The Scary "Let's Talk About Religion" Thread

[La]

Okay, since there seemed to be some interest in a thread like this in the Cute webjunk: What Wiccan Are You? thread, I thought that it would be a fun, interesting thread to have.



So this is the place where you can feel free to talk about what you believe or don't believe, how you might practice or worship -- anything you want to share. If you'd like to talk about being gay and religious or about different religions' views on homosexuality, this would be a great place too. (There has already been talk about this in the Coming Out Issues thread.)



Of course, this can be a touchy subject, so just like in the War/Politics Thread, it's important to be respectful of each other and of different beliefs. The guidelines I've included here are very similar (in fact, some might say I plagiarized ) to the ones in the War/Politics Thread, but if anyone feels that something else should be included, please say so and the mods or I can change them if necessary.



Guidelines:



--No name-calling whatsoever.

--Do not criticize others for holding a different opinion/belief.

--It's great if you want to ask questions about someone else's tradition, but if someone is uncomfortable answering a question, they can just say that they are, and this will be respected.

--Your post can be edited or removed at any time, if you cross the line.





I'll start off by being brave and talking about my own beliefs/religion.



I was raised Catholic and forced by my mother (my dad's Episcopalian and never went to church) to go to CCD (religious education) for 8 years and to church every Sunday morning until I was almost 19 when my mom finally gave up. By the time I was 11 or 12 I was really questioning whether I could really believe in the Catholic idea of a personal God. I made my mom upset by calling myself atheist and saying things like "I swear to the non-existant God ..." Then I started buying a lot of books from the "New Age" section of the bookstore about Wicca and Witchcraft and spent the next 6 or 7 years sort of calling myself Wiccan. But I didn't even believe in the idea of the Goddess because I just couldn't accept that there was any one being or even more than one being out there watching over us and interfering in our lives. So I started just calling myself agnostic or pagan. Finally, when I was 20 or 21, I was studying in Italy and Germany for a year and for the first time, I had a lot of time to myself to really think about my beliefs. Over the last 4 years, I've discovered Unitarian Universalism, and have developed my own beliefs that feel right to me. I'm always changing things or expanding on my own personal theology and I love it. I tend to call myself a Buddhist Pagan Unitarian (or a Pagan Buddhist Unitarian, depending on my mood).



Specifically, I believe that there is an energy or spirit (a "force" if you want ) that is in absolutely everything on this planet (and very likely beyond). I believe in reincarnation in that I think that when we die, this energy that is of a specific type unique to each being goes to where it is needed the most - a tree, a rock, another human... I believe that the deeds we do in life affect this energy so that it is constantly changing and improving, or not. The more positive someone's energy when they die, the more positive their next incarnation will be. I think that every thing on earth has the same value so it is not lower if you're "reborn" as a frog instead of a human. Of course, I'm often changing and tweaking these beliefs, and I could go into more detail about supernatural events or the "why" of things, but maybe in another post.



As far as worship goes, I enjoy being in nature, and I go to Unitarian Church some Sundays, as well as being the youth group advisor at my church. I enjoy being part of a community that will respect my beliefs and not make me conform to only one thing. I strive to be positive and compassionate towards others because that makes me happy, and I like being happy. I think that the reason we are alive is to enjoy our time(s) on earth, which means doing things that make you happy.



I like religion, I think it's really interesting and have thought about becoming a Unitarian minister, and maybe I will some day, but right now I'm at divinity school getting my Master of Theological Studies and planning to go to culinary school for baking and pastry arts afterwards. For me, baking can be a very spiritual experience! Maybe later I'll post about all my thoughts on food in religion and food ritual (to be an independent study next semester in which I'll try to have my final project be a cookbook)



Okay, I'm done, your turn.

~La



What is the difference between a drunk and a stoner?

The drunk will drive through a stop sign while the stoner will wait for it to turn green.

[Gatito Grande]

Hail to Thee, La (bravely stepping into the lion's den, as it were).



First off, I couldn't help but laugh (in a cringing kind of way) at

Quote:

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(my dad's Episcopalian and never went to church)

---

It reminds me of this newsstory I read about somebody sometime (memory's having a senior moment here), that had the immortal lines "[So-and-so's] parents raised [him or her] Episcopalian, but the child was spiritual."



Well, some of us Episcopalians go to church, and even like to think of ourselves as "spiritual." (Bob, are you there? Help me out!)



For all the shite associated w/ my religion (esp. in the N. American culture), I'm still honored to be called a Christian, for the simple reason that (in my view) my faith looks at Self-Sacrificing Love . . . and says "That's God."



GG There's this kewl stuff about Eating God, too. Out

[La]

hehe, well, my dad told me once that he used to go to church when he was younger, but the priest always preached (does anyone else want to say "praught" instead of "preached"?) about hell and damnation and he didn't like that, so he stopped going. I think he came to Catholic mass with us on Christmas a couple times when I was younger ...

~La



What is the difference between a drunk and a stoner?

The drunk will drive through a stop sign while the stoner will wait for it to turn green.

[The Angry Lion]

oddly Im a secular humanist in my outlook but I dig pagan spirituality and rituals but I donrt belong to any coven or tradition what not, in my opinion the gods represent aspects of the psyche. Im also very in to astrology and numerology, my opinions on religion as a whole, beliefs should be private not forced on to others or permeated in culture and polity

tomorrow is now today

Edited by: The Angry Lion at: 5/1/03 10:58:19 pm

[Still Waters Run Deep]

Ah, religion.



I suppose I'm a bit of a nihilist when it comes to this subject, in that I have always been of the opinion that religion [in all it's organised forms] has been responsible for much of the woes of humanity for millenia [or at least unscrupulous men hiding behind the respectable veneer of religion].



When it comes to hypocrisy, I think that the christian-judaism ethic just about takes the biscuit. Islam does'nt even come close in comparison.



So, like Angry Lion, I consider myself a secular humanist. I don't believe in God, but I do believe in the basic humanist message that Christ espounded. I also believe that the western world is far too materialistic and needs less greed and more spirituality, but how to achieve this without falling into the trap of sectarianism or organised religion is something I've yet to work out for myself.



Hmm, I wonder if I've just thrown a gas canister onto an open fire.

-----------------------------------

love and kisses

Still Waters



..... *Happy to be Willowhand....well, would'nt you be?......

[justin]

This is an interesting thread.



My parents are both devoutly agnostic and they never really taught us about religion because they wanted us to find our own beliefs without any influence from them. The result of this is that my sister is a Hari Krishnan and I'm a Wiccan.



I got into Wicca becuase for some time I'd been growing more and more curious about what witch craft actually was (since I only really knew what it wasn't) and then I started hearing the word Wicca being mentioned a lot and eventually I bought the book To Ride A Silver Broomstick by Silver Ravenwolf. It was reading that that made me realise how well Wicca fit in with my own beliefs.

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

[AmbersSecretAdmirer]

And here comes the extremist. Not really, but my religious views are pretty unshakeable.



I agree that religion has been the cause of much of the worlds troubles. I like the line that Robert De Niro says in "Angel Heart"



"There's just enough relgion in the world to make men hate one another but not enough to make them love"



My personal belief is simply this. People should do good for good's sake. Not for the reward of a heavenly afterlife, not for the fear of hell for not doing good things. But because doing good and being decent and kind and respectful of others is the right thing to do. And I just realised my stance is pretty much Angel's epiphany, but that's a coincidence, but a happy one.



That's my religious stance. I don't follow any God or religious doctrine and only have problems with religious people when they try and force their views on others or claim that their beliefs are purer than someone else's.



It's time to stop looking for some otherworldly force to "save" us. It's time for us to take responsibility in this world and save each other, with love and respect. I reckon if there is a God, he might just be waiting for the world to sort itself out before he makes his move.



Peace to all!! There is a world of love and happiness to be found if we open our hearts and minds to the possibilities. Every door we close is a part of our own lives we lay waste to.

[Mrs Vertigo]

Thanks for the thread, La! I really was considering starting one of those… but like you said, it's the big scary one.



Ok… *sighs* I dislike religion. I know that's a pretty harsh statement to make, but I do. Though that is not to say I dislike anyone who's religious. I think my biggest issue with religion is that I don't understand it or why someone would practice it.



I was raised a secular Jew. My mother is an Atheist and I suspect my father is too, but I've not spoken to him in a while. However, my mother's a Judaica artist – her living is Jewish art. So while I wasn’t brought up to believe in Judaism, I do know it pretty thoroughly. I was never told as a kid whether there was a God or not, but rather asked if I thought there was one. 'Round the age of 6 I started answering 'no' to that question.



What I dislike about religion is the way people give it credit for human morality. That because religion evolved, morals evolved. I think it was the other way around. I think humans developed morals because they're necessity to society. However, at the time they didn't exactly have professional sociologist to write papers validating the need for morality, so they came up with the whole 'God said so' theory. Now, I don’t intend that in a rude way. I mean that the invention of God, and religion as a whole, was in my opinion a human justification or attempt at giving validation to something we knew was necessary, but don't exactly know why just yet.



I'm a very non-spiritual person. So much so, that I'm afraid I don't even really know what 'spiritual' is. The only thing that I've felt that comes close to what people describe as a 'spiritual experience' is listening to music. But that's, y'know, just music. So that's my big question: What's spirituality to you, and how does your religion answer your spiritual needs?"



Jeez, I'm wordy or what…

My 2 cents: keep a dream-diary. Your brain is always best uncensored.

[AmbersSecretAdmirer]

From another atheist's point of view, I think it's something to do with it touching you, deep inside. I myself find certain songs a 'spiritual' experience (especially a band called Magnum) and the reason is that it gets me where I live, says something to me on an esoteric level. I believe that for many, religious teachings can do the same thing. Words, be they a lyric, a poem, a novel or scripture, can move you and settle something in your mind.



Just my Humble Opinion, and probably way wrong.

[maudmac]

I wasn't raised any particular religion, so I've been freer than many people are to evaluate all religions equally, in the same light. I tend toward thinking that all religions are, at their core, more or less the same, at least in what they hope to accomplish.



I've explored the teachings of many religions and have long known that there isn't one that fits me. Most of the time, this pleases me, because I am very leery of organized religion in general. I'm fairly certain I will never find myself part of one. Occasionally, though, I feel a twinge of jealousy towards people who have established rituals, strong faith, fellowship, etc. I think it must be comforting to have that.



There are aspects of all the religions I've explored that speak to me, that are of value to me personally. And there are also many aspects within all of them that I reject.



Sometimes, I feel as though I know with complete certainty there is some Higher Power out there, in here, everywhere - some force guiding the unfolding of the universe. And sometimes I feel certain there can be no such thing.



I like to take Beliefnet's Belief-O-Matic quiz sometimes. It's interesting. Based on your responses to 20 questions about your beliefs, it will show you how those beliefs match the tenets of various religions.



I've come to the understanding that my spiritual home is right here within me. I will think/feel/experience what I need to, when I need to. I trust that the universe is unfolding as it should and that I'm a part of that. (Yes, I'm a fan of Desiderata.)



Thanks, La, for this thread. I like.

---

I had a Boddingtons and now I can see again! - The Beast

[La]

I'm glad everyone likes it



It's really great to be able to read everyone's thoughts.

Quote:

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I've explored the teachings of many religions and have long known that there isn't one that fits me.

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I feel the exact same way, maudmac (I like the Desiderata a lot too, by the way). Religion should be something that feels right for you, something that makes you happy and content to be a part of it. I haven't found one singular religion that fits me (yes, Unitarian Universalism is a religion, of course, but without a creed or set beliefs, more of a spiritual community) so I just take parts of other religions or my own ideas that seem to make sense to me.



As far as what being spiritual is, I agree with AmbersSecretAdmirer:

Quote:

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...I think it's something to do with it touching you, deep inside.

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Anytime you feel touched can be a spiritual experience -- music, being outside, good food. For me, once again, it comes down to being happy. Spirituality didn't really come to me until I truly started to feel happy, which didn't really come until college when I was taking courses that I liked, hanging out with amazing friends, and coming to terms with being gay. I try to always have a smile on my face because other people like to see smiling people and that makes them happier which pleases me. In my life, being happy itself has become a spiritual experience. The two major reasons I want to own a bakery one day are that it makes me really happy to bake, and it makes other people happy to eat yummy baked goods. In fact, I now have to urge to go bake something!

~La



What is the difference between a drunk and a stoner?

The drunk will drive through a stop sign while the stoner will wait for it to turn green.

[Kalita]

Ah, here's a topic to get me posting at length!



I guess I start with family experience. I've lived with my Mom for practically all of my life, so her beliefs have influenced me to a great degree. She was raised Catholic, in the old days when everything was in Latin and very unapproachable. She hasn't been much of a fan of any organized religion ever since she left home at 20; and the Vatican in particular is not a popular subject with her. She has not been to any religious gathering in my memory.



Thus, I grew up with no real sense of a regular religious experience, and have never felt the need for it. I have certainly come to many conclusions on my own; while I certainly feel there are many good churches (etc.) with helpful, progressive beliefs, and also a good sense of community and volunteerism; though there are also those who seem to preach nothing more than the narrow doctrines of their set of beliefs, and are very closed-minded about it. Unfortunately, neither of these groups have any real pull on my conscience and beliefs.



I have no regular spiritual observances in my life, so you can call me an agnostic and I won't object. I won't say I'm an atheist, however; I cannot outright reject the concept of some unqualifiable spiritual or energetic presence in the universe. Whether it is between living things, between matter and energy, or between souls, I cannot define or declare; I can't even state for certain it exists. I am fully willing to accept the possibility, however.

"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?"

- Marilyn Pittman

[zillee]

This is a cool thread!

Its interesting hearing about others beliefs, especially for me at the moment since my somewhat traumatic departure from the Anglican (evangelistic/happy clappy )wing of the Christian church

La You mentioned in your first post that your dad was Episcopalian I 'I've never heard this term before could you explain what it means, also what is Unitarian universalism, I've not heard of this before either!



I apologise this is going to be a long post!

My own journey with Religion has been quite varied, I was bought up as a Catholic until the age of 7 (My mum just gave up! Since it was my dads religion and he'd left when I was 3!) I always found Mass incredibly boring, me and my brother used to count the different coloured tiles on the ceiling at my Grans church to try and make the time pass faster. After the age of 7 I didn't really have much to do with the Church, I never thought much about anything to do with faith or spirituality until I was about 16. Then I got involved in the occult with a friend of mine. We did a lot of weird shit that ended in me getting pretty scared. I also was getting really badly bullied at school and didn't really have many friends or interests. When I started Sixth form these two guys gave a lecture about Christianity and my interest was sparked, I ended up going to some youth events with some friends and had a full on conversion. From there on in I was really devoted to my new faith... I got involved in my friends Anglican church and joined the youth group. I have to say that until I went to uni I had some absolutely fab times with the youth group, I changed my whole life and felt I had something to live for. I went on to be the president of the Christian Union at uni and did leadership training with the UCCF, but I always felt I was holding something back.



I came out to my youth leader and he was really helpful, ie: stay away from temptation, pray and don't give in! (real good advice ) I felt myself slip further and further away from the Anglican church, so I got involved with the local Pentecostal church. I did have some really good times at the Pentecostal church but it was very extreme, people talking in tongues and shaking and spontaneously dancing with flags and stuff(!) So I got more involved with this church to try and forget about the being gay thing, I really thought I could over come it! I have always been used to do art stuff, filming and set design for the church in my third year I started running experimental Christian club nights at the pentacostal church that turned out to be really successful, but then I had to leave uni coz I'd graduated...and got a girlfriend...and had no money left!



Stupidly I went back to the Anglican church and had a hellish summer breaking up with my girlfriend and being forced to have my demons exorcised (yes really) in the hope I'd be straight at the end of it all, but I ended up feeling spiritually violated and bitter, got back with my gf and moved to London, I had the worst 6months trying to work out what happened at the church and where it all went wrong, these people said they'd accept me and love me but tried to change me and ended up hurting me . I started working out what I really believed without being told. I read Paulo coelhos books and that changed everything for me I recommend them highly check out his website



I feel that finding and developing a faith is a life long journey, and I have to agree whole heartedly with what AmbersSecretAdmirer said:

Quote:

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My personal belief is simply this. People should do good for good's sake. Not for the reward of a heavenly afterlife, not for the fear of hell for not doing good things. But because doing good and being decent and kind and respectful of others is the right thing to do.



It's time to stop looking for some otherworldly force to "save" us. It's time for us to take responsibility in this world and save each other, with love and respect. I reckon if there is a God, he might just be waiting for the world to sort itself out before he makes his move.

---

This is pretty much what I believe these days and I try to learn as much about other faiths as possible Christians can be so closed off because they think they are right and then refuse to listen to anything else. Everything for me is still up in the air, I miss the community of the church, but I can't go back to a church that refuses to listen to me and still thinks I am wrong by following my heart. I just try to live my life to the best of my ability and I admit that I make mistakes, but we're not meant to be perfect.

Its all about love man!

Sorry it was such a long post!

heres a dancing bannana to make up for it

X

Z

Try it you might like it but you might smudge your lipstick - Jarvis Cocker - your sisters clothes

Edited by: zillee at: 5/3/03 2:49:16 am

[Hyo Shin]

Another lazy Catholic. Love the artistic parts of the religion,

Hate closed-minded people and dogmas. Still love Catholic

literatures. They are more open-minded than the actual religion.

[La]

zillee asked:

Quote:

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La You mentioned in your first post that your dad was Episcopalian I 'I've never heard this term before could you explain what it means, also what is Unitarian universalism, I've not heard of this before either!

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well, Episcopalian (correct me someone, if i'm wrong) is what the americans call the Anglican church.



As for Unitarian Universalism (or UU), here's a link to the Unitarian Universalist Association's FAQ page.



The following (also taken from http://www.uua.org) are the UU principles:

Quote:

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We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote

--The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

--Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

--Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;

--A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

--The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;

--The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;

--Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

---

If you're interested in learning more, the UUA website has a lot of good resources for people interested in learning more.



You can basically believe whatever you want and still be UU. There are Christian Unitarians, Buddhist Unitarians, Wiccan Unitarians, Pagan Unitarians, Agnostic Unitarians, Humanist Unitarians, Jewish Unitarians ...

~La



What is the difference between a drunk and a stoner?

The drunk will drive through a stop sign while the stoner will wait for it to turn green.

[Kalita]

La, you're correct for all intents and purposes. Strictly speaking, here's the definition:

Quote:

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Episcopal Church

NOUN: The church in the United States that is in communion with the see of Canterbury.

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Incidentally, it's the Anglican Church of Canada on this side of the border.

"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?"

- Marilyn Pittman

Edited by: Kalita  at: 5/3/03 9:19:06 am

[bronwyn]

Yay, a religion thread. I've been wanting to resurrect the wicca and W/T thread for quite awhile now but as this one has been born I'll hold off.



Like a number of other kittens I'm a pagan. I was raised anglican but we never went to church. I became interested in paganism when I was around ten. In my family Christianity meant boring sermons and pretending to experience a piety that was only surface deep so I didn't have a lot of respect for Christianity at the time. I have a lot more now but still remain more pagan than anything else. Oddly enough (and I'm blushing a bit to admit this) my interest in paganism was sparked, at the age of about ten, by a British tv series called 'Robin of Sherwood'. The outlaws worshipped Herne the Hunter, a forest god, and followed a form of seasonal nature rites. Somehow this really spoke to me and I started saying my prayers to Herne the Hunter every night. Cernunnos and Herne and other forest gods and goddesses still speak strongly to me now.



Throughout my teenage years I read more and more about paganism and got involved with other pagans locally (a good thing about living in a liberal city!), at my university (I was president of the wannablessedbes!) but we had no bake sales.) and eventually joined a traditional Alexandrian coven. I stayed with the coven for awhile but parted ways with them because I found traditional wicca too dogmatic. There were a number of things that I didn't quite fit with but I have a lot of respect for them and learned a lot in my time as a coven member. Since them I've been mostly a solitary ecclectic but I occasionally practice with some good friends.



In recent years I have had a number of Christians in my life who I am very close to. Their faith has helped me better understand Christianity and I have gained more respect for the religion. At their very cores, I see a surprising number of similarities between paganism and Christianity. When you strip away a lot that surrounds them they both believe in a good divinity and trying to do good in this world. Having said this there is something about paganism that still speaks to my soul in a way that nothing else does. We just fit.



I would love Love LOVE to talk to other pagan/wiccan kittens. Please email me at mere@rogers.com or chat with me on yahoo or IM at pseudomuse13 because I would love to talk to other W/T fans about Goddess related things!



Sorry this ended up so long!

xxx,

Bronwyn

"Miss Edith speaks out of turn. She's a bad example and will have no cakes today." -Drusilla

[Gatito Grande]

More than y'all ever wanted to know about the Anglican/Episcopalian branch of Christianity (~75 million of us, worldwide):



Episcopalian is indeed another name for Anglican---not just in the U.S. but in several other national churches of the Anglican Communion as well (inc. Scotland, which is where U.S. Episcopalians got the name in the first place, after the American Revolution---there was this whole thing that Scottish bishops didn't have to pledge "allegiance to the Crown," so American bishops got consecrated by the Scots, and so on).



zillee this line intrigued me:

Quote:

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the Anglican (evangelistic/happy clappy) wing of the Christian church

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That may well have been your experience of Anglicanism (I'm guessing you're from Mother England?), but it is by no means universal throughout the Anglican Communion. In terms of the practice of worship, Anglicans are spread along a spectrum between Anglo-Catholic (aka "High Church") on one end, and Evangelical ("Low Church") on the other, w/ the majority (in the U.S. anyway) somewhere in the middle (aka "Broad").*



These worship practices are also not to be confused w/ the liberal-to-conservative theological, political or socio-ethical spectrums, either. It's all mixed up. For example, the Anglican I know best, namely moi: as you have probably guessed, I'm on the far left in politics and ethics (i.e. "Yay Lefties! Yay Queers! Rah!"). But I'm also very much the Anglo-Catholic (hence, I eat God every Sunday and "High-ly" recommend it! ).** Many other Anglo-Catholics, regrettably, are politically conservative ("the Republican Party at prayer") and homophobic in the extreme (nevermind the many Anglo-Catholic priests who are closet cases ).



Therefore, Anglicans/Episcopalians are an extremely varied bunch. Anglicans have been splintering off from each other ever since the Church of England (the parent church) broke w/ Rome in the 16th century and, while it pains me to contemplate it, there may be more significant fracturing (esp. vis-a-vis the U.S. Episcopal Church) in the near future.



For the past 150 years or so, the High-Broad-Low wings of the Anglican Communion were in balance and rapprochement w/ each other, but that is changing. In the Third World, where Anglicanism has grown the fastest (esp. Africa), the majority of new Anglicans are Evangelical. Evangelical (and in this case, ethically conservative, esp. re: LGBTs) bishops have been throwing their weight around, attempting to control the more liberal churches within the Communion. Anglican bishops from around the world meet every ten years (on the "8s") in Britain, in a meeting called the "Lambeth Convention." In 1998, conservative bishops passed a resolution (mainly aimed at the U.S., but also Canada, New Zealand, and a few other liberal places) condemning the ordination (to the priesthood) of open lesbians and gays, and attempting to squelch any move towards the (formal, open) blessing of lesbian and gay unions.



Fortunately for queer Episcopalians, pro-LGBT bishops in the U.S. have generally ignored this resolution (Lambeth resolutions have never been binding). However, the antagonism between liberals and conservatives (within the U.S., as well as globally) has been growing, and by next Lambeth (2008), if not sooner, there may be a move to issue some kind of ultimatum to pro-queer bishops/national churches: "Boot your fags and dykes or else be kicked out of the Communion!" (This is my fear, anyway).***



But back to matters immediate and close to home: in summation, you just can't tell if an Episcopal or Anglican Church (its bishop, priest or congregation) is going to be "happy-clappy" or "bells and smells" (altar bells and incense, i.e. "High Church," my preference!), 1928 Prayer Book or Inclusive Language Liturgy or, most likely, whatever the current prayer book is in a given country (in the U.S., it's 1979), homophobic or "Say It Loud, Queer and Proud," Republican or Democrat (Socialist, Green or Right-to-Life, etc.)---until you specifically check it out.



*However*, if you are looking for pro-LGBT Anglicans/Episcopalians (a parish, a bishop, meeting other Queer Anglicans, etc.), this is The Guy to see, the one and only Louie Crew , doyenne of all things queer in the Communion. Check out Louie's site, and he can hook you up.



newark.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/rel.html



GG Or of course, you can contact me. See what I meant about "more than you ever wanted to know"? Peace be with you, Kittens! Out







*Pentecostal, usually known as "Charismatic," Anglicans, are a whole (comparitively) new wrinkle. To the extent that they hang out w/ other (non-Anglican) Pentecostals, they probably represent a sub-set of the Evangelical end of the spectrum, but there could be exceptions (especially if they hang out w/ a lot Charismatic Roman Catholics!)



**My own personal theology varies too much day-to-day, and according to whom I'm talking to, to categorize it on a conservative-liberal spectrum. On the whole, I'm probably conservative to some, and radically liberal compared to many others.



***There is one wildcard: the new Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams. Williams, the first non-English ABC ever (he's from Wales), is notably pro-queer. The ABC has only titular authority ("first among equals") in the Communion, but in a Church generally as enamored of formality as Anglicans are, that's nothing to be laughed at. If Williams is Archbishop in '08 (Prayers for Rowan's health cheerfully accepted! ), would Lambeth really try to issue an ultimatum that would, essentially, excommunicate the Archbishop? I generally try not to underestimate the vituperative hysteria of the homophobes ---and the last Lambeth meeting showed plenty of 'em in foaming-at-the-mouth mode---but kicking out the ABC is still pretty extreme (far more so than excommunicating 3 million U.S. Episcopalians---though presumably, homophobic Episcopalians would cut some kind of deal for themselves, and only LGBTs and their allies would find themselves outside looking in).



"Like a mighty tortoise, moves the Church of God! Christians, we are trodding . . . where we've *always* trod."



Edited to adjust a few facts and phrases

Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 5/3/03 7:37:55 pm

[zillee]

Gatito Grande, thanks for the great post!



I don't really know much about denominatons, or alternative names for movements and sections of the christian church.(me being ignorant again! ) I was pretty much taught that it didn't really matter!! But now I am realising that actually it really does!



My statement about my Happy clappy Anglican church does seem to be a bit contradictory, I know that not all Anglicans are like this, I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement, the church I went to was slightly out of synch with its label I guess,(in that it used to be high church) I think even the Rector got in trouble for being too happy clappy quite a lot! There was a distinct difference however from that church and what I experienced at the Pentacostal church. (which I am told is actually part of the Assemblies of God movement)



Whist trying to find a new church I also went to Vineyard and the local Baptist church. (I'm really doing the rounds!)



My problem these days is that I would like to get back to the church but want to find the right place/movement, more and more I am finding the evangelistic end of the spectrum is teaching that being gay is wrong, however I am not a huge high church fan (I get bored easily what can I say... atttention span of a knat! ) I used to be involved in alternative worship movement and am thinking of trying to get involved with that again.



some

alternative

worship

links





I'm still not sure about going back to church after everything I went thro, I have my reasons to be very distrustful, but I do feel like I need the structure and community again.



Thanks for the Link Gatito I will follow it up!



x

Z

Try it you might like it but you might smudge your lipstick - Jarvis Cocker - your sisters clothes

Edited by: zillee at: 5/4/03 12:18:58 am

[darkmagicwillow]

I'm an aurilotheist, and my spotted, purring deity is sleeping peacefully on the chair by my computer.



In actuality, I'm busy tonight, but I'll try to find time for a more serious answer another day.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[wa star]

hello kittens,





I was raised in a small town Bible thumping Penticostal church that I really loved-- until my teen years when I started wanting to dress like a girl (I'm a guy)



I left my small town and Christian family/church to find a place were I could be the kind of person I was becoming (a really skinny cute boy who wanted to dress like a member of the Go Gos, go to a disco and get his groove on -- with a boy or a girl, that never mattered)



But I have to say that I could never really get rid of my Christian roots. I never could wear a short-short mini, let anyone take me home for one-night sex, and I still blush over the F-word.



I wanted to be a brazen hussy with a motor driven ass-- not St. Teresa (the nickname my gay guy friends gave me becuase I was so wholesome and/or prudish)



And I'm angry becuase there is no way I could ever go back to a Penticostal church-- guys don't wear eye make-up there, they don't cook or sew ether -- even if they are in a LT married striaght relationship like me and my wife.



These things are hard, kittens-- it often takes years for a person to mix their religious upbringing and alterative sexual lifestyle into something they can live with. After 20 years I can say it's worth it!

[xita]

wa star, you are brave. It is hard to stand up against religion like that.



I grew up in latin america where it is hard to escape catholicism. I went through first communion more for cultural reasons than religious ones. My father was/is a non-denominational preacher (christian). I grew up with an expectation of believing in christ even though we didn't always go to church. As a kid we went and then in my late teens my family returned to church. And I refused, I was 17 and I refused and it caused some tension. My mother would cry lol. But once she said to me, that I should feel it in my heart. And I don't and I can't pretend. I remember as a teen I read the bible and so many things offended me it really killed it all for me. Unfortunately I really feel religion in a very cultural sense. While I cannot be a christian, I would find it extremely really difficult to be something else.

[Gatito Grande]

Quote:

---

And I'm angry becuase there is no way I could ever go back to a Penticostal church-- guys don't wear eye make-up there, they don't cook or sew either

---

wa star, have you tried to find a local Metropolitan Community Church (MCC, aka "the Gay Church"). They were founded by a Pentecostal preacher (Troy Perry), and I'm told that a lot of them are quite Pentecostal in practice. You and your wife would find that they're *not* just for gays---and you'd be very welcome in your eye make-up!



GG wa star, just curious: are you of "the higher the hair, the closer to God" school? Out

[BBOvenGuy]

Quote:

---

Bob, are you there? Help me out!

---

Sorry, I've been traveling, and now I've got a ton of catching up to do. You seem to be doing pretty well for yourself anyway.



I would like to offer a few links that might be of interest to the group:



Beyond Inclusion - A movement inside the Episcopal Church to advance the cause of blessing same-sex unions. Specifically, they're trying to get legislation passed at the 2003 general convention that would authorize such blessings church-wide.



Claiming the Blessing - An organization related to Beyond Inclusion. Its Executive Director, the Rev. Susan Russell, is currently a guest minister at my church, All Saints Pasadena.



Metropolitan Community Church - Their home website.



SoulForce - A movement dedicated to winning equal rights for the LGBT community through nonviolent means. It was founded and is still run by the Rev. Mel White, author of the excellent book Stranger at the Gate.



Have fun...

"The first task of anyone, lest you get canceled, is to entertain people, because they ain't there for message." - Dick Wolf

Edited by: BBOvenGuy  at: 5/7/03 11:21:19 am

[wa star]

Xita,



I'm really a whuss about most everything, including Christianity-- but I have wanted two things in life-- to live and to be loved. That has gotten me though all the tough things in life.



I'm quite sure all the young kittens here are way tougher than my crybaby skirt wearin' ass. That means everybody gets to at least as happy, content and self-assured as I am.



As far as feeling religion in a cultural way, I understand 100%.



GG,



I've met Dr. Perry before and love everything about MCC. It's really a hoot-- it's that old timey southern fried religion with drag queens! Total camp, total fun, total love!



The trouble is that my wife is still freaked out about Christianity. Even after 15 years she still fears all that crap fundimentalist church lied to her about. A very small part of her is still thinks God has it in for her becuase of our *lifesyle choices*



So no church for us



And I wasn't raised in a *higher the hair, the closer to God type church*. Mine was much closer to *The Little House on the Prairie* type. Women always wear dresses and no make-up, have lots of kids and clean house.



Men are manly, they work in logging or mining to support their families, boss the kids and womenfolk around, and drink wiskey and go to whorehouses behind the women folks' back.



So I turned out like Laura Engles as a boy! No big hair (I can't do the wig thing, makes me feel like a slut) I mostly dress pretty pain, use make-up sparingly, my Va Va Voom is no Va Va's (stuffing again-- makes me feel slutty) with a small tight Voom.



And I love cleaning, cooking, kids, all the *girl* things.



I guess I'll always be that *good christain girl* you'd want to take home to mother

[TemperedCynic]

Discussing religion with others has been a double-edged sword. This thread has been both thoughtful and respectful.



I grew up in an Irish Catholic Democrat family. My parents were never overtly dogmatic or overbearing, they just wanted their kids to believe in God. My education was all private schools, where I learned religion had caused more wars than any other factor in human history. To have learned these facts under the intellectual auspices of the Catholic Church is still the height of irony, I feel.



The more heartless the pronouncements and anti-human the positions the Chuch takes, the farther I drifted from religion. Hypocrisy doesn't interest me. So, what does?



- I believe in the inherent goodness of the human spirit. "Original Sin" is a controlling mechanism; we have always been good at birth.



- I believe in the light of human knowledge, wit and humor.



- I believe in humans who love without question, respect others without being asked or forced and are open to the thoughts and feelings of fellow humans - even if they are difficult or onerous.



- I believe that there is more than one way to state an opinion you feel stongly about.





I am not spiritual at this point in my journey, yet "ordinary" humans inspire me every day.

---

More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. Woody Allen (1935 - )

[Gatito Grande]

Quote:

---

I am not a huge high church fan (I get bored easily

---

I've been thinking about this line for a few days (that zillee said), in connection to my feelings re: (things said on) this thread.



The complaint that ritual is "empty" or "boring" is a familiar charge, and not one I would necessarily disagree with. Liking or not liking a type of ritual is a pretty idiosyncratic thing---and probably has more to do w/ what you're used to than anything else (I myself am a cradle Episcopalian).



It's just that for me, more than anything else, the ritual of the Episcopal Church ("Rite II Eucharist of the Book of Common Prayer" to be precise) is safe.



What do I mean by safe? Well, why is this thread inherently "scary"? I think the scare factor comes from feeling trapped in the wrong religion: a religion which may make sense for someone else, but doesn't for you. And that's putting it mildly, if you're queer, and so many religions are homophobic: scary may range from fear of getting kicked out, to fear of getting killed.



But even apart from an absolutely abusive religion, there's still the threat that someone else's faith will sound weird or illogical or just plain wrong.



The thing about a standard ritual, is that it allows people enough of a "common" expression of faith to bring them together, while allowing space enough for each person's own particular take on the divine. If I knew exactly what was going on inside the heads of the 50 or so other worshippers in St. James Episcopal, Albion Michigan, I'd probably run out screaming. Thank God I don't and I mean that quite literally. However, gathered through familiar words, around a common altar, sharing a common cup (and the infamously tasteless wafers God comes to us flavored as! ) . . . we're a family.



In contrast, my personal experience of "happy-clappy" Christianity was the strong sensation (and this is only my own personal bias, nothing more) that when the hands went up (in prayer, as many Charismatics do) the brains were turned off.



And don't get me started on any kind of "testimonial" type worship ("Let me tell you what God is doing in my life!"): that's exactly the kind of "too much information" experience I can't stomach.



And frankly (this is where GG is doing the brutally honest thang---no, I'm not always this obnoxious, I swear! ) I confess (as it were) that that is the way I feel about some of the testimonials on this thread. Not because they're wrong, or false (much less the "highway to hell") . . . they're just not mine. They just don't fit my experiences, my worldviews, etc. etc.



Even as I write the above, I feel like a total hypocrite. After all, this interminable doctorate I'm trying to finish is all about how people of different faiths can get along (and/or why they don't). Why wouldn't/shouldn't I be enthused to hear all about Kittens' different belief systems?



The thing is, I believe that the most important thing about religion, any religion, is what kind of person they make you, ethically. Any faith that makes any Kitten a righteous "in the spirit of Willow and Tara," livin loud, lovin proud, speak-Truth-to-power kind of person is all right by me.



Pardon me, if you can, for skimming through some of your cosmologies, though---cuz they kind of squick me!



GG Some things are best left a Mystery . . . Out

[wa star]

GG,





Quote

____________________________________________________



In contrast, my personal experience of "happy-clappy" Christianity was the strong sensation (and this is only my own personal bias, nothing more) that when the hands went up (in prayer, as many Charismatics do) the brains were turned off.

____________________________________________________



And what's wrong with turning your brain off? (within reason of course!)



Why make life any more complaticated than it already is by thinking too much? Isn't faith the point were a person takes things unseen as truth and stops the constant questioning?



In the W/T mytharc, remember after Willow got *clean and sober* off the magic (personally, I hated that whole magic/junkie part), and our lovers are talking about how damage has been done to relationship, and how trust would need to be rebuilt and *issues*would have to be settled......



.....and Tara says, or you could just kiss me?



Ahh! Turn brain off, engage lips! That,s the whole point of any religious faith for me. Shhh! no thinking! Just feel the love baby!



I've lurked though a hunderd miles of painful thread on this board were poor lost souls wonder if the're queer or not. And a whole lot of us are thinking about this way, way too much...



Stop the thinking and start drinking-- at your local gay bar, fallowed by some nice slow dancing and kissing. Revolations about your sexual preferances will fallow.



I grew up believeing in a God that just was-- the Light, the Way and the Truth. I was never taught to question that (and still don't)



And the same holds true of the GLBT nation. It just is-- we are a group that has been on earth longer than the domestic chicken and I'll bet we outlast our feathered friends. Any thought towards Dogma of why, like a gay gene or childhood trama... who cares? We're just here.

[Firefoot]

bronwyn wrote:

Quote:

---

Oddly enough (and I'm blushing a bit to admit this) my interest in paganism was sparked, at the age of about ten, by a British tv series called 'Robin of Sherwood'. The outlaws worshipped Herne the Hunter, a forest god, and followed a form of seasonal nature rites.

---

LOL. You're not the only one to find Paganism via Robin of Sherwood.



I grew up in a Methodist family, but to say it didn't really sink in is a Ph.D. in understatement. It just kind off rolled of me.



Weirdly, I like the concept of religion. I like the idea of spirituality. I also love ritual. I believe that there is a divine entity, but that it's more of a big energy source than a specific "being." I think that all religions offer, in their own way (ideally), a different "face" (or faces) to this entity, a different way of approaching the divine. Ideally this search for the divine should be opening and enlightening. Sadly, it too often seems to pit people against each other, sometimes with tragic consequences. No dogma, IMO, is worth more than even a single human life. It's just not.



Through my friends in RoS fandom, I encountered modern Wicca, and practiced it actively for about five years. I've since fallen out of active practice, but that's basically where my beliefs lie. Now, if I feel a need to connect with the divine, I just go for a walk in the woods.



Katherine Kurtz's book Lammas Night is an interesting fictional look at Paganism and its modern practitioners. Neil Gaiman's American Gods raises some interesting questions about religion, and one of its central ideas is that a deity gains power in proportion to the number of people who believe in it, so that gods eventually "die" when people stop believing in them entirely. I found this a very intriguing notion.



I tried the "Belief-O-Matic" website, and my top three matches were Uni-Uni, Quaker, and Pagan. How 'bout that?



Peace to all,

Firefoot

-----

"The holy passion of friendship is of so sweet and steady and loyal and enduring a nature that it will last for a whole lifetime, if not asked to lend money."

--Mark Twain

Edited by: Firefoot at: 5/8/03 9:15:13 am

[darkmagicwillow]

The idea that a deity's power is proportional to its belief is an old one, but Neil Gaiman is one of the best authors out there for dealing with mythological issues of all types, including that one. He also uses the idea as a minor point in his Sandman books, especially the beautiful short scene with Bast in The Wake. Terry Pratchett's Small Gods centers around this concept too.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."