The Scary "Let's Talk About Religion" Thread

[zillee]

Gatito,



I get what you are saying about ritual, it is safe and something everyone can experience collectively, (I always enjoyed communion and some liturgy) Sometimes I found the charismatic church hard to relate to, because people were spontaneously singing, talking in tongues and falling on the floor in (apparent) praise to God, making collective praise personal and unique, sometimes this is a good thing but occasionally it is hard to relate to. My complaint with High Church was that there was too much structure and I have been known to fall asleep...



(incidentally I don't use the word worship to describe singing and or praying because it doesn't mean that. To worship means a complete lifestyle of praise rather than what you do for twenty mins each Sunday!)



I guess I'm just difficult to please! There are aspects of both styles of church I like, at uni I used to go to the cathedral on my own during the day quite frequently just to light candles say some prayers and meditate on God, but when it comes down to teaching and praise I like to be engaged, something I didn't find at the high church.

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when the hands went up (in prayer, as many Charismatics do) the brains were turned off.

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I think its hard to say what someone is feeling when viewed from the outside. From what I have experienced, when people raise their hands in praise it can be an expression of what they are feeling, or because everyone else is doing it!



Do you really need your brain (in a major way) when you are singing or praising isn't it just a simple way of showing your love for God?



I'm with you on the testimonial front GG! There is a time and a place (like cell groups) where this is perhaps more appropriate, when it is used to recruit people to the church it does make me wanna

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The thing is, I believe that the most important thing about religion, any religion, is what kind of person they make you, ethically.

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Right on!



If I ever find the right church, or faith movement I'll be a really happy kitten!



or banana!



X

Z

Try it you might like it but you might smudge your lipstick - Jarvis Cocker - your sisters clothes

[Gatito Grande]

wa star asks

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And what's wrong with turning your brain off? (within reason of course!)

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Heh heh: "turning brain off within reason." You've certainly mastered the art of the paradox, wa star!



zillee asks this also:

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Do you really need your brain (in a major way) when you are singing or praising isn't it just a simple way of showing your love for God?

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Well, guess I'm a lot like Willow: "Always thinkin, thinkin." That this can be a problem is readily apparent, again as per wa star:

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Why make life any more complicated than it already is by thinking too much? Isn't faith the point were a person takes things unseen as truth and stops the constant questioning?



.....and Tara says, or you could just kiss me?



Ahh! Turn brain off, engage lips! That,s the whole point of any religious faith for me. Shhh! no thinking! Just feel the love baby!

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Well, when you put it that way!



Seriously, I'm not all about the hyper-intellectualizing, really I'm not. (In fact, that's been my problem w/ some of the U-U services I've attended----not that there's anything wrong w/ U-U's). Au contraire, it's the familiarity of Episcopal liturgy that probably allows me to turn my brain off to a great degree (whereas Pentecostal stuff has me *thinking* "I hate this music! It's so banal! Give me something at least a couple of centuries old, preferably w/ Latin origins." ).



The other thing, wa star, is that I associate Pentecostal/Evangelical stuff w/ conservative, gay-bashing ethics. Now if I'd first heard the stuff in an MCC setting, I'd probably have very different associations . . .



The hypocritical part, though, is that I can observe (if not participate in) Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox liturgies, wherein the leadership is probably every bit as homophobic as the Prots, and bracket all the bad stuff and set it aside---and just get my Gregorian groove on! ("At least they're reverent, mystical, beautiful-sounding, sweet-smelling homophobes" )



If that doesn't make sense, I've succeeded in demonstrating that I can, in fact, turn my brain off.

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Stop the thinking and start drinking-- at your local gay bar, fallowed by some nice slow dancing and kissing. Revolations about your sexual preferances will fallow.

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Um, I think I hear what you're saying, wa star. If I follow your advice, I might finally get laid---instead of just pontificating as a religious know-it-all, and then kvetching why I never get laid!



While I love my chosen religious path, it's filled me w/ a lot of hang-ups to be sure, none more than the "I'm afraid to get involved w/ the wrong person" bug-a-boo. My religious ethics led exactly and precisely to *Mr. Wonderful*, the Baptist minister (I met in seminary) who, after seven years of marriage, kicked me to the curb. (Um, I should mention I have that other issue w/ Evangelicals! ) Maybe I would have done better on the "Highway to Heaven" simply by trolling dyke bars*, getting laid, and dealing w/ the "But I don't love her, and she doesn't love me!" question later (I might feel guilty, but at least I'd be satisfied!). I just don't know.



Uh oh, I think I just raised the scary "sex before 'marriage'?" religious question . . .



GG Over thinking again Out



*Maybe this is dealt with on the "where did you meet your girl" thread, but do Kittens know of alternatives to bars, especially smoky bars? (GG's allergic to smoking and smokers)



I love this guy---gal---pachyderm!

Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 5/8/03 10:08:37 pm

[mscheckmate]

I'd be Anglican, or even Catholic, just for the music. Seriously, there is no better gig than providing music for an affluent Episcopal church: fat paycheck, beautiful ritual, transcendent music, and choir members who know how to have a good time, with the music and with each other. And, generally, sermons that do not require me to check my brain at the door. I don't mean to stereotype a religion, but that's been my experience, anyway.



I also find the "reverent, mystical" part of a high-church mass appealing, GG. There's an Anglican church in LA that's aligned with the conservative wing of American Episcopalianism. Yet, despite its male-only priesthood and other conservative touches, when I'm working there I feel a spiritual presence that seems both mystical and knowable. Perhaps it's an indication, to those of us who believe in God, that God's presence can be felt even in places that might seem hostile to some of God's children. Or, maybe He/She is hanging out there to protect all of the gay people providing the music. (It goes without saying that the organist there is faaabulous. )



My gf was raised Episcopalian, in a conservative Southern parish. Even though her religious beliefs have evolved over the years, she still loves the church. And in Southern California, many Episcopal/Anglican churches are gay-friendly, so I've been encouraging her to find a church that she likes, and I'll attend with her.

It'll be the train, Walter, just the way you want it. Straight down the line.

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 5/8/03 10:16:57 pm

[BBOvenGuy]

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I'd be Anglican, or even Catholic, just for the music. Seriously, there is no better gig than providing music for an affluent Episcopal church: fat paycheck, beautiful ritual, transcendent music, and choir members who know how to have a good time, with the music and with each other.

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Ain't that the truth - well, except for the fat paycheck part, since I'm just a common choir member. But the rest has definitely been the case through the ten years that I've been singing at All Saints Pasadena.



So has this:

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sermons that do not require me to check my brain at the door.

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Or as one priest said in his sermon once - "We tell you what the church doctrine is, but you have to figure out for yourselves what it means."

"The first task of anyone, lest you get canceled, is to entertain people, because they ain't there for message." - Dick Wolf

[darkmagicwillow]

I have to chime in with my love for Anglican choral music. I went to Evensong at Westminster Abbey last year and it was incredible. And it's free...

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[wa star]

mscheckmate,



quote

________________________________________________



I'd be Anglican, or even Catholic, just for the music. Seriously, there is no better gig than providing music for an affluent Episcopal church: fat paycheck, beautiful ritual, transcendent music, and choir members who know how to have a good time, with the music and with each other. And, generally, sermons that do not require me to check my brain at the door. I don't mean to stereotype a religion, but that's been my experience, anyway.



________________________________________________



That's a good way of looking at religion! It always seems that much of what happens in any church is hooey-- and that if a person can get past that and see the good stuff, music, community, friendship/love and the monthly potlucks... it can be worth it.





GG,



Dumped by a Bapist preacher?!? Ouch, girlfriend! that's got to be rough. When I was 12 I used to dream about being a PW (preacher's wife) Are Bapist preachers even allowed to divorce and keep preaching? Being a Baptist guy, I'm betting you have kiddies out of the deal.... I'm so sorry, I just hope that you and yours are getting though this alright.



Please feel free to launch any blistering attacks on born-again evangalical Christians-- becuase they have done you wrong, both a member of the GLBT nation and on a personal, (and I'm betting even more painful on the gut wrenching) level.



In fact, any kitten who wants to tell God, Jesus, the Pope, any church or that creepy youth pator who tried to get into their pants to screw off-- I say go right ahead and do so. I'm pretty sure all the chuchy kitties will understand. Religion is such weapon for many of the evil bastards of this world.



And sometimes religion brings out the best in folks.



Funny how all the powerful things in life are like that.

[Gatito Grande]

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Dumped by a Bapist preacher?!? Ouch, girlfriend! that's got to be rough. When I was 12 I used to dream about being a PW (preacher's wife) Are Bapist preachers even allowed to divorce and keep preaching? Being a Baptist guy, I'm betting you have kiddies out of the deal.... I'm so sorry, I just hope that you and yours are getting though this alright.

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Thanks, wa star, that's very sweet (although my butch semi-FTM side would just as soon not be called "girlfriend"---the sentiment is appreciated nonetheless).



We didn't have kids. The thing is, when we first married, he wanted two or more, and I wasn't sure ("let's have one, and see how it goes. Maybe adopt more?" It was always understood that we would wait until I finished my doctorate---which is a whole other trauma). Then I really wanted to have at least one, and he started getting cold feet: "we could just have our nieces and nephews up for the summer." He seemed less and less interested in kids. Then, after he said he wanted out of the marriage, at our last stab marital counseling, one of his grounds? "She doesn't want to have kids." WTF??? (He was just totally bull-sh*tting me by then)



As far as him "keeping preaching," don't get me started (too late!). While I don't want to give away too many could-get-me-sued details, he was employed by a church-affiliated college as chaplain. Not only did the college totally support him in getting the divorce, the only time I *ever* heard from them (the same college president and administration that were oh-so-gracious to me when we first moved to town) was when . . . they freakin' evicted me from college-owned housing!!!

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Please feel free to launch any blistering attacks on born-again evangalical Christians-- becuase they have done you wrong, both a member of the GLBT nation and on a personal, (and I'm betting even more painful on the gut wrenching) level.

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Thanks, I think I've got that part down . . .

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In fact, any kitten who wants to tell God, Jesus, the Pope, any church or that creepy youth pator who tried to get into their pants to screw off-- I say go right ahead and do so. I'm pretty sure all the chuchy kitties will understand. Religion is such weapon for many of the evil bastards of this world.

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Sounds like you got some venting to do too, girlfriend! Dish on . . .



GG It's funny, I was just noticing the "when did you know" thread bumped-up today. About a year ago (on the first page of it), I posted a bunch of my whole sordid story, inc. the ugly "Mr. Wonderful" parts. I guess I still have a ways to go to put this all behind me . . . Out

[Willowlicious]

I've been avoiding posting in here, because I fear I won't be very coherent, but here goes....



I grew up Seventh-Day Adventist (and apparently some writer on the Gilmore Girls did, too, given Lane's current storyline!). My parents were not overly strict about it. They took us to church every week and sent us to private SDA schools, but they weren't at all overbearing about it. We felt loved and secure and had a strong sense of right and wrong. I have happy memories of my childhood and the church's role in it.



When I got to academy things really changed for me, though. I never "felt" this religious experience that was being preached to me in church and in religion classes. I was surrounded by it and it left me cold. I resented the way SDAs always pushed the "end of times." I felt the doctrine was obviously used to frighten kids and also caused some to devalue their futures because surely Christ is coming soon anyway. This environment discouraged open thought and ideas and squelched creativity and independence.



Oh, yeah, and they didn't think much of homosexuals, either. It was on this issue that I really began to question my religion. I knew that I wasn't evil. I knew that I had been attracted to girls from a very young age. I knew that whatever sexual orientation I was, it was inherent to me and I wasn't a bad person. As a result, I never felt terribly guilty about being gay. Instead my dilemma turned into, "If my church is wrong about homosexuality, what else is it wrong about?" I started questioning everything and the more I learned about the history of Christianity (and the shifty politics behind it), the less I believed in my church and in organized religion as a whole.



I currently don't attend any church. I have a hard time because, even though I don't necessarily believe in SDA doctrines, I find it difficult to reject them in favor of another church's teachings. For instance, SDAs go to church on Saturday, not Sunday. Most liberal churches--like MCC--are on Sunday. That's not a big problem for me, it's just that it always starts me thinking about what I believe in and then I just go in circles and decide not to go to church at all.



Not knowing what I believed in was very difficult when my mother died. I wanted nothing more than to believe that she went right to heaven or something nice and comforting like that. However, SDAs teach that "the dead know nothing" and are, in fact, dead until Christ returns and THEN He takes all the good folks to heaven. Not as comforting as the straight-to-heaven bit, huh? Nice ending ultimately, but none of the warm, fuzzy "she's still looking out for you" stories can quite make me feel better in the meantime. It's not that I believe the SDA version of things so much as I find my upbringing hinders my ability to believe anything else (gospel-type churches tend to have that power). So, I really believe in nothing, which, at times, doesn't feel that good. I envy my Dad sometimes. He's a true believer and he found great comfort in his beliefs and his church community when Mom died. But it's not that simple for me. I just keep thinking, thinking, thinking.



All I know is that I believe in some form of God and some form of afterlife. I believe in honestly trying to be good and in harming no living thing. After that, things get pretty darn fuzzy for me.



Okay, that was just a really long way of saying, "I have no idea."



Sorry about that!



Amy

Edited by: Willowlicious at: 5/9/03 7:00:02 pm

[Gatito Grande]

Amy, this is for you and your mom; I hope you like it.

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Lord God,

we can hope for others nothing better

than the happiness we desire for ourselves.

Therefore, I pray you, do not separate me

after death

from those I have tenderly loved on earth.

Grant that where I am they may be with me,

and that I may enjoy their presence in

heaven

after being so often deprived of it on earth.

Lord God, I ask you to receive your beloved

children

immediately into your life-giving heart.

After this brief life on earth,

give them eternal happiness.

Amen.

---

Saint Ambrose of Milan*



Death and thereafter, the Eternal Question: whatever the merits of a purely ethical belief system, I for one am weak enough to need a faith that says *something* about the Big D. Especially, as St. Am sez, when the presence of our loved ones is "so often deprived . . . on earth."



But what, absent any evidence, and w/ a plenitude of conflicting scenarios, can you say about it? I leave it at this: those we love, dwell in Love---whether that's Heaven, sleep, the Garden of Earthly Delights, peaceful oblivion, Paradise, reincarnation to a better life, the Bosom of Abraham, whatever. They're with God, in God, the God/dess Who is Love. Forever.



Thornton Wilder put it beautifully at the end of The Bridge of San Luis Rey:

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But soon we shall die and all memory of those . . . will have left the earth, and we ourselves shall be loved for a while and forgotten. But the love will have been enough; all those impulses of love return to the love that made them. Even memory is not necessary for love. There is a land of the living and a land of the dead and the bridge is love, the only survival, the only meaning.

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Can I get an Amen, Somebody?



GG Peace to all Kittens and those we love , across that bridge. Out



*Prayer as found in Day by Day, the Notre Dame Prayerbook for Students.

[wa star]

Willowlicious,



I've married into a SDA family, so I have a good idea what you've been though. Plus I have my own turn-or-burn, it's-our-way-or the-highway Christian family to deal with.



The good news about the SDA is that they have really great veggie food (I love to cook it for my wife), really great ideas about health and diet, and maybe the best medical school in the USA (Loma Linda-- top shelf holistic doctors who aren't currently sold out to big drug companies)



The bad news is that Sabbath caused you to miss watching the X-Files on friday nights (or Miami Vice if you're a old koot like me), and the SDA tried duping into thinking the world was going to end before you finished collage (in that case, screw studying for the SATs!)



When I was 16 , I went and read transcripts of past sermons at the bible thumping church I was raised at, starting in the late- teens (just after WWI) The granddad of the current pastor started preaching that the world was about to end in the mid 1920's. No way things can last till 1930! Too much evil in the world! But 1930 came. Then there were sermons about how the New Deal was the end of the world, and others telling that WWII was the war that would bring Christ back, and then the 60's drugs, sex and rock and roll was the road to Armageddon.



And every week, my pervy youth pastor told me the 1980s were the *last days* For what!?! Hair bands like Ratt and Quite Riot?



The world moves on!



Sorry, I can't help you with the family stuff. I completely understand how loving *true believers* can, on some level, keep you sucked into the whole church deal.



You see, my brother S. is a total sucker for the whole church gig. He believes it, lives his life according to their rules, and is a pretty happy family guy-- except for his bother T (me!) is going to burn in a lake of fire for Sodomy.



But he has always loved me. Back when the kids at school would slap me around most every day, (just to watch me cry) my brother would come rescue me. He'd hold my hand and we'd walk home as kids teased us, and he wouldn't even look at me becuase he was pissed about being in the 7th grade and having a fem whuss 8th grade brother.



But he still always came to save me-- out of the purest christian love. And I will always love him for that and believe that their must be a God somewhere who gave him the courage and patence to help me grow up.



Pain, hate, love and envy.



And when family members die, it all feels sharper, clearer, harder.



Take care, Amy.



Sorry I have no answers for you.

[darkmagicwillow]

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--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 7/16/03 3:12 pm

[The Next Tara Maclay]

Hi all, i thought i'd post in here. Now, I am only 14 so I can't say much so sorry if what i say makes no sense but maybe you will understand.



I only started going to church in the 4th grade by force, I never really wanted to go. I am a Chrisitan but I am not at the same time because I don't exactly believe in all the things that hte Bible says, which is because I don'[t understand it. I go to a Christianish/Catholicish school, where they teach whats right and whats wrong. If we ever sin we hvae to pray about it and ask god to forgive us so we are "Clean" again, I necessisarily don't believe in that since I don't believe that you can actually be "cleaned." maybe it's just me.



If this doesn't make sense I'm sorry but I'm trying to sound like a good adult. I was also told that Homosexuality,Prostitutes and Transeters was wrong, that they couldn't get in to Gods kingdom because they were so called "wrong" I brought this up to my teacher once and asked them what was so wrong baout it and they always say "God Doesn't want it to happen" and they'll show me this stupid verse which is really stupid. So I told them well we shouldnt judge them and they are like we're christians we're supposed to judge, and pity them. once, Just for saying one thing I got sentences for sticking up for what i believe in. They say "Gods children are peo[ple who are straight not gay or violaters of the law." and I'm like "We all sin, so wouldn't that make us the devils children to? Or are we perfect?" and then I got sent out and got in more trouble.



Some things I don't understand is how a so called God created in the earth I mean, what was he before God was created? Or was there always a God to some point? See that's what I don't get. If theres nothing, then there is something... like God.. was there always a God before earth was created?I'm thinking not but people think so...so basically I'm thinkin about being an athiest.



(If this DID not make sense kill me kay? kay.)

[darkmagicwillow]

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Some things I don't understand is how a so called God created in the earth I mean, what was he before God was created? Or was there always a God to some point? See that's what I don't get. If theres nothing, then there is something... like God.. was there always a God before earth was created?I'm thinking not but people think so...so basically I'm thinkin about being an athiest.

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Cosmology is a science today, so I'd recommend not trying to figure out how to twist ancient myths into explaining our present universe. We have a solid grasp of both stellar and planetary formation and find ample evidence for the Big Bang in every direction our telescopes look from the cosmic background radiation to the abundances of elements in the universe which are precisely what we calculate to have formed in such an explosion. There's still stuff we don't know, like how the galaxies became organized into the structures we see today, but the basics we understand.



As for your school, it sounds like you're not going to get anywhere by arguing with them. I'd recommend reading the context of the verses they recommend, as you'll find many commandments they're ignoring from not wearing clothes made of two fabrics (yes, God forbids cotton-poly blends) to not eating shellfish to making regular animal sacrifices. You'll also find that the Jesus of the Gospels is quite a revolutionary, quite a violator of laws and customs. It's an interesting read, whatever you decide to believe.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[wa star]

T.N.T.M,



First off, I doubt anyone's going to flame you for posting your last message. Relax, you're amoung friends (at over 300 posts, you should know this )





I'm sorry that you're getting in trouble at school and wish to tell you that you are indeed 100% right in your way of thinking.



And at 14 you're really old enough to make you're mind for yourself.



But could you please try to do this older (and fatter) kitten a favor? Try not to fight with the teachers at school over anything *gay*. They won't change their minds and it will only cause you to get into bigger and bigger trouble. How are going to write fanfic if you're in detention? or if your folks take your computer away?



I know it makes you mad, but play along right now. Feel free to tell me to mind my own business or even to srew off-- but please, please, please do 3 things for me.



1. erase any history and/or cookies dealing with any *gay* internet sites.



2. Play it cool in school, (remember collage is just a couple of years away)



3. Do not let any Christian teachers, youth leaders or preachers know that you might have questions about your sexuality.



With the deepest love and repect for any young person, gay or straight,



Terry

[BBOvenGuy]

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Some things I don't understand is how a so called God created in the earth I mean, what was he before God was created? Or was there always a God to some point? See that's what I don't get. If theres nothing, then there is something... like God.. was there always a God before earth was created?

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My parents, being math teachers, introduced me to a wonderful little book called Flatland. It's about a square who lives in a two-dimensional world, and what happens when he's visited by a three-dimensional sphere. The square has no idea what the sphere is. The third dimension is something completely alien to him, and there's no way he can grasp it.



That imagery has been very useful to my understanding of God - or rather, to my acceptance of the fact that I can't understand God past a certain point. God created all of space and all of time. That means he must exist apart from and outside of space and time. The question of where he was before he made the universe can't be answered, because in order for there to be a "before," there must first be time, and God invented time.



But what does it mean to say that God exists apart from and outside of space and time? Where is he? What's it like? I have no idea. I can't grasp it any more than a square can grasp what it's like to be a sphere. But I choose to believe that God is there, even if I can't grasp where "there" is.



By the way, there's nothing wrong with questioning your faith. How else are you going to grow? I was never an atheist, but I was a confused agnostic type through much of my teenage years and early 20s. It was just a part of my journey, and I don't regret it. Keep questioning, keep looking for answers - and be willing to let the answers find you.

"The first task of anyone, lest you get canceled, is to entertain people, because they ain't there for message." - Dick Wolf

[darkmagicwillow]

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God created all of space and all of time. That means he must exist apart from and outside of space and time. The question of where he was before he made the universe can't be answered, because in order for there to be a "before," there must first be time, and God invented time.

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The Big Bang was the explosion in which spacetime came into being and expanded and cooled into our current universe. As BBOvenGuy says, you cannot meaningfully ask what came "before" time, that is, before the Big Bang, so many scientifically educated theists place their deity there, safely outside of science's reach. This is good, for religion makes remarkably poor science, and conversely science makes for regretably bad religion.



Christianity has gone through a remarkable voyage from its early days when God was responsible for the fall of every raindrop to the mechanistic age of Isaac Newton where God created the great "clockwork" of the universe and set it in motion then needed to having nothing more to do with it to today when God exists outside spacetime, in a place that we cannot even conceive of.



TNTM, my essential point is that all religions evolve and change over time, despite most of them telling you of their timeless revelations. Just as most branches of Christianity have given up their claim over science, they are also slowly giving up their claims on sexuality. In an age when Catholic Ireland has legalized birth control and is even talking about abortion, I feel hopeful. There are gay friendly churches out there and they're becoming more and more common. You're stuck with your school for a while, but you won't be restricted by their limited views forever.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/12/03 6:54:50 pm

[BBOvenGuy]

Actually, the idea's not a new one. Check this out, from St. Augustine's Confessions, Book XI, written around the year 398:

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You are the Maker of all time. If, then, there was any time before you made heaven and earth, how can anyone say that you were idle? You must have made that time, for time could not elapse before you made it.



But if there was no time before heaven and earth were created, how can anyone ask what you were doing "then?" If there was no time, there was no "then."

---

Augustine may have been way too uptight about sexuality, but it seems he knew a thing or two about cosmology.

"The first task of anyone, lest you get canceled, is to entertain people, because they ain't there for message." - Dick Wolf

Edited by: BBOvenGuy  at: 5/12/03 7:13:48 pm

[darkmagicwillow]

I've read Augustine, and I'm well aware that the idea of a timeless deity is not new. There's always the danger of overgeneralizing when one uses a singular noun, as I did, to talk about a religion like Christianity which consists of so many disparate beliefs, past and present. However, I do think my generalization holds, and I'll try to explain it a bit more clearly this time.



What has changed is the commonly held view of the deity's level of participation in "natural" events. This involvement once was held to occur at every moment of every day, then was restricted to establishing the initial conditions of the universe, that is creating the clockwork and setting it in motion. In a draft corollary of the Principia, Newton wrote "there exists an infinite and omnipresent spirit in which matter is moved according to mathematical laws." Despite his origination of the clockwork idea, Newton put God into the working of the universe to an extent that his successors did not. Today few people if any believe that the moment by moment participation of God is necessary for the movement of the planets, and for more and more people, the participation recedes behind an ineffable barrier "before" spacetime itself.



Of course, there have always been a variety of views on that level of participation, just as there are today with some people believing in a 6,000 year old Earth to people who believe that nothing supernatural is required after the Big Bang occurs. But the generally held belief in the amount of supernatural participation required in everyday events has gradually decreased over time, and that's my point, hopefully a little more clear this time.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/12/03 9:21:56 pm

[pyc2star]

all right...*putting on religion pants (which btw look a lot like cargos from old navy..*shrugging*) and rolling up religious sleeves* i am a bonafide certified...non-practicing minister...i got my doctorate in religious sciences about a year and a half ago and am actually getting ready to go back for my second and be shipped of to heck if i know where america to minister to the masses (not bad for a 25 year old credit manager for Kohls..LOL)...the topic of religion is something i grapple with on a daily basis...i was born and raised baptist however i ventured out after coming out (ok..not RIGHT after i came out..i was only 12 mind you..lol) and found that there were so many people struggling with religion in our community that i wanted to help those in need...those struggling with their feelings religiously vs internally...i have talked to many people who just honestly feel like their religion is SO stiffling that they turn away all together from religion...its amazing that the teachers are condeming those who are just coming to them to learn and NOT to be judged...so in conclusion my point is (ys i DO have one here folks) that from a minister i would like to say to EVERYONE out there that religion has taught you wrong if they have taught you that homosexuality is a sin...there are wonderful places out there where everyone is accepted for who they are...the Univeral universalists is one option...the MCC is another..(they are the gay version of the Baptists)...the ULC is a third option to everyone...and so is Buddhism...keep searching for the truth and you WILL find it out there..

"After one take, Joss did say, 'Can we have one that's less like you're going to sleep together in about five minutes?" - Alyson Hannigan

[ghostinthesnow]

I don't know really where to ask this, so move it if it's in the wrong place? but anyway I've been intersted in Wicca for the longest time, I was wondering if anyone knew where to get started, there's all these books and everything. It's a bit confusing all at once. Any help would be great, thanks.

Baby today, today we die

Forgive us and take away the cries

Baby today we'll die

[justin]

I started out with To Ride A Silver Broomstick by Silver Ravenwolf, which is an easy book to get into.



Or you might want to try either Wicca: A guide for solitary practictioners, or Living Wicca by Scott Cunningham, which are both very informative books

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

[darkmagicwillow]

Religions are often classified with these labels: atheistic, monotheistic, or polytheistic. While it seems counter-intuitive to Westerners, many Eastern religions are atheistic, including Buddhism, Shintoism, and Taoism. While such faiths can be considered spiritual, none of them center around worshipping a divinity, though the devotions some have to people who have become Boddhisatvas is similar.



Early Christians were often persecuted for the crime of atheism. It sounds absurd today, but as they denied the existence of both Roman and local gods, they were guilty of this crime by the standards of the time. As the division between atheism and monotheism is difficult to see, it's hard to see the division between monotheism and polytheism. Christianity has its threefold division of god and more pertinently, angels and saints who communicate the wishes of the divine and receive prayers from believes. How different is this really from the classical Greeks where Zeus had a son Hercules and sent a variety of messengers such as Hermes and Iris who serve a similar purpose as do the angels?



Since recent posts mention Wicca, I wonder how Wiccans would classify their religion with these labels?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/23/03 10:38:28 am

[justin]

There's a fourth category that you missed out. The idea that there are many deities which are really just aspects of one single deity. Unfortunately I can't remember the name of it and since I'm away from for a couple of days I can't check.



Of course this makes the division between the different groups even narrower. I guess which group a religion lies in is in the eyes of the beholder.



Regarding Wicca it's generally in the many deities as aspects of a single deity group.



I say generally since different Wiccans believe different things so there are probably many Wiccans who see themselves as being monotheistic or polytheistic.

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

[maudmac]

There's always pantheism, the idea that, basically, everything that is, is God. All is God, God is all. I'd like that one if I were into the God thing.



Wiccans hold a wide range of beliefs regarded who or what God/Goddess/Higher Power/whatever-you-want-to-call-it is. Most Wiccans believe in some kind of higher power, but they differ in how they see that higher power. The Wicca I'm most familiar with holds that there is a feminine and a masculine aspect to the higher power - a God and a Goddess aspect. Most Wiccans I know put more emphasis on the Goddess aspect, but there are Wiccans who focus on the God aspect, or who either make no distinction between the two or who hold each in equal reverence. Especially during different times of the year - basically, Goddess rules Beltane to Samhain (Spring to Fall) and God from Samhain to Beltane (Fall to Spring).



Whether this makes them monotheistic, polytheistic, or pantheistic...well, you could probably write a whole volume of essays arguing for each in turn. And you might very well be right.



Which is part of what I find attractive about Wicca - it's very open to interpretation and somewhat fluid. However, there are some Wiccans who are dogmatic, rigid, and adhere very strictly to certain rituals. (I know one who even scripts Circle!)



While I very much like the Rede ("And it harm none, do what ye will"), as well as the Threefold Rule, Wicca and I don't really fit together. It'll always be one of my favorite religions, though.

---

there's only one thing
that I know how to do well and I've often been told that you only can do what you know how to do well and that's be you,
be what you're like, be like yourself -TMBG

[maudmac]

, GG, it was like The Race to Pantheism.



I love pondering the whole Good vs. Evil thing. I love the way it stretches my mind into new and interesting shapes. I find that the words themselves are difficult (or possibly impossible) to define. What, exactly, is "evil"? I mean, I understand the word, certainly, but...what my mind keeps coming back to is this belief I have that even things which cause unnecessary harm, are painful, hurtful, destructive, etc., can turn out to be of the good. I suppose it's sort of two different things, really, though. If the result of an act of evil is ultimately good, that does nothing to negate its evilness.



But what I'm saying is that, in a grand cosmic way, I believe that everything that happens has a purpose and our job is to strive to understand its purpose and that we are better (as individuals, as a society, as a species) for having done so. When talking about this, or just pondering it all by my lonesome, I come up against arguments similar to those I know Christians encounter, like, "What can possibly be the purpose of something like a tornado striking a daycare center and killing 30 babies?" or "What good can come of torture and murder and rape and genocide?" ("If God is good, why do bad things happen?")



I would be hard-pressed to look, say, a rape victim in the eye and tell her/him to look on the bright side, there was a lesson in there that she/he needs to learn; that she/he will benefit somehow from having been raped. Is that what I really believe, deep down? I honestly don't know. It's unnerving in many ways.



Sometimes I get immensely frustrated at not having The Answers. But, secretly, I don't really want them. It's mighty fine exercise to ponder these things. And I kinda think that's why we're here now, to reach and reach and reach, to stretch and learn and grow. It's all about The Journey. For me, anyway.

---

there's only one thing
that I know how to do well and I've often been told that you only can do what you know how to do well and that's be you,
be what you're like, be like yourself -TMBG

[justin]

Thanks Maudmac & GG. Yes Pantheism was the word that I was looking for.

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

[darkmagicwillow]

That's why there were two trees in the Garden of Eden. Westerners ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and have been concerned with that question ever since, while Easterners ate of the Tree of Life and have thought about reincarnation and rejoining the Oneness of the universe.



Being raised in the West, dualism is hard for me to escape and deal with, more in the mind/matter sense though than in the good/evil sense. I really want a different word than exist to deal with mental constructs. I don't care what Plato says: circles and the rest of geometry don't exist, they inist, which is my current word for mental constructs exist.



What does this have to do with good/evil and monism? Well, good and evil are judgements that we make. Therefore the difference between good and evil doesn't exist, it inists, and therefore isn't a problem for everything that exists being one. Does that make sense to anyone?



I haven't heard of Matthew Fox, but I have read that some religions are quite happy to accept Jesus as another manifestation of the Buddha or whatever figure they may have.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[fairydust]

Okay, well my whole life, I was raised as a Methodist. My dads whole side of the family is Catholic, and my mom's is Methodist. I'm the only non Catholic on my dad's side....brings about some issues.

My dad was re-baptised about a year and a half ago as a methodist, so now we're kinda the "family outcasts" so to speak....

I have been pretty happy growin up in the Methodist faith, but I've always held an open mind. I don't believe in everything, but I believe in most of it. Mainly the reason I stick by it is because #1 it sorta saved my life, #2 it was my gramma Faye's, she died a few years ago, but based her whole life on the Methodist religion....and I just want to try and find what it was that kept her going strong for so many years.

Basically, I am labeled as a Methodist, but I believe in just about everything. I have a buddah in my room, and I have crosses, and astrology stuff, and a lot of books on different religions. I kind of combine them all as my religion....I am pretty sure I'll always be christian, but I am always willing to look at things in a new light.

My friend Travis has this "secret society" called the Mystic Circle, I guess they are all over the world, but he leads the one here. He asked me to join because of my beliefs in so many things. Im not judgemental about religion at all. It's all a matter of interpretation I guess....*shrugs* It's just important to have an open mind, because we're all acceptable in different lights, no matter what anyone says.

My dad's side of the family will always think I'm a "mortal sin" because I'm a lesbian, because that's what they have been taught, they will still love me, and I will still love them, but the differences in our beliefs is what causes the problems..not that I like that or anything, but I am glad they still love me, even if inside some part of them dispises me...but I don't really blame that on their religion, it's just what they were all taught...thank God my dad escaped that...lol...he helped me get ready for my first date with a girl gave me his car and everything....lol....

Anyway, all that was just a crap load of rambling, disregard much of it..lol...anyhoo...I'm done....

I LOVE MY KARE-BEAR

[darkmagicwillow]

I found an interesting site, describing world religions and who adheres to them. It's www.adherents.com. Here's a list of the 22 religions they examined by number of adherents:

1. Christianity: 2 billion
   
   
   
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
   
   
   
3. Hinduism: 900 million
   
   
   
4. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
   
   
   
   
   
5. Buddhism: 360 million
   
   
   
6. Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
   
   
   
7. primal-indigenous: 150 million
   
   
   
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
   
   
   
   
   
9. Sikhism: 23 million
   
   
   
10. Juche: 19 million
    
    
    
11. Spiritism: 14 million
    
    
    
12. Judaism: 14 million
    
    
    
13. Baha'i: 6 million
    
    
    
    
    
14. Jainism: 4 million
    
    
    
15. Shinto: 4 million
    
    
    
16. Cao Dai: 3 million
    
    
    
17. Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
    
    
    
18. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
    
    
    
    
    
19. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
    
    
    
20. Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
    
    
    
21. Scientology: 600 thousand
    
    
    
22. Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand
    
    
    

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[JJtheCool]

Quote:

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4. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million

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Does that distinguish between those who are this way by chance or by force (i.e. those in Communist countries)?



Currently, I'm Agnostic {by choice}. I was born Roman Catholic, got baptized and all, but haven't attended a service in almost two decades. My mother was more religious than my dad, courtesy of my dad's mom, oddly enough, and assisted at mass at a church in Scottsdale (Arizona). Because of this difference in religious participation, my brother and I really didn't have much of a Catholic upbringing, one of my mom's dying regrets (she tried, though, sending me to a weekly youth group, but there was a middle school bully who attended as well and did his best to make me 'uncomfortable' to say the least). Given the uproar w/ the pedophile priests here, it's probably just as well (one of them, Father John Giandolone, worked at St. Joseph's during the time I used to go to mass there).



I just took the Belief-o-Matic quiz, and I identified with Roman Catholicism the least of all the 27 choices. Go figure. Interestingly enough, I identified with Universal Unitarianism 100%. Wasn't it La who pointed towards this site? I think she's tring to subliminally convert me or something.

JJtheCool

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*Sigh*