Sex? Yes, Please! (Or not?) The sexual ethics thread

[sprhrgrl]

Trish, I'd suggest that you stay away from her blog for a while. There's nothing that could hurt you more, if she's so far away. . . And I don't know about the wisdom of the trip, but if it's all planned and paid for then yeah.



It's interesting how you're responding to it all considering that you didn't have much of a physical relationship before. . . But I think you'll end up finding someone whom you can open up to again. It might take time, but then doesn't it always?



xita, that's what I've been thinking too. And what one of my girls kept saying, but then her suggestions weren't coming from such a pure place. Thanks for all your help.

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

[SquishyTrishy]

*shrugs*

I am sorry, let it be..

and No..I dont wanna play

Grow up..



*waves a white flag!*

I never ment for any of this to happen, and i applogize to the lovely couple and to funky asain completely, as well as for the dirty laundry.

Edited by: SquishyTrishy at: 7/14/03 10:23 pm

[Gatito Grande]

Good googly-moogly, I've been away too long! (what happens when you take your sexual/romantic obsessions off the Kitten and onto email, that's what ) Anyway, lemme do the Proper Host thang, and send a Big Ol' SexEth Howdy to asianspice1, SquishyTrishy, and of course, our incomparable xita!



The topics are off and running---Yay! Carry on, SexEthicists!



SqT, take it easy on yourself. Your desire to be touched---by whomever you want to touch you---will return in time. Maybe you could ease back into it, by getting a nice, safe, professional (non-sexual) massage? (For that matter, sprhrgrl, is that something you'd be interested in, as well? Or are you set on the snoggin'? ).



I'm a huge fan of full-body massage, when I can afford it, and depending on where you live (like near a school for massage therapists?), it doesn't necessarily have to be expensive.



In sex therapy, couples are frequently counseled to give up sex, and turn to non-sexual touching, like massage, as a way to get back in touch (as it were!) w/ their bodies, w/o the performance anxieties (etc.) that sex can sometimes bring. I think this is especially true for hets, but we queers can't claim that we're *always* sexually compatible, *all* the time, can we? (I heard that! Hey youngsters, shaddup and let Ol' GG indulge some neuroses, will ya? )



In the spectrum between Hot Monkey Love/Tender Sarah MacLachlan Love and Do.Not.Enter.My.Personal.Space. , there is plenty of room for handshakes, hugs, massage---and perhaps kissing buddies , if you're more advanced than I am!



GG Enjoy it all! Out

[sprhrgrl]

Squishy, I didn't mean that you didn't have a physical aspect, I just mean that it got to happen less often. If that makes sense, which it does to me since that's the root of my issues. Maybe we could average ourselves and be sane.



I'm not all for the massage myself, GG - I'm more. . . I don't know. I'm not so comfortable with clinicalness, if that makes sense. I was gonna say "perfect strangers" but I guess that now knowing them is okay but if it's in a clinical "I'm giving you thirty dollars for this" sense it's not so cool with my belly. I would be all good with massage and other such touching to help me with my girl and the other issues I brought to the board, but not so much here.

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

[tkheaven]

Hey Trish, don't worry about your ex, I'm dealing with that current situation as well. I'm not happy about it for several reasons but it happened. And I'm dealing as well. The person I trusted is now with the one I've been living with and have been head over heals for the past almost 6 years. Stay away from the blog. Things are gonna take time. Some people don't seem to understand that no matter how things ended and how feelings are now, it's still gonna take time to heal from other wounds. I'm not visiting it anymore cuz it is painful. It's easy to replace songs and phrases when the significance of it hasn't been there for some time. Oh well, time to move on. Believe me, you'll find someone who truely loves you. Don't rush it you have alot ahead of you. She isn't all that crazy. It's gonna take a while to get to know her, she can seem a bit intimidating (the word here is seems), but once you get to know her she's cool. Besides, I wouldn't be worried about her.

Tk's new and improved "GrrArgg"...

---

Tara ate her, devoured her from beneath. -The Edge of Silence giving new meaning to season seven's catch phrase.
"You are the sexiest and goofiest kitten I've met." - Anonymous kitten at MR con

Edited by: tkheaven  at: 7/15/03 5:31 am

[StarvingPoet]

consideration.

[funkyasian]

and let's air our dirty laundry shall we? anyone want to play?

Nothing can cure the soul but the senses, just as nothing can cure the senses but the soul. ~ Oscar Wilde

[SySnootles]

I wish I had some dirty laundry to air. Well, maybe not. But as of yet, I don't have laundry of any kind.



I'm 29 and I've never been with anyone. I have to be honest and say that I'm getting a bit uh, anxious for something to happen with someone. But I don't think I'd be able to have sex with someone I don't have some kind of connection with. Kissing, well, that's a different story. I suppose that woud be considered "petting", right? (I'm extremely sheltered and obviously inexperienced in this area, therefore I'm not sure about the verbage.)



Now comes the dilemma where I'm too introverted and self-conscious to talk to anyone in a romantic fashion. In other words, I can't flirt. And if I can't do the basics, how am I supposed to get to the advanced stages?



Part of me never grew out of "that's icky" stage of development when it comes to sex. I assume that has to do with my father's love of porn, and lack of consideration regarding who is around at the time he's watching. But I can't figure out what to do to get over this (please forgive the pun) hump. Any ideas?



Catie

[tkheaven]

Or lack thereof *ahem* my apologies....I was simply consoling. 'sides...that's when you realize where the dirty laundry came from...*sigh* Can we stop this crap now? I don't want to start drama on the threads...

Tk's new and improved "GrrArgg"...

---

Tara ate her, devoured her from beneath. -The Edge of Silence giving new meaning to season seven's catch phrase.
"You are the sexiest and goofiest kitten I've met." - Anonymous kitten at MR con

Edited by: tkheaven  at: 7/15/03 5:15 am

[StarvingPoet]

Birthday Expedition (laundry basket full, must air out)



Day 1: broadway musical "Rent"

Day 2: sand and ocean

Day 3: renaissance fair



please feel free to touch or not touch

Edited by: StarvingPoet  at: 7/15/03 6:02 am

[tkheaven]

And the reason we're still building up?



It's been dead, you said it. Drop it.

Tk's new and improved "GrrArgg"...

---

Tara ate her, devoured her from beneath. -The Edge of Silence giving new meaning to season seven's catch phrase.

[Gatito Grande]

Hey, Kittens: thread founder steppin' in now. Welcome *all*, but play nice. We're here to discuss the Eternally Interesting Question of Sex---and maybe help each other out in the process---but *personal interpersonal* issues should stay that way (i.e. not here).



Now, a special SexEth howdy to SySnootles. Your story gave me a major shot of empathy: "I'm 29 and I've never been with anyone." I could make that claim at 29 too! (Almost 29.5 till I done the deed to be precise). I felt extremely awkward and weird about the long wait, but think of it this way: all these years have been an investment in knowing yourself first: think how awesome a lover (both giving and receiving) that investment in time is going to make you! Va-va-va-voom!

Quote:

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I have to be honest and say that I'm getting a bit uh, anxious for something to happen with someone. But I don't think I'd be able to have sex with someone I don't have some kind of connection with. Kissing, well, that's a different story. I suppose that woud be considered "petting", right?

---

I'm a big believer in the continuum of physical affection. Did kissing make you feel good? Then you're definitely in the arena of sex. Goin' all the way (to orgasm) can be great, no foolin', but don't totemize it in a way that makes you feel like you've never been sexual just because you didn't get your rocks all the way off (w/ another person that is!).

Quote:

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(I'm extremely sheltered and obviously inexperienced in this area, therefore I'm not sure about the verbage.)



Now comes the dilemma where I'm too introverted and self-conscious to talk to anyone in a romantic fashion. In other words, I can't flirt. And if I can't do the basics, how am I supposed to get to the advanced stages?

---

Flirting can be very fun, but in my (admittedly limited!) experience, it's not really all that important to a (romantic) sexual relationship. In fact, I would say that the only purpose of flirting, is to get you to the point past flirting. That's where the action---the ecstasy---really is. However, some people---some relationships---really don't require that flirting stage at all. Or put another way, some relationships (the best ones?) can start out quite seriously, with genuine caring and affection (where love inspires one to physically please the beloved), and then only get "fun&flirty" *later* (like maybe as part of the afterglow!). There's no rules here, Sy (if you haven't already noticed it, "there are no rules" is one of my favorite platitudes towards sex! Beyond the Rule of Mutual Respect, of course).





And speaking of respect . . .

Quote:

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Part of me never grew out of "that's icky" stage of development when it comes to sex. I assume that has to do with my father's love of porn, and lack of consideration regarding who is around at the time he's watching.

---

You were exposed to a profound lack of respect: of your father for you, and probably of your father towards himself (which you may have picked up by example). I'm really sorry about this, Sy. I just hope you never blame yourself, or feel like his messed-up attitudes somehow doom you. I think that sex, divorced from mutual respect, *is* in fact icky. But by focusing on the dignity of every human being---starting w/ yourself---you can get back the respect (I believe) you were born with. From there, it's a short jump to the dignity of the human body (again, starting w/ your own: I hope you've learned to respect your own body's need for pleasure? said The Master . . . Bator!), and the desire to share pleasure w/ the one(s) that you deeply care about.

Quote:

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But I can't figure out what to do to get over this (please forgive the pun) hump. Any ideas?

---

See above re: respecting your own body's need for pleasure (and it might give you ingredients for flirting, as well! ). Besides that, hey, just hanging out at the K might help, too. Just take it easy, Sy. I remember that, at 29, I felt like I had been waiting forever, too. But the more you learn to love yourself (in every way, inc. self-improvement), the less you'll feel like you are (just waiting)---and the better you'll prepare yourself to knock some Lucky Someone's socks off!



GG Life begins at . . . whatever age you are (and can get better and better) Out



P.S. If you wanna talk more, give my EZinbox a ring . . .

[SySnootles]

Thank you, GG, for the warm welcome. Such a friendly place this is. I'm so very glad I stopped lurking and started to participate. And thank you to everyone who makes this board so gregarious. For a wallflower like myself, it's truly a Goddess-send (that really doesn't work that way, does it?).

Quote:

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all these years have been an investment in knowing yourself first: think how awesome a lover (both giving and receiving) that investment in time is going to make you! Va-va-va-voom!

---

Gosh, wouldn't that be nice. Something to look forward to, I suppose. Honestly, I never thought about it that way. That makes me feel a lot better. Thank you.

Quote:

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Did kissing make you feel good?

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Oh my yes. I enjoyed it perhaps too much. Apparently I was, uh, impatient(?) and became somewhat, um, aggressive. I'm not really sure what that says about me, but I did kind of feel bad about it afterwords. The guy wasn't complaining... I think he was just surprised. But nevertheless, I was a bit upset about it later. It may have a lot to do with my first kiss was at 17. But oh, did I like it. So I guess I'm not a complete ice-princess after all.

Quote:

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Goin' all the way (to orgasm) can be great, no foolin',

but don't totemize it in a way that makes you feel like you've never been sexual just because you didn't get your rocks all the way off

---

I never thought of it that way. Very excellent point. Boy, I'm starting to feel less and less like a loser!



As for the flirting, I'm just way too self-conscious to do that. But, because I'm so unaffectionate and clinical in my persona, I believe no potential romantic intentions ooze their way out. I suppose I could be likened to Anya that way. Although I'm nowhere near that blunt, I don't exude romanticism at all. I perpetually fall into the "she's really nice" category. As in "She's really nice, but not someone I would be interested in romantically." I suppose I could have worse problems.

Quote:

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I just hope you never blame yourself, or feel like his messed-up attitudes somehow doom you. I think that sex, divorced from mutual respect, *is* in fact icky. But by focusing on the dignity of every human being---starting w/ yourself---you can get back the respect (I believe) you were born with.

---

What is it you said you do for a living, GG? Astute psychologist? That statement is so profound I don't know how to respond to it. That's one of those things I'm going to have to think about and process for a really long time. (Yay for unemployment!) The one thing I feel coherent enough to say is I probably do feel his attitude has doomed me. As much as my heart longs for it, I can't see myself in a positive light, sexually. Dignity is so easy for me to see in others, but not so much myself. Self-esteem issues. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Quote:

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Besides that, hey, just hanging out at the K might help, too.

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You know what, it already has.

Quote:

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If you wanna talk more, give my EZinbox a ring . . .

---

As soon as I can figure out this newfangled contraption, I'll do that.



Seriously tho, this is a wonderful mental toddy you've given to me. Thank you so very much.



Catie

[3peanuts]

God...I feel a so damn old fashioned lover.

"Cunning linguist" GG

Keynes was right

[Gatito Grande]

3p: and this is a problem, because? What do you mean by "old fashioned" anyway? I would say that some techniques are "time tested!"



GG IMO, this is only an issue if your lover complained about it. What does she want, anyway? Out

[darkmagicwillow]

Sysnootles, the good news is that flirting isn't necessary. I'd have to agree with GG that it's often not even important.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Gatito Grande]

. . . I just mean, take good care of yourselves!

Quote:

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Masturbating Lowers Prostate Cancer Risk -Study

Reuters

Jul 16 2003 5:52PM



LONDON (Reuters) - Frequent masturbation, particularly in the 20s, helps prevent prostate cancer later in life, according to new research.



Australian scientists have shown that the more men masturbate between the ages of 20 and 50, the less likely they are to develop the disease that kills more than half a million men each year.



They suspect that frequent ejaculation has a protective effect against the cancer because it prevents dangerous carcinogens from building up in the gland.



"The more you flush the ducts out, the less there is to hang around and damage the cells that line them," Graham Giles, of the Cancer Council Victoria in Melbourne, told New Scientist magazine on Wednesday.



In a survey of 1,079 prostate cancer patients and 1,259 healthy men, Giles and his team discovered that men who ejaculated more than five times a week in their 20s were a third less likely to develop an aggressive form of the disease.



The findings contradict previous studies which suggested that having a variety of partners or frequent sexual activity could increase the risk of prostate cancer by 40 percent.



But Giles said the earlier research concentrated on intercourse, whereas his study focused on masturbation. Infections caused by sexual activity could account for the different findings.



"Men have many ways of using their prostate which don't involve women or other men," he added.

---

my.aol.com/news/news_stor...1752455525



. . . and dig the researcher's name: long lost brother of "cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea?"



GG Waiting for study that proves the health benefits to the female-bodied, also Out

[3peanuts]

Good old fashioned, perhaps



SHE never complains... she whines and whimpers and screams, but it doesn't seem due to complaint... (sorry, a moment of personal machismo...you know, I'm Italian, from the south... ...it's more than a cliche: Italians do it better, Madonna dixit )



I feel old fashioned because I haven't such a post-modern sexuality: you know, buddies, sexual intercourses without love. No moral judgement here: I think that's all because I was raised by nuns...my sexual behaviour is more fantasy oriented, than physical-reality oriented. In this sense, I am incredibly creative , but I haven't this amount of incredible experiences to share. It's not good or bad...is old fashioned

"Cunning linguist" GG

Keynes was right

[LostWithoutTara]

Old-fashioned is definitely of the good. I too am old fashioned - I'm a romance sap . I've always thought that a big part of sexual pleasure stems from the emotional connection between two people - y'know, the wonderful afterglow moments when you can just lie there and be completely content.



Po-mo sexuality is also fine, but I personally think that ultimately it'd be unfulfilling - physical pleasure is good (of course ) but the emotional/spiritual aspects should be equally important.

[Gatito Grande]

3p, this butch would never challenge *your* machismo!



I agree w/ LostWithoutTara (hi, BTW!): there's nothing wrong w/ old-fashioned (and I think it's the "old-fashionedness" of the relationship we're talking about---not necessarily the sex within it, nez pas?). I myself am extremely old-fashioned: "Wanted: One Ms. Right to be my Soulmate, for 'as long as we both shall live.'" I just want to make it clear that this is a personal preference, not a moral imperative (unlike the "mutual respect" thang I mentioned above, which I think *is* a moral imperative).



The whole concept of "The One," or "Ms. Right" does raise problematic questions, however. Is she really a finite quality (what if our ships pass in the night?). If not, just how many Ms. Rights are there for me out there? Are there degrees of "rightness" (what's a passing grade)? Or does virtually any woman possess a degree of rightness, that merely (heh!) requires some level of mutual dedication to make ours into the Right Relationship?



Kittens, looking for enlightenment here! (i.e. I'm all ears!)



GG *Especially* if ya wanna apply for GG's "Ms. Right" position! Out



Er, um, see the Singles Posting Thread about that . . .

[3peanuts]

Yay...this seems a real interesting point GG....



I mean: does a person, who tends to have an "old fashioned" (and at this point we should try to define it) sexuality, tend to have an old fashioned relationship, too?



It often comes to the above mentioned (by some other ) monogamy thang. For me, btw.

Probably the sex thing is strictly related to the relation thing.

Is the sexual behaviour which influences the relations or viceversa?

"Cunning linguist" GG

Keynes was right

[LostWithoutTara]

3p - I'm a big believer in monogamy. While I've no problems with non-monogamous relationships, they're definitely not for me. I can't envisage myself having sex outside of a loving relationship with someone I really care about (and hopefully cares about me ) - dammit, Mr. Right, I'm waiting, and you still haven't turned up!



Being a complete sap, I love the whole romance thing. While I'm not a big fan of the 'overblown gesture' variety (you know, big shows of affection and the like) I love the little things. Curling up and watching TV together, snuggles, that kind of thing. But, unfortunately, most people I know have lost their faith in love (and I expect that in a few years I'll have joined the ranks of the cynical ). Oh well, here's hoping I won't...

Edited by: LostWithoutTara at: 7/19/03 4:28 pm

[sprhrgrl]

I don't know about this whole "old fashioned" discussion. I'm personally a hopeless romantic. I agree a lot with GG's "Wanted: One Ms. Right to be my Soulmate, for 'as long as we both shall live.'" But I think that partners have the ability to define where and how that goes. "Old fashioned" generally suggests monohetsex, rather than anything else in the world. So. . . I don't know if we've yet found the perfect term. Do we need one?

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

[3peanuts]

sprhrgrl



It's been pointed out to me that I seem old fashioned 'cause I can't report any experience about stormy triangles, uninhibited sex, huge ex's list and so on.



I'm not inhibited, I'm kinda monogamous (apart from Aly and Amber... ), but every male friend of mine makes me notice I am too the good family girl who gets virgin to her first long term relationship: and as they say it, it doesn't seem a good thing.



So I was wondering if I am the only one on earth feeling this way or not

and if kittens had similar/different experiences

"I like Amber Benson 'cause she's a proletarian" Sarabiga

Keynes was right

[Gatito Grande]

Quote:

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every male friend of mine makes me notice . . . as they say it, it doesn't seem a good thing.

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Um, would it be outrageously sexist of me to say "Consider the source!"?



3p, I would say that not having a history of "stormy triangles" or a " huge ex's list" merely suggests that you know who you are and what you want out of a relationship---and that, therefore, you tend to attract partners who are similar. All very much of the good (IMHO)!



GG Now if only I could do the same . . . Out

[snuggle79]

sprhgrl and 3peanuts and all the other girls who think the same...um, i'm exactly like you. You're definetly not alone.

I know what you mean. I have totally no experience.

Not with boys, expect of kissing once (and never again) a guy two or three times a loooot of years ago, when i was like 13 or something. I didn't like it, and that's it. I was never really interested in boys. I always knew that I've liked girls way more. But since today, i'm 24 now, i did not meet the one yet. Maybe i'm too picky or something, but i don't think that's something bad. I like that option way better, than some kids or friends of mine who are changing their boyfriends or girlfriends like their underwear.



I guess i am a bit slow in the whole meeting and finding the one process, cause i'm not that much of the person who goes too much to the clubs, scene and stuff. And when i do, it still is weird sometimes. I guess and hope i'll meet my ms. right at another location like a bookstore, cafe or while buying some cds .... lol. And then i will be able to experience all the stuff i've been missing since...forever..i guess. I still do hope. And that's the most important thing i guess. Ok, enough babbling now. Shutting up.



snuggle79

I hate the way you make me feel

[3peanuts]

*Hugs* Snuggle79



I feel better now, I was getting a little insecure (no news btw ). My gf has a sentimental history very similar to mine...it's that when you are sorrounded by gay male friends... (stereotypes intended )



I was feeling the "junior partner" in my relation with friends, the one who goes when others tell their stories.



I try to be supportive, and so are my friends. I bet they're envious

"I like Amber Benson 'cause she's a proletarian" Sarabiga

Keynes was right

[wa star]

A couple of ideas about finding your soulmate.....





1. It's a lot of work! I mean you have to date, have to tell people you're looking for romance, join singles groups, ect.... I have zero faith in magic fixing this stuff for many people-- especially if you are a little shy. It's so damn hard sometimes





2. Depend on freinds or family for help! Relax and let matchmakers set you up. I truely believe that most people's friends would pick a better person than most of the *true love* partnerships I know of. You can even tell folks what you looking for-- what does a loney heart have to lose?



3. Be realistic about what you want. I've been married since 1995 and the one thing about my sweetie that makes it all work is that she's willing to change to make our marriage work even more than I am. (and I try to be totally flexable about everything for the sake of my marriage)



4. LT relationships are not based in love-- people love eacher all the time-- but can't stay together. Break-ups often are caused by couples not having the coping or communication skills to slove problems. I've had 4 major lovers in my life and I'm not currently with the first 3 becuase I was a total dumbass (and honestly-- they weren't so great at the relationship thing either) But wreaked love affairs are how we learn to get it right the next time.



It's mostly learning curve and hard work-- with a little luck mixed in.

[LostWithoutTara]

Feels like the right time to give this thread a good bumping . There's been discussion of the concepts of individuals having soulmates and a supposed 'right' person for you, but what does everyone think about this?



Personally, I don't believe that there's some mythical right person out there, I think it's just a case of finding somebody who loves you and both desiring to maintain that partnership. I would love for there to be one person out there who could be the yang to my yin... but, I don't know... maybe I'm too cynical?



On a lighter note, at least if we do follow the soulmate principle, we queers come out on top. If estimated figures are correct (that 10% of the population is gay) and we assume that there's an even split between male and female, that means that we only have to search 5% of the population in order to find our soulmate, compared to 45% for the straight community! Yay!

Every time you walk away, I pretend that I'm okay

[VicariousSmoochies]

Hi LostWithoutTara! I like those odds...seems almost as if I could walk into a casino hall and find my Ms. Lady Luck vs. winning the million dollar jackpot.



I believe soul mates are relative to where you are in your life. I'm sure we each have a potential 100 soul mates that we could bond with. Luck would have to match us up at the right opportunity. I guess doors open when they are supposed to....blah blah. I am not exactly cynical but love is no fairy tale romance, either. It takes hard work, dedication, comittment, and lots of ego humbling apologies sometimes. I also believe that, sexually speaking, a good mix of physical and emotional chemistry is the way to go. When you're emotionally connected, you can gently brush against your lover and feel the charge between you two. What an amazing experience....so anyone wanna date?

I'm all for the emotional/spiritual bonding...