The Harry Potter Book Thread

[tommo]

Well, she also said that she'd planned all seven books out in advance, and that killing the character that she did was part of the general plan of those books. And that once she'd laid down the clues and plans in previous books, it was too late to turn back on that original plan that she'd made. She cried when she wrote the death, and her partner, Neil, said "Well don't do it then!" To which she replied that she had to, because she was writing children's books and had to be a ruthless murderer. Hee. I like this woman a lot. I really do.

"Come on, this is a huge deal for me! Six years as a BabyBel, and now I get to be the Big Cheese..." ~ Blue Stilton Willow

[Boomstick79]

Evening Kittens,

Has anyone read Order of the Phoenix yet?? I polished it off in two shifts at work and have been banned from talking about it at work because my boss hasn't finished reading it yet

It is a bit hefty to get through, but well worth it, several plot discrepancies form earlier books are neatly sewn up, but there is a lot of intrigue left and the general tone of the book is very, very dark, even darker than Goblet of Fire. It is a new Harry we are reading and the depth of characterisation JK Rowling manages to create is impressive, powerful and utterly believable for a character set in a fantastical world, and I throughly recommend anyone to read it

I won't spoil anything but the whole character death thing issue is very well handled, and Rowling teases the reader throughout several different chapters as to who the identity of the deceased is. Several people are put in to peril throughout the book and beacuse I knew someone died I was virtually on the edge of my seat reading some parts because I thought the death was about to occur - I am such a sad arse

Anyhoo, I liked it a lot so if you haven't gone and bought it yet and are still umming and aahing about it I suggest you go buy it. It was worth the wait



~Lou



"Pudge controls the weather...."

[sprhrgrl]

On the news on Saturday they showed people who had been waiting in line since six in the morning to get the new book, and that was stupid because some bookstores opened at 12:01 so that people could buy it. . .



(headshake)



After all the hoopla started, I stopped reading, just because it was too much of a hassle to find them at the library. I might start again at some point. . . Maybe after they're all out.

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

racism=sexism=homophobia

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

[Scout]

Well, my rarely visited Borders was out of it, too. Guess I should have pre-ordered.



I didn't think I was going to care who the death was, but then I found out who it was and I realized I did care. Kind of took the wind out of my sails. So thanks Lou for saying that you liked the book so much. Makes me want to read it again.



Although it might be a while before I can track one down.

[WyrdOne8]

Well, two days after being one of the weirdos in line at midnight Saturday morning...I've finished it! For anyone who might be concerned about the major character death, I have to say that I totally forgot about it until it happened. The book doesn't even hint at it until the end, so don't worry about it ruining the whole story or anything. The book is much darker and the characters are noticeably growing up...which means they act like 15-year-olds a lot. I was really happy to see that Rowling didn't sacrifice character development in favor of the "likeability" of her characters. That's all I trust myself to say without ruining the story...have fun everyone!



-Meredith

[Scout]

That's not weird - just enthusiastic.



Glad to hear you liked it and that the death comes toward the end. I've heard quite a few people mention the darker tone. Makes me interested to read it for myself.



I also read that they might make books 4 and 5 into two movies each, when the time comes, and then release them in the same year like they did with the Matrix. And they would film the two movies at the same time - like Lord of the Rings did.

[Shinnen]

I simply cannot afford to buy the new Harry Potter book. I didn't pre order, maybe my sister did for my brother. Anyway, I'll be the cheapo... not gonna dump out a whopping RM90 from my already moth devoured pockets and hop down to the bookshop to buy. I saw hours after the launch that the bookstores here probably made much more than enough orders for the book. I'll just go to the bookshop tomorrow early and do a bit of shelf reading.

CheerZ

Shinnen



Who cares how tall your lover is ... height doesn't matter in bed



For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it

[WebWarlock]

They would have to.



Well it was sort of a Harry Potter weekend for us.



We did not get on any of the lists, cause well, if we weren't on them now then why start. Besides, I have my entire collection in trade paperback and when my son get's his Scholastic book order from school I'll get it through them (you know, support the school, get the book cheaper too).



Went to Borders Friday after work. They were going to open at midnight. Bought three Chris Golden books instead (Shadow Saga, nothing "Buffy" for me.)



We were at the library saturday morning, mostly because we always go to the library. They had a big Potter party starting at 9:00am. It was packed. Saw a bunch of kids proudly holding an 800 page book to read.



Watched "The Chamber of Secrets" on DVD. Much better than I had heard. Some things were left out, but all in all a good movie version of a book. I am still missing seeing the poltergeist. I had heard tha they were getting Rik Mayall ("Drop Dead Fred", "The Young Ones") to play him. I think that would have been great, but I would have kept expecting the ghosts of a hippy and a head banger to come out after him as well.

I can see way they would want to do two movies of books 4 and 5.



Saw a great interview with JK Rowling on "60 minutes". Allow me to concur, she deserves all the success she is getting. I guess there are talks for a "Harry" TV show, though she kept saying "maybe" and didn't look that thrilled. Personally I think that "Harry" is too big for TV. Not just the phenomena, but the story.



Looking forward to reading this new one.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side,
home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

"There has to be an invisible sun. It gives its heat to everyone.

There has to be an invisible sun. That gives us hope when the whole day's done." - The Police Invisible Sun

[tommo]

Ack. I can't imagine anything that would kill off the appeal for me than an HP tv show. I know it's a sure fire way of making money for the whole "machine", but I just don't see it myself. Sorry.

"Come on, this is a huge deal for me! Six years as a BabyBel, and now I get to be the Big Cheese..." ~ Blue Stilton Willow

[sparrow]

Well, I think I've finally recovered from the evening from hell, the never ending line that wrapped around Borders and the cranky, freaky parents who complained all night. My girl, her neices and myself were there at midnight to buy our copies of the book and I'll never do that again. At 11:00pm the borders staff placed us all in the buying line according to our number, which we stood in line for at 7:00pm. This whole process took the entire hour. During this they had trivia contests and lots of complaining from the angery gentlemen behind us who was upset that he couldn't go play trivia cause it was being held upstairs and our line was downstairs. I was number 99 and my girl was 100 and for the entire time in line he was just spouting. Finally the line starts to move around 12:20pm, they did start to sell at midnight but it was a slow beginning and we sisn't seem to move for awhile. The end of our hellish night comes to an end as we get our copies. Thank goodness I didn't want the audio version cause that was sold out severl people before we got to the cashier. On the way home my girl and her nieces started to read and you won't believe it, I know I still haven't grasp it, they are finished reading. My girls neice finished on Saturday evening and my girl finished around 1:00am this morning. I slept, having to recover from Harry Potter line hell. I am so not doing that again. I'll wait for the movie.

And yet, I just can't seem to care
Everything here is hard and bright and violent. Everything I feel, everything I touch, this is hell."

[urnofosiris]

Woo Hoo, I went to my local supermarket (the biggest we got in town) and lo and behold: there it was.

There were about 7 copies left. I've just read the first three chapters and I am loving it so far. I need to slow down because I really want to read this on my flight to LA.

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Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

[Scout]

Your supermarket?! Gee, I never thought of that - like an idiot, I've been going to bookstores. heehee!



Hope you enjoy it, G - and have a safe trip.

[Kalita]

Just finished the book myself. LONG read - JK's getting a very detailed style to her writing, but I like it - and a good shift from what's come before.



I enjoyed this one much more than Goblet of Fire, probably because everything fit together and made a point - one that is very obvious at the end. Some wonderful revelations, awesome moments of drama and humour, and every character gets something great to do - even some you won't necessarily expect.



I just hope there isn't a 3-year wait for book 6!

[urnofosiris]

Scout, lol, makes sense doesn't it? Hee, it occured to me when I walked through the doors that nowadays they sell top ten movies and books there as well at times, but usually not so soon after release, so this was a very pleasant surprise.



Edit: I went back to that store today and they were sold out there as well now. Hee I am ever so pleased I just happened to go there yesterday. Still loving the book, there are quite a few choice phrases and sentences that really *don't* make me feel like I am reading a children's book.

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Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 6/24/03 11:53 am

[Puff]

I finished this book last night, I thought it was fantastic and I really enjoyed the character development that took place with all of the characters and liked all of the new characters that were introduced.



My only complaint (and it can't be the length of it) was that I felt angry almost the whole book, but then I imagine that this is what the author intended. Can't wait for book six, only a year to go

---

So, the day started and I knew my name and had my pants on. So far, so good. Yay.
Amber Benson

[slowontheuptake]

Warning, Spoilers

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I finally finished last night. I avoided all spoilers (including this thread) and had no idea that there was a charactor death. The problem was that I didn't think that he had actualy died. I think I'll keep on expecting him to turn up through the next two books. IMO his death lacked finality. Oh well.



I was also completely indignant on Harry's behalf through almost the whole book but that's not new. I just felt it more strongly and at greater length in this one. Harry's always getting the short end of the stick isn't he?



Favorite laugh; When Harry gets into the Ministry by using the visitor enterance and gets a vistor pass that says- Harry Potter: Rescue Mission.



I think I need to go reread the last two books, after all it's been two years or so and the details are a little fuzzy.

[Scout]

Maybe he'll make an appearance in the future - as a spirit or something similar.



Well, my copy's on the way from Amazon. But I know what you mean about rereading the older books. It's been so long between four and five, I feel like I should go back and read four again to remember what was going on, especially since so much happened in that book.

[Big Dummy]

Aw man, I was hoping I would be able to discuss the details of the book in this thread, cause I'm dying to talk about some of the character development that happens in this installment. But, I'm glad that there is at least a thread to talk about it in general terms.



I started reading the books as soon as they came on the market cause I used to work at a bookstore. Years later I'm happy to say that I'm still addicted, and loving it! I bought this latest one at a Kroger (supermarket chain), 20% off, read it in three days time. It was Pride weekend here in Atlanta, and I had to tear myself away from it to go to events. That's how engrossed I was.



Now I'm done, and don't know where to go next. Good thing my Tomb Raider has come in the mail.

[angelofinsanity]

does anybody else think Harry's very very (X10) angry in this book? he's always loosing his temper or not speaking to Hermione or Ron for the rest of the day etc. i finished to book going - this boy has issues.





STacy

[tommo]

Yes, that was one of the things I noticed as a constant from the first page. Previously, I think that Harry was always painted as a reticent character, who accepted without complaint the punishments and treatments meted out to him by various people, including his guardians. This book shows him at 14, and although I'm not a huge fan of his ever-present anger and the way he chooses to express it, I am admiring of the way that Rowling has chosen to explore the changing nature of the teenager.



But there's a bit too much shouting, especially in the early chapters, for my tastes.

"Come on, this is a huge deal for me! Six years as a BabyBel, and now I get to be the Big Cheese..." ~ Blue Stilton Willow

[urnofosiris]

Well I could not stop myself. I finished the book in less than a week, which is fast for me as I also had to work and am a slow reader. It cost me a few nights of sleep though. I loved the book and I want to comment on it. I'll put in a bit of spoiler space for those who have not read it, but I'd actually advice people who haven't read it yet and who don't want to be spoiled and who are still looking at this thread to avoid it until they've finished the book themselves. Unspoiled is the way to go.

Anyway,



























There is so much to say about this book, but first things first. I don't like Harry himself. I was not his biggest fan in the previous books either but now I really dislike him. All his misfortunes and pain do not excuse his continued crappy treatment of his friends. He is always ready to think the worst of them, assuming they must be talking behind his back etc. I don't care whether that is because he thinks so low of himself or not, by now he should have some faith in the people that have stood by him unconditionally. He does not have the copyright on pain yet at times he acts as though he has.

I found it very hard to sympathize with him because of the way he acts. The fact that he lost his temper every other second and thereby playing right into the hands of his enemies was frustrating.



I like Snape a lot better now that I understand a bit more about his history, though I am still puzzled at his preferential treatment of Draco Malfoy who is the son of Deatheater and who displays some of the same arrogant bullying behavior that Mr Potter senior did when he was that age. Though Draco is much worse of course, at least he is up front about being a nasty little bastard.



Dumbledore was very impressive in this book, it reminded me of the scene from Star Wars II where Yoda kicks ass. Hee. The book as a whole I loved, my not liking Harry is just a personal feeling. I don't like him for the same reasons I don't like Frodo in LotR. They seem to delight in considering themselves to be these tragic suffering heroes and forget about the friends that risk their lives without who they (Frodo and Harry) would be nowhere.



I must say the death of Sirius and how it affected Harry didn't have an impact on me. At first I did not even notice he had died, it looked like he just got stunned and fell through that portal, it just happened so fast it just does not feel final and it does not feel like he died at all. It certainly did not move me to tears, but maybe I am just a cold hearted bastard or maybe I am just very happy that it wasn't Hermione biting the dust, I feared for Neville as well there for a few pages..



Anyway, J.K Rowling has done a great job yet again and I cannot wait for the next part. She said it would be shorter but as far as I am concerned it can be twice the size of this one. This book did not really have an arc like the previous books which could still stand on their own as complete stories. There was definite progress in the book though, for the characters and the events surrounding them. You find out more about them and some previous unexplained issues get answered, most of the answers didn't surprise me, but it was still interesting to read.



I am only bummed that I now have to find something else to read on my flight to LA.

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Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 6/30/03 2:14 pm

[Big Dummy]

Takin' my cue from DrG, spoilers in



5...



4...



3...



2...



1...



* Harry pissed me off something awful in this volume. I kept waiting for someone to smack him and tell him to get a grip and stop yelling at the only folks left in his corner, people who'd risked a lot and ruined their own reputations to support him. And yelling at Dumbledore in the end was the final straw for me. If it weren't for him, Harry'd be Voldemort stew by now.



* I was also miffed that there were no repercussions for what I saw as a very serious invasion of privacy, that being when he got Snape's memories from the pensieve. I have no particular love for Snape, but the fact that Harry accessed these very personal (and obviously very painful) memories of Snape's without permission and with no apology afterwards was so low. I'd have refused to give him any more lessons too, but no one reprimanded him at any point for his actions. And I don't understand why Harry would be even angrier with Snape at the end, to the point of ignoring the fact that it was Snape's actions that ultimately saved his life.



* Sirius and Hagrid's irresponsibility also puzzled me. Hagrid's always been a lax in keeping the students safe, but asking them to take care of an unstable giant? With all the scars and wounds Hagrid suffered, he actually asked children to take over for him while he was gone. And Sirius's death was no sad affair for me, because he seemed to put more unnecessary pressure on Harry, constantly comparing him to James and wanting him to be like him. Sirius was in the most important position, as someone Harry admired and looked to for guidance, but he acted more like a child than any of them.



* When is everyone gonna learn that Hermione is always right? That girl needs several medals, for being the one with common sense, for carrying the boys through their academic lives, and for sticking with them despite their inferiority.



* Did any one else think for a bit that we were gonna see Dark Harry? The very first chapter had him thinking these egotistical thoughts about his friends, how he'd been the one to do this and that, not them. Then he had these pissy thoughts about Ron becoming a prefect. I was immediately reminded of the first book, when the Sorting Hat considered putting him in Slytherin. Maybe Rowling's setting something up here?



Phew, done! My gf hasn't read it yet, so I had no one to discuss this stuff with, and it was sitting on my chest for days. Thank the Goddess (and the mods) for this thread.

[Scout]

Quote:

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When is everyone gonna learn that Hermione is always right?

---

Haha! I loved that!



Well, as someone who is still waiting for their copy, I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts (but then again, I can never go unspoiled - just look at my track record with W/T).



I kind of hoped we could discuss it here as well, so please feel free to comment, and put up spoiler space if you really think it's needed, but it may not be at this point.

[slowontheuptake]

Harry has never been my favorite charactor (Hermione is my fave) Big Dummy, but I disagree on some points made.



















* I thought Harry's anger was justified if only taken out on the wrong people.

He was left in the dark about his own life.

He was left in the dark about his connection to Voldemort.

No one explained why he should learn to shut off his mind from outside influence, just that he should do it.

IMO he was rightfully angry with Dumbledore who seemed to abandon him completely, withholding valuble information and support. When your fourteen, you are at times angry and sullen and you always think that the world is out to get you. In Harry's case it's true.

His anger toward Ron and Hermione OTOH was completely uncalled for.



*I think Harry acted rashly by looking at Snape's memories but he had just spent countless sessions having his mind raped by the man. He had repeated relivings of his worst memories with Snape, a man who lothes him, looking on and knocking Harry on his ass in pain every time. Harry's memories were fair game to Snape while Snape just set his aside for safe-keeping.

I have no sympathy for Snape just because Harry got a peek into his past.



*I agree with you there. Even Hagrid should have realized how dangerous his brother could have been to anyone with a human bone structure.

I thought Sirius' irresponsability was a good bit of charactorization. I've known a fare amount of "older and wiser" people who act rashly and without thought. It reflects real life that some people just don't grow up in certin ways.



*Hermione is always right. It amuses me that the stupid boys never listen to her.



*I don't think "Dark Harry" is in the future. IMO He was thinking the same shallow, self adulatory, poor me crap that most teenagers indulge in.

I thought the Slytherin connection is based on the wider connections of Harry to Voldemort. I think Harry is ment to be Voldemort's equal and opposite. They have been given similar skills and oppertunities but thier choices and natures lead them down opposing paths.

[Scout]

I think that last part's true, and brings up an interesting point about choices. Harry may have a connection to Voldemort and possess great power of his own, but it's what he chooses to do with it that will matter in the end, and it is ultimately his choice. Examples I can think of off the top of my head are when the Sorting Hat wanted to put him in Slytherin, but he chose Griffindor. And when Harry bought his wand, the shop clerk reminded him that even Voldemort did great things with his power - he just chose to do terrible things.



Voldemort made his choices and so must Harry. You have to believe that at some point Harry will face tougher choices - that he may get to a point where things aren't so black and white, and the choices will be harder.

[angelofinsanity]

spoilery comments! i think.



















To me, Harry just acted like a spoiled brat in this novel and though i never 'LOVED' him in the other 4, Harry just lost alot of points for me in this one~~and yes, I understand that teens at his age will feel very emotionally unstable (appearantly due to the rush of hormones - damn hormones) and it's all part of growing up yadda yadda yadda but the boy just have absolutely no respect for anyone in this book, i hope he grows up in the next installement.



Harry's err... fondness for Cho was one of the highlights of the book. What with him practically going "oh she smiled at me. SHE SMILED AT ME. i think she smiled at me, did she smile at me? she smiled at me" everytime she smiled at him. sigh ....puppy love.



Well, i suppose Hagrid wanted the kids to take care of his half brother when he's gone would be due to Hagrid thinking Ron,Hermione and Harry as his own family. he did say family got to stick together or somewhere in the book.



ah- but Hermione (goddess, it took me ages to figure how to pronounce her name) isn't always right- think of SPEW. she's trying to free the house-elves when they are perfectly happy where they are- well the ones in hogwarts anyways. though i will admit she's flawless in everything else....



oh well- happy readings!

STAcy

[Big Dummy]

slowontheuptake, you make good points about HP's anger. regarding his age and the fact that he was kept in the dark about his life, his future, and all manner of things that directly affected him. I suppose I think that regardless of mistakes made by Dumbledore in not divulging everything to him (if indeed it was a mistake, which I'm still not convinced about), considering all that D did and continues to do for him, being the only thing standing between him and expulsion and death, HP could've handle it better. He's angry about not being treated like an adult, but nothing in his behavior says he's ready to be treated as an adult, especially considering that his rash actions are still getting himself and others into dangerous situations. When he gets the information he craves, he runs with it and acts as a 14 year-old, hence the need to keep the info from him. It'd sort've tweak me off to have to keep rescuing the same person because they keep making bad decisions.



As for Snape...he sucks because he's always been mean to HP, but in this situation his role was to train him in occlumency, not have a sharing session of bad childhood memories. Snape's mind wasn't in danger, HP's was, and despite his lack of a bedside manner with HP, he was attempting to teach him something important. Hard as it was for HP to take that from someone he despises (yet another adult trait that shows that he's unprepared for what he's asking for from D and the others), it's a simple matter of necessity. Such is the teacher/student relationship sometimes.



I think the reason that scene stood out for me is two-fold. Rowling did something important here. She refused to let Snape remain a one-dimensional, hateful character. She has from the beginning; always having him perform some act that seems contrary to what he does the rest of the novel, but this time she totally humanized him by giving us a glimpse into the sort of thing that made him who he is. Here is a Snape not unlike HP; outcast, picked-on. Not so easy to simply put him in the villain category. I think this will be important in coming installments.



The other thing is, as I said before, as you get older there comes a point when you have to start taking responsibility for your actions. HP has been through a lot, including way too much death for someone that age, and I think he sees this and his battles as proof of maturity, which is one reason why he's so angry about not being included in everything. I think, though, that he has been given a free pass on mistakes and carelessness, and even trodding on others, because of his past, and it's dangerous for him to have both of these things going on. We've already seen that he's quick to jump to confrontation, doesn't have a good hold on his temper, reaches for the wand quickly, and makes rash decisions. He has yet to really be held accountable for his actions. This invasion into Snape's memories to me was the last straw. Few say no to this boy, and when they do he simply does as he likes anyway. And when it lands him in trouble, others are there to help him. He comes out triumphant, and weak reprimands are tempered with sympathy for what he's been through and relief at his safety. Based on what we've seen so far, I don't think this is unintended.







Did I just get all deep about HP? Back to the basics: Now that Cho's out of the way



Ginny and Harry sitting in a tree

Making with the wizardry....



That's my vote.

[urnofosiris]

This is a nice example of Harry Potter sympathy:



"What did she want to talk about Cedric for? Why does she always want to drag up a subject that makes her act like a human hosepipe?"



He is talking about Cho here, the girl he is supposedly in love with. What kind of thing is that to think? That isn't a case of 15 year old boy not understanding girl. This is a case of Harry Potter is the only one who gets to feel pain over losing a loved one. If Harry Potter needs sympathy he gets it. Giving is another matter altogether.



To me, his anger at Dumbledore felt way over the top. So Dumbledore neglected to tell him that Harry has a connection to Voldemort and that in the end one will end up killing the other. Uhm, did that actually come as a surprise to Harry? Well probably, because Harry in his entirety does not have half the wit Hermione has in her little finger. I am not going all Snape on Harry Potter who decided to dislike Harry from the start. Nope, I grew to dislike him based on his own actions.



Hermione is my favourite character of the lot, closely followed by professor McGonnagal, both are quite formidable. Oh and Neville too. He truly is brave, and he has as much reason to be bitter as Harry, but he is unwavering in his loyalty to his friends. All in all there were some great insights into many of the characters. I agree with Big Dummy about Snape. He is no longer just a nasty guy, he is a nasty guy with a nasty past now. Heh. I do sympathize with him more now and I think that in the end he and Harry will probably end up with some level of genuine respect for each other, though I doubt they will ever become sworn friends.

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Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

[slowontheuptake]

Should I bother with spoiler space?



























Strangly, the insight into Snape's past makes me dislike him more rather than feel sympathy. Snape being an outcast loser as a teen realy isn't shocking but it does make his treatment of Harry all the more uncalled for. I mean I was thinking 'That's it? That's the reason he treats Harry like shit?.'

Dombledore seems more than willing to let Snape get away with the same uncalled for poor me crap that Harry is allowed when Snape's more than old enough to be held accountable for his actions.

Sure, Harry could take the high road and apologise for his mistakes but he isn't the authority figure of that dynamic. It seems like we are expecting too much of Harry while expecting nothing out of Snape... Which is sort of the point I guess... I think I've talked myself in a circle

OTOH I would love to see someone I have respect for put Harry in his place and show him what a self-centered little brat he's become. I think Harry needs some serious self reflection.



Moving on.

I forgot about Hermione's current exercise in futility. She shoud be listening to the stupid boys when it comes to S.P.E.W. So I guess she's almost always right .

I love that Hermione seems to be good friends with Ginny because having two highly annoying boys as best friends could drive her insane otherwise. Also, I realy hope she doesn't end up with Ron



I love Prof. McGonnagal! She's also my second favorite charactor. I loved her handling of Umbrage (sp?). I just wish there was more of her.

[Shadow]

I got my copy of book two days after it was out in stores. of course I had to read it in english.



took me 19 hours and I can't wait for the next part.



I loved Harry. he was great and he handled things much better then somebody else would.



J.K.Rowling did excelent job. I read every word with delight and expectation!



I understand that Black had to die but it was sad...



how am I going to wait for another year?

Edited by: Warduke at: 7/6/03 8:54 am