T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

[xita]

I don't think intent actually ever matters. In this case the intent is important because it brings the argument down from an intellectual level and makes it more immediate, but it really doesn't change the underlying problem. I posted earlier in this thread that I objected to Britney Spear's act as a minor. It is a huge leap to go from that to a man who actually speaks and promotes his intent. But in the end it is all a big part of the same problem where young women are sexualized way before they should be. You may say it's no harm but in my Elmentary School Talent Show all the little girls want to do routines to Britney and Christina and we have to say no, it's inappropriate. IF we were in England, they may have wanted to do T.A.T.U. These are 8 year olds we're talking about, that's what we want for our society?



Anyway, the FAQ talk needs to be taken somewhere else now.

-----------------
Baby you make my love come down

Oh you make my love come down

Make it come all the way down -
Evelyn Champagne King

[walker]

Like many others in this thread I have to admit to having contradicting feelings about Tatu. On one hand as a consumer I generally don’t buy a product if I believe the actions of a particular company to be against my principles. My sister says one of the things she’s looking forward to when I move to England is the fact that she’ll be able to have Pepsi in the house again. I have to agree with everything that has been said about Ivan Shapovalov. In fact I think people have been incredibly polite and restrained in their dislike of this scum bag. His comments in the British press last week shouldn’t really come as much of a shock given that in a US magazine last year he admitted,

“At first the idea was just underage sex. What the audience needs are new images. For this project, the new images were lesbian teenagers.”.

Actually this could have been what all the papers were quoting I admit I’m not terribly well read up on all of this. I think it’s showing in my lack of coherence here. My basic point is I in no way condone the way Shapovalov is marketing the band so therefore by my own standards I shouldn’t support the product he is trying to sell. Again this is just me, I’m not trying to criticize anyone who has purchased the Tatu album or single.



Now what I have read is the stuff posted on this board, a few tabloids and NME. From this admittedly limited list I have gathered so far that in their managers opinion Tatu are not a band, they are a six year project. He has been making a documentary of this “project” since its inception in 1998. Which means that by his timetable Tatu should be over by next year. Given the huge amounts of money the band must be making him I don’t see that happening. One thing is clear and that is that he is in no way interested in the music the band produce,

“I can’t follow the listeners, listeners must follow me. I can create interest in the group but to satisfy it – it is not my aim.”.



This is where the conflict comes in for me. I think Tatu’s music is good and I particularly like the message that’s being sent out in the song “All the Things She Said”. When I first heard the song I was quite taken aback by the fact that it was so explicitly about two young girls who were in love. And the message behind the song was that this was a good thing and young people should not feel ashamed about having these kinds of feelings. I thought, “Great, this is a message I can really get behind.”. And on the whole I still think that. It’s a great message and it’s one that just hasn’t been said in mainstream pop music.



A Peter Robinson article I read on this brought up a couple of really good points I’d thought of before but just had never been able to articulate satisfactorily. He brought up a quote from the Daily Express which ran a story on the boyfriends of the girls in Tatu showing that they had a “healthy interest in men”. As opposed to an unhealthy interest in their own gender.



I’m really beginning to lose my main point here and as I don’t see me finding it again any time soon I’ll just finish this with a really interesting paragraph from the Robinson article,

“Shapovalov may be exploiting two young girls. In another sense, he and Tatu are exploiting the supposedly acceptable face of straight voyeurism (Express proprietor Richard Desmond also runs a porn empire which thrives on lesbian and schoolgirl imagery) and highlighting the unsettling truth that society still isn’t ready to acknowledge or understand lesbianism. Tatu may not themselves be lesbians, but that doesn’t undermine the fact that they are the first mainstream pop act to articulate the true emotions of sexually repressed youth. If anything the fact that they’re straight makes that truth all the more poignant.”

"See, that's where you're a dummy. I think about what you grew up with, and then I look at what you are. It makes me proud. It makes me love you more." - Willow

[Robin]

(This message was left blank)

Edited by: Robin at: 4/5/03 9:55:56 am

[willow4tara2gether4eva]

Well my two cents... does anybody remember during the early eighties when all but the Indian in "The Village People" where outed as straight? And that the gay thing was a PR act?



Seriously I have a gut feeling that TATU is going to eventually be outed too. Which is sad as we need more GLBT people in the music community to be a positive influence for all young GLBT youth out there.

[EffieBlue]

Robin You may be comfortable with whatever the manager says, QUOTE"It doesn't matter what Ivan Shapovalov tells the press in order to get as much hype as possible" end quote.

But I think it does matter. When someone openly states that the users of child porn sites aren't having their needs met, and he intends to remedy that, by supplying images of young women dressed as school kids kissing. Then as a Mother and a Lesbian, I find that totally reprehensible. And I will speak out against it.



This has nothing to do with whether TATU are gay, straight, bisexual or whatever, It is totally about the man behind the image and what he represents and his motives for his "project"



Jill

[SJ]

All the controversy surrounding T.A.T.U. hasn't harmed sales figures for All The Things She Said. UK No.1 for a second week.

[SuperMeg686]

Hey all, I got this in my AIM news thingie today,... though I'd share



The stupid link wouldn't work but, here's what the link would have brought you to,...



* Snip *



Russian Pop Duo Retain Top Slot in British Charts

Feb 9 2003 5:44PM



LONDON (Reuters) - Tatu, the Russian pop duo accused of targeting the "dirty old man market" with lesbian kisses and schoolgirl outfits, held onto the top slot in the British singles chart on Sunday, the Official UK Charts Company said.

Tatu's debut single, "All the Things She Said," has already been a hit in the rest of Europe.



The BBC has said it will not screen the pair's video which features Julia Volkova, 18, and Lena Katina, 17, wearing school uniforms, kissing and cuddling.



The band's name has been roughly translated to mean "This Girl Loves That Girl." But despite a storm of protest from parts of the British media and a call from daytime television hosts Richard and Judy to brand their antics "pedophile porn," record buyers have not been put off.



Even an admission by Ivan Shapovalov, the man behind Tatu, that he came up with the idea of the band after visiting pornographic Web sites has not dulled their popularity.



* Snip *

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do ... Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain -

[Willow Rocks]

In the Sun newspaper they had a interview with the band and the manager and others that were involved in the band and basically, one of their former songwriters left after the manager admitted to her having sex with one of the girls (i think the short haired one) when she was 14 and he admitted he likes to have sex with young girls (though wouldnt say how young) but the girls both admit they knew what they were doing and was their chioce to be lovers, if they even are.

[foreverpiper]

Ok, i must admit that i do like tatu's music and i also must say i like thier music video (the russian one is better in my opinion though) but then i see this thread and i see all this stuff that compleatly blows my mind! i must say i'm kinda confused about the whole thing w/ their manager. But anyway, i found and interview w/ the manager dude and some reporter and lemme just say that this guy disgusts the hell outta me! But i found this interview and it says...well, i'll just let you guys read it...(this isn't the whole interview...just a part of it)



I :Being a physiologist, what relationship do you have with Tatu girls?



S ( ivan Shapalov): I am their sex partner.



I: With both at once?



S: Yes (laughs)



I: Educating them?



S. (smiling) yup…



P.S. In the tough environment of show-business, everybody fights for attention with what he/she can. Obviously, Tatu use lack of info and scandals to draw attention, not talent and songs. Making an appointment for an interview, Shapalov doesn’t give it .The information about the group is under control. To create interest in the audience, the girls are supposed to keep quite.



the whole article can be found here

groups.msn.com/ravenryuutATuimages/ivanshapinterview.msnw this guy is so rude its disgusting!



but then, in another interview w/ the acutal girls themeselves they've said:



"Don't you feel you've been a bit too explicit in dealing with a normally taboo subject?"



"We're just being sincere and not ashamed of our feelings. It was when we started working with [producer] Ivan [Shapovalov] when we realized that our affection for each other was more than just friendship. The song "I've Gone Out of My Mind" was not the first thing we did. It appeared more than a year after we started working together. When Ivan understood that we love each other, he suggested that we shouldn't hide our feelings. That was how it all began. "





ok, see now this really confused me becasue i thought that they were'nt really lesbians. they make him sound as though he did some great thing!



*shakes head* if someone could explain this maddness to be me...!



sorry if this inteview or something has already been brought up but i wrote this is a hurry and haven't read through all the replies in this thread.



***



ok, right after i posted this i found another interview, which i think is comlete crap! you can find it here:



groups.msn.com/ravenryuutATuimages/polishmaxim.msnw



first of all, in almost all the sites i've been on it says they have never actually said they were lesbinas, but in this they sounded cocky, and every 2 seconds said they were a lesbian. does anyone else besides me think this is fake? cause my heads about to blow up w/ all this contraversial (right word?) information!!

Edited by: foreverpiper at: 2/10/03 3:40:10 pm

[tommo]

This man is the most appalling excuse for a human being that I've come across in a long time. My God. He's educating them? Is that what they're calling child abuse nowadays?

It's in your eyes, I can tell what you're thinking; my heart is sinking too...It's no surprise, I've been watching you lately; I want to make it with you...

[Avern1]

Tatu is now Czech. For week.



Tara : ,Something just isnt right.,

[cassiopeia191]

Oh God.



That's child abuse, basically. This is one of the worst things I've read in a while, what a disgusting scumbag!

******************



"People who generally like each other should be bold in their interaction and in the commitment to give interaction a chance without a lot of bullshit pride issues." (My sister)

[tyche]

Julia (don't ask me which one she is, I have no idea) from the band is quoted in the current issue of 'Heat' magazine:

Quote:

---

"Everyone seems so sure we are lesbianski, but maybe we are bisexualski. Why not?"

---

Also, my paper recently had an article from lesbian writer Stephanie Theobald. She talks about tATu and also Fem 2 Fem (whoever they are):

www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,890455,00.html

[walker]

Sorry to bump this back up again. This post isn't so much about Tatu as it is a rant about the BBC.



I watched TOTP both last week and this (and every other week I am so, so sad ) and they showed the live Tatu performance. They cut away from the girls both weeks just as they were about to kiss which I was expecting given the controversy. So far, so boring. However last week they showed the TOTP logo and gave some information out when they did that. This week they cut to shots of the audience, including shots of men and women kissing. So basically what they're saying is it's fine for men and women to kiss but for two women to kiss is wrong and people need to be protected from that image. It just made me so



I just can't stand the fact that such blatant homophobia is still acceptable.

"See, that's where you're a dummy. I think about what you grew up with, and then I look at what you are. It makes me proud. It makes me love you more." - Willow

[SJ]

Walker,glad you mentioned that,thought that hypocrytical after showing a gay male kiss in Casualty last week which was before 9pm.

[themagicpixie]

Yeah I noticed they cut to straight people kissing. So they can show that and not two women kissing?

[rockit soul]

I don't really believe what I read in aritcles or interviews with them or thier producer, because I think alot of it is made up or altered by the magazines that they are published in. I don't believe that they slept with their producer, that sounds to me like it was made up.



I'm not going to buy thier stuff though, until i find out what's true and what's made up, because if their producer really is a pedophile, I don't want to support him at all.

[saule77]

There's an interview in Diva Magazine this month too... Of course, saying they're "very close", giggling and then saying they are lesbians, have been for years and will be for years to come...



Targetting the audience, much?

"You are Willow Rosenberg, vixen-y lighter of the flame and keeper of my heart."

(Camp Flutie by Rane)

[cassiopeia191]

Well, since Julia Volkova (the short-haired one) turned 18 today and so there was a little news bit on MTV (yeah...I do watch that channel sometimes): now, guess what! The girls want to make shots for Playboy magazine. Well, great...how fitting. This really adds to everything that was posted in this thread before. Because I think it's obvious who's prompting this as naked shots for men's magazines aren't the thing 18-years-olds would be wishing for (I should know as I am one)... really, I'm getting sick of this band.



Concerning things that have been said about intention and image etc.: I've been thinking about it and I agree with everything that has been posted on this topic: if you buy a CD, you support an image and T.A.T.U.'s image is one of two teenage girls getting hot and heavy together to target an audience of pedophiles etc with a disgusting manager who creates all of this to get money. This is nothing that should be supported by any means.



edited.twice. cuz I suck.

******************



"People who generally like each other should be bold in their interaction and in the commitment to give interaction a chance without a lot of bullshit pride issues." (My sister)

Edited by: cassiopeia191 at: 2/20/03 10:24:31 am

[daddykat]

40-plus cynicism?; these days nothing in the various attitudes shown by people in the entertainment business seems to surprise me but everything seems to revolt me.

Heck, Milli Vanilli might still be around if the manager had just honestly credited Rob and Fab as the group's visual performers; I guess anything goes.

[zillee]

Spin spin spin thats all it is. Ever heard the saying all Publicity is good publicity? I wouldn't beleive a word of anything that is printed or said about this band to be honest.



I read an article in The face (UK) last month about the girls and basically what it boils down to is some sleazey experiment to see if a certain concept sells records.



Lets think for a moment those of us who studied Media will remember the saying 'Sex sells' and John Bergers premises on desire and glamour of publicity/advertising.



There is nothing worthwhile about this 'Project' its a money making scam, and there is no positive message after all the manipulation. All this is illustrated by T.A.T.Us performance on TOTP I saw two weeks ago, without the uniforms and the video it was boring and without the hype they would never have reached no1, personally I don't think they can sing for toffee either!



(sorry if I have offended any T.A.T.U fans but its just the way I feel, interpretation differs from person to person.)



X

Z

Try it you might like it but you might smudge your lipstick - Jarvis Cocker - your sisters clothes

Edited by: zillee at: 2/22/03 3:49:16 am

[minya2therescue]

My goodness there are alot of Kittens here!!!



I dunno what to say about t.A.T.u. If they are lesbians, that is their buisness, if they are straight, that is their buisness. If they are pretending to be lesbians just to increase sales...well, thats dumb, and insulting, but still, their buisness. Sorry if I offended anyone by saying these things.



-Minya2



I

[urnofosiris]

No offense taken Minya

That may be their business, but I don't accept it is anyone's business to cater to pedophiles, even if that is all "just" meant to be a big publicity stunt, which I am willing to believe it is, but that does not make the attitude of that person any less offensive. I am talking about their manager of course, not the girls themselves. Any publicity probably is good publicity for that guy, but it isn't for those singers, nor their fans who are all being smeared by his philosophy.

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 2/22/03 6:06:10 am

[Willow Rocks]

Well theyve made it four weeks at number one here in the uk, now should we be pleased a song about two girls is number one for another week or not?

[tabularasa]

Ok, just thought I needed to weigh in on this topic and throw my 2 1/2 cents in about the whole thing.



These two young women are being paraded around in thin white blouses drenched in "rain water" while kissing in front of a mostly male audience...hmmm...yeah, it wreaks of exploitation. And what for? Money of course. Sex sells and it sells really big with the men( don't get me wrong...women love it too, but its different with us somehow...not quite so pervy)...especially when its lesbian sex. Add to that the black spectre of pedophilia and now you have something unacceptable in my mind. I can not, nor will I ever support anything that caters to the sickos of the world and their fantasies regarding children. It doesn't matter if these two singers are of legal age or not. They are still quite young and are clearly puppeteerd by a pervert. I wonder if they will be as glib about the whole thing when they are 30 or 40? I hate to see women, let alone young women being manipulated into mistakes they may live to regret.



I probably am sounding very much like a man-hater right now. I'm not. I'm just tired of women getting the raw end of the deal.



Ok, getting of my soap-box. LOL!

Edited by: BytrSuite at: 2/23/03 2:23:48 pm

[slayer747]

i agree with the last post. i also feel that many times, women are being exploited in ways that many people are not usually aware of. in the case of TATU, i don't know, but as i have observed, the guys who watch them usually just thinks that it's sex. it sucks that way.



anyway, as for TATU's musical succes here in the philippines, they made it up to number 6 in the local MTV network a few weeks ago so as for tv airplay, they're doing great. it's just that i barely hear them on the radio. i mean, my sound system is awake as long as i am and it's once in a blue moon that i hear them... kinda odd if you compare it to the MTV results.

part of forever is better than none

Edited by: slayer747  at: 3/11/03 12:52:04 am

[tkheaven]

I didn't see this being posted. Watching Mad TV the other night they had TATU as one of their performing guests (we were flipping through the channels and happened to catch it). They look like they're 15 TOPS...anyhoo, then the bridge in the song All The Things She Said came in with the synth, they were getting close, didn't do anything, no kissing (thank the gods) but you heard how the guys were getting all woo and hoo about it. I don't know how they do live elsewhere but they sucked on Mad TV (not that they actually sang, you could tell they were lip-synching)...

Tk's new and improved "GrrArgg"...

---

"I've become really protective of her. I want to make sure if Tara comes back, it's for good reason." -Amber Benson
Tara ate her, devoured her from beneath. -The Edge of Silence giving new meaning to this season's catch phrase.
"Don't get me wrong. I kinda like being the quirky nympho chick." - Michelle in 'American Pie 3'

[xita]

I watched some videos off kazaa to see what was so appealing. I can see why their music video would be appealing to young lesbians. As a teen, I would have been all over that probably.



However, their performances go pretty much the way the mad tv one went. Sometimes they kiss sometimes they almost kiss. It depends on the audience. It is however done at the same time in each performance. It is the same routine over and over again. It isn't dynamic or natural. The thing I guess that is troublesome is that they kiss because they have to , because the routine calls for it, not because they want to. I doubt VERY much that these girls are gay. Unless the act becomes less manufactured, I wouldn't expect them to be more than a one hit wonder.

-----------------------------------

En un mundo de ilusión yo estaba desahuciado, yo estaba abandonado.

Vivía sin sentido, pero llegaste tú. -
Mana

Edited by: xita  at: 3/11/03 7:32:05 am

[Repost Moderator]

Originally posted by Slayer747



i mean, i hope it won't make me sound so naive, but is there any proof that yulia and lena are gay? i've read some articles and they neither confirm or deny it...



whatever, i mean they're a nice couple anyway. i guess it shouldn't really matter anymore, right?

[littlecrazy80]

Like Xita I watched some videos of them. I think it´s just for their success.

One video made me really laugh. They´re actually rehearsing the kiss.

I love their music (especially the russian songs) and there are better ways to get success than pretending to be a lesbian.



*lil´c*



Unter den Blinden ist der Einäugige König.