed in a Lag Ba'omer party. At that party I met this girl who rides with me on the school bus every day. We're like, chatting buddies or morning-buddies or something. Anyway, like me she drank a whole hell of a lot, and the conversation turned into this banter/tease thing… (she called me 'wife' and I called her 'darling'). She seemed pretty interested, so I made a move, and pretty soon I was seriously nuzzling her. Now, that's when things start to get fuzzy. She made it clear she didn't want me to stop, but also that she didn't really want, well, anything… making a long story short, after an hour or two of serious seduction on my side she asked me to come to the side with her. We found ourselves a privet spot, and things got, well, you can guess how things got . Then in the middle she suddenly stops me, and tells me that she "can't do this" and that she's not gay. I back off, we get dressed, talk for a while, promise each other we're not sorry about what happened and then go back to the party.



Now… well, I don't know WHAT to feel about that. She's a great gal, and being with her felt fabulous. But what if I did something to her she didn't really want me to do, considering how she's straight and all? Don't get me wrong, she was very willing – but what if the morning after she felt like crap about it? I don't want to think I used her or anything .



**Edited to add: oh dear. Look at that:

Quote:

---

_More than eight in 10 teens say that a lot or some people their age drink or use drugs before having sex.



About a quarter said that alcohol or drugs had influenced their decision to do something sexual at least once.

---

My 2 cents: keep a dream-diary. Your brain is best uncensored.

Edited by: Mrs Vertigo at: 5/20/03 10:45:38 am

[Gatito Grande]

Gee, Mrs V, I don't know what to say that you may not have deduced from the "overconsumption of intoxicants equals poor sexual choices" story. But I know you're young: ya live, ya learn (ya hope she doesn't make a stink about this).



W/o dragging in a lot of socio-political issues (that's what my rants on the War/Politics Thread are for), do you think the two of you might be feeling the effects of "Live for today, tomorrow we might get blowed up?" I imagine a ton of poor sexual decisions were made on 9/11-12/01, and not just in New York and DC. I can't imagine what it's like to live w/ that kind of strain constantly, as you do Israel MV, and especially the last few days.



So GG, for one, is gonna give you a pass. It doesn't sound like anybody coerced anybody, and you two can, uh, soberly go about your business---whether or not that includes any future sexual hijinks (don't get your hopes up, kiddo). Say your mea culpas (figuratively speaking) and the all important mantra "When I get drunk, stupidity ensues." And drink lots of water . . . you'll feel better (and smarter) soon.



GG Sistahs and brothas, wanna step up and console Mrs V w/ your "You wouldn't believe the stupid sh*t I did (and the other stupid drunks I "did"!) when I was drunk" stories? Haven't we all been there? Oh, *you have too!* Out







ETA: Nice to see ya, bzengo! Thanks for the link. Incidentally, NPR's "Talk of the Nation" show is going to discuss this story in about 10 minutes (3PM EDT) . . . just before they discuss the "End of Buffy".



ETA, again: OK, checkie, what's with

Quote:

---

swinger? now, how could a woman who looks like she could be manning the phone bank at Focus on the Family be a swinger?

---

??? Take it back, take it back! (Do you know something that I don't know---like you knowing what I look like when I didn't know you knew what I looked like? Y'know? )

Or is that a reference to my *sexxxy androgyny*: "woman who looks like she could be manning"?

Re FotF: I'm deeply committed to nonviolence, but I have a strong hunch that James Dobson could test me!

Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 5/20/03 3:21:17 pm

[wa star]

First of all, thanks for the article bzengo-- I read it today in the paper but didn't even think about posting it here.





Ms. Vertigo,



Sheesh, You've gotten yourself in a jam, haven't you? Not that any of it is really your fault. You where respectful and honest about what happened, and that's all anybody could really ask for.





Getting drunk makes people do crazy things. Shit, living in Israel makes people do crazy things. I wouldn't bother thinking about this too much.



I'd go out and buy a card for the girl-- just to say you're sorry, that you were outta line (you weren't but telling her that isn't a bad idea) and if there is anyway to still be friends after this?



I'm guessing that she's the one really questioning this, really feeling mixed up and in pain over this. Try to be helpful and if she avoids you or even hates you-- let it slide. It has nothing to do with you anyhow.



A couple of times in my life, I've drank and flurted with lovers and led them down the Party Nekkid! path, only to chicken out at the last minute. It happens....