The Scary "Let's Talk About Religion" Thread

[xita]

Anyway here are scans of the booklet I was talking about earlier. Apparently they were being handed out after the movie.



xita.org/christ/

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[maudmac]

Interesting. I wonder what Jesus would do if he had the money to have those expensive shiny things printed up...

---

I have no professional training. I already gave my best. I have no regrets at all.

[jixer]

Hello Kittens-



Probably wasting his money on the poor, trying to reach marginalized people, and encouraging people to waste their time praying and being nice to losers. Probably a peacenik too. You know the type.



Jixer

[darkmagicwillow]

---

I haven't seen it and have no intention of seeing it. I have been required by corporate to create a display around the book. Which I did. I even incorporated the suggested titles. But I also included "Who Really Killed Jesus" by Crossnan and the novel "Lamb, The Gospel according to Biff" by Christopher Moore (which I highly recommend: poignant, sad and funny - all good). Quietly subversive, that's me.

---

Good choice with the Crossan, Mel. It's good to see you posting again. I was thinking that it would be good to hear from you on this discussion.



maudmac wrote:

---

I think Jesus was a fine man, a good teacher, and a person worthy of emulation.

---

I'm not sure that there was such a person as Jesus. Despite what some Christian apologists claim, the amount of evidence for Jesus's existence is slim and not at all in the same class as the mounds of the evidence we have for the existence of major contemporary Roman figures like the Caesars. We have no writings or contemporary images of Jesus, which is admittedly to be expected as he was almost certainly illiterate and was of no great significance to his contemporaries, but it does make it difficult to see if there was a real person behind the myth.



If the myth of Jesus is based on an actual person or persons, it's difficult to know who they actually were or what they actually did. Crossan makes a good attempt as any at finding out in his Historical Jesus. Most of the myth of Jesus, from his virgin birth as son of god and the wise men, their particular gifts, and the shepherds to turning water into wine and healing miracles to his resurrection after three days are found in many other contemporary religions in the Mediterranean world. It's clear that much of the miraculous was borrowed from older myths and added to the story of Jesus after the fact. What's not clear is what actually lays underneath those additions.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Gatito Grande]

dmw, it really depends on what you mean by "Jesus" doesn't it?



"Yeshua" was a fairly common name in 1st C. Palestine, and what w/ all the Jews Pilate was crucifying for sedition (etc.), the odds that one was named Yeshua are huge.



I have no problems w/ the idea that miracle stories were added later (from a mixture of sources), that there were other contemporary teachers/sources of wisdom. Heck, I'm not even hung up on a physical resurrection: I believe that any Christology which reduces the Resurrection to a 3-days late resuscitation ("Paddles, Holy Spirit . . . Clear!" ) is just that, a reduction.



However (and I'm not really trying to draw on Biblical scholarship here, though some of my seminary ed may inform my beliefs), there are aspects of "Yeshua bar Yosef" (from Nazareth in Galilee) which ring so true, so uniquely that it persuades me that there was such a person (and furthermore, in an incomprehensible paradox, this person somehow was God, but that's a whole 'nuther level of belief).



When I think of the essence of Jesus' ministry, I think of the Overturner: physically, in the form of the Temple moneychanger story, but in his teaching, throughout his life. The first shall be last (and vice-versa). The cursed shall be blessed (and vice-versa).



Then there were the stories: those he told, those about him. I've never forgotten the sermon I heard that said that Jesus' "Good Samaritan" parable would have been heard by his (vanilla) audience as "the Good Skinhead." One of my very favorite stories about Jesus is w/ the Samaritan "women at the well" (John 4:1-41). All the taboos Jesus was breaking by merely having this conversation (nevermind what he said) are incredible!



Combine all this, with the distinctly un-Jewish "this is my body" of the Last Supper (liturgically, the heart of my faith), then, en total, I am convinced of the Realness of this person, if not his historicity in every detail.



GG And if not, see "Puddleglum's Confession" in The Silver Chair (from "The Chronicles of Narnia" by C.S. Lewis): I believe it anyway! Out



ETA: Glad you liked it, Doctor! (I wasn't even thinking of you---just every TV cliche' medical resuscitation scene )

Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 3/9/04 2:26 pm

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

---

("Paddles, Holy Spirit . . . Clear!" )

---

Ok, that cracked me up

[Warduke]

Living my life according to someone who may or may not have existed and on a book that was written by men and is full of mistakes and contradictions is not enough for me.

---

Firefox: One Browser To Rule Them All.

Edited by: Warduke at: 3/9/04 7:06 pm

[Tempest Duer]

What he said.



I think that Jesus probably existed, because like GG said, Yeshua was a common name. If he didn't, then a number of people who became the image of him probably did.



I do think that if he existed, he was a good man, and one worthy of admiration.



Oh, and here's my current opinion on the whole death story: The damn conservatives killed the guy for having a different idea or two.

Willow: Hey Buff. One more thing. Buffy: Yeah? Willow: I’m gay. Buffy: Okay, Will. Xander owes me ten bucks.

~Remember to Breathe by Yellow Crayon

[Jennpurr]

I feel and know in my heart that he exists. That's enough for me.



Jen

---

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"And when I close my eyes I can see Him hanging there, Oh the precious wounded Lamb of God; All the majesty in this world cannot compare to the glory; The beauty of the body, That was broken for our forgiveness..." ~ Avalon, "The Glory."

[Tempest Duer]

I can't be Christian because I believe that people are fundamentally good.

Willow: Hey Buff. One more thing. Buffy: Yeah? Willow: I’m gay. Buffy: Okay, Will. Xander owes me ten bucks.

~Remember to Breathe by Yellow Crayon

[xita]

Tempest Duer, I like your reply.



I can't be a religious person. I respect faith and I respect people who believe and whose faith influences their life. I do not understand organized religion and I never will. Christianity is down on the list for me precisely for the intolerance of other religions: if you don't believe as I do, you will not be joining me in heaven.



The only times I have felt the pull of my christian/catholic upbringing is when I am afraid. I don't think fear should be a motivator for faith. I live a good life and I am a good person, I don't need belief in something to follow my morals and ethics.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[Tempest Duer]

Nice comment as well Xita, albeit a bit longer than mine.



To be honest, I think that religion has outlived its usefulness. Originally, people probably came up with religion to keep people behaving, because hey! Don't kill or steal because I say so doesn't sound nearly as appealing as don't kill or steal because if you do you'll suffer for all eternity after you die.



Okay, so that's not a particularly articulate way for me to put it, but to be honest I'm just putting down my thoughts and not trying to think of the best way to express what I have to say.

Willow: Hey Buff. One more thing. Buffy: Yeah? Willow: I’m gay. Buffy: Okay, Will. Xander owes me ten bucks.

~Remember to Breathe by Yellow Crayon

[Gatito Grande]

Quote:

---

Christianity is down on the list for me precisely for the intolerance of other religions: if you don't believe as I do, you will not be joining me in heaven.

---

xita, I trust you realize that not all Christians believe that (I certainly don't).



The whole "are humans basically good?" question is a sticky-wicket. Christians affirm that humans---like the rest of Creation---are created Good (Mozel Tov!) . . . but are "fallen". That's another way of saying "weak". From my POV, that's born out: humans are capable of almost unimaginable graciousness and nobility---yet more often than not, screw up again and again. That's not the same thing as saying humans are intrinsically bad . . . just that we're not all we could be. All we're supposed to be. (and "religion" is humanity's various methods and suggestions---usually w/ some thought given as to What/Who is behind such methods,etc.--- for getting us to What We're Supposed to Be).



GG Jen, I agree that, in the end, it is the heart (conscience) which makes (or doesn't make) the leap of faith. But the conscience, to be used properly, has to continually be informed, to learn, to grow. "Knowing in my heart" doesn't cut it, at the expense of failing to use one's mind."When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I gave up childish ways." (I Cor. 13:11) Out

[xita]

Quote:

---

I trust you realize that not all Christians believe that (I certainly don't).

---

I know that completely. And I don't dislike Christians, I dislike organized Christianity that for the most part maintains that ideal. So yeah I know there is a difference, I wish Christians like you were the more vocal majority.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[darkmagicwillow]

As easy as it is to use such labels, no self-aware person is simple enough to be labeled good or evil. Therefore, I think the whole question of whether people are fundamentally good or evil is meaningless.

---

The whole "are humans basically good?" question is a sticky-wicket. Christians affirm that humans---like the rest of Creation---are created Good (Mozel Tov!) . . . but are "fallen". That's another way of saying "weak". From my POV, that's born out: humans are capable of almost unimaginable graciousness and nobility---yet more often than not, screw up again and again. That's not the same thing as saying humans are intrinsically bad . . . just that we're not all we could be. All we're supposed to be. (and "religion" is humanity's various methods and suggestions---usually w/ some thought given as to What/Who is behind such methods,etc.--- for getting us to What We're Supposed to Be).

---

While religion has been used as an attempt to explore human nature and design a society around it, it suffers from an intense conservatism which limits its ability to use our new understanding of human nature from modern biology. Of course, religion is not the only type of dogma that suffers from that problem. Marx's dogma that humans are a blank slate is equally pernicious and resulted in human disasters of unprecedented scale, and the modern American dogma of the free market and capitalist man is equally uninformed and will lead to similar results if left unchecked.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Hemiola]

You bring up an excellent point, dmw!



The same basic idea was expressed by Joseph Campbell in his famous PBS series. Religions, he explained, tend to be "stuck" in the paradigms of the time in which they were created. Thus, while Christianity was spreading rapidly, worshippers of the Greeks gods were probably singing something like:



[*to the tune of "Gimme That Old Time Religion"*]

"Gimme good old Aphrodite,

Though she only wears a nightie,

Gimme good old Aphrodite,

She's good enough for me!"

[Jennpurr]

Hey kittens,



Anyone have any words of wisdom for me? I'm being baptized tomorrow. I'm kinda nervous... not to have it done, but to stand in front of all those people.



Thanks for listening/reading.



Jen

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"And though down here I may not understand; I won't let go of the unseen hand; For It holds the reasons why..." ~ 4 Him, "Why?"

[BBOvenGuy]

Congratulations!



Don't worry, you'll do fine. Everyone there will be on your side.



What type of baptism is it? Are you getting "dunked" or "sprinkled"?

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child

[Jennpurr]

Hee... I'm getting, "dunked." A good friend is, "dunking," with me, so I feel a little better knowing she'll be there.



Thank you for the kind words, Bob.



If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to share some pictures after I have them developed. Just let me know.



Jen

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"And though down here I may not understand; I won't let go of the unseen hand; For It holds the reasons why..." ~ 4 Him, "Why?"

[Gatito Grande]

Dunking is good. (I'm glad I was made a "Royal Priest" at age 5 months, but if I'd been dunked, I mighta drowned! )



Baptism is such a rich source of meaning: on the one hand, it's just an "outward sign" of your joining the Church. It's also a (re-)birth metaphor: wet and messy, just like the first time. In my tradition, the Episcopal Church, it has the connotation of death (drowning), burial ("six feet under" as it were), and rising again (woo! good to come back up for air). It goes all the way back to Creation: as God brooded over the Original Waters in Genesis, to bring forth life, so comes New Life from the waters of baptism.* It also represents the waters that parted ("Red Sea" ) so that the People of God could live in freedom.



What Bob said about everyone there being on your side: and not just the living, but the whole "cloud of witnesses" stretching back 2000 years!



But remember, Jen: it's not all about special robes, and getting wet (and maybe an after-church party in your honor?). "When Jesus calls someone, he says 'Come and die.'" You have to die daily to self. Take up your cross daily, for the life of the world. That's what being a Christian means. It can be hard, and even lonely (even---especially---among other Christians, of the narrow-minded variety ) . . . but you're never alone. There's all those witnesses---past, present and future---and there are the "Everlasting Arms" to the end (and beyond).



GG Welcome to the Body of Christ! Out



*In Genesis 1:2, the word in Hebrew literally means "brooded over", like a chicken on her eggs! Cool female God-imagery, eh?

[darkmagicwillow]

---

It is hard being a Christian at times, in today's world

---

Ummm...why? I'm always puzzled when I hear this from people who live in the most Christian developed country in the world (as I'm assuming you do from your web site and posts.)



Being a Jew can be hard in the U.S., when American Christians continually attempt to assimilate your religion under the rubric of "Judeo-Christian" values, as you try to stop yourself from their laughing at their focus on the 10 Mosaic Commandments, only 10 of the 613 commandments Jews are supposed to obey, instead of on the 7 Noachic Commandments that all people, including non-Jews like Christians, are supposed to obey.



Believing to a religion outside of those two is obviously difficult as most Americans view only those two as legitimate religions. And of course, being an atheist is equivalent to declaring yourself immoral and anti-American in the eyes of most Americans, so that's generally been the worst choice, though with the "war on terrorism," Islam is likely as bad.



If you live in the U.S., being a Christian is the default and easiest choice. Why do many Christians say it's hard, with many even going so far as to claim that they're being persecuted for not being able to force their religious beliefs on others?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 3/21/04 7:55 am

[Jennpurr]

Thank you, sweetie.



It is hard being a Christian at times, in today's world, but I can't picture/imagine my life any differently. It's worth it, to me.



Jen

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"And though down here I may not understand; I won't let go of the unseen hand; For It holds the reasons why..." ~ 4 Him, "Why?"

[Gatito Grande]

dmw,



What you see here are some Kittens encouraging another Kitten in a decision she's made. This isn't about debating religion (by definition, the religion of a Kitten is compatible w/ the raison d'etre of the Kitten board, or else they wouldn't be here).



Having said that, being a Christian is hard, in today's world, as in any other. Just as it is hard being a Jew. Just as it is hard being a Muslim. Just as it is hard being a Buddhist. Just as it is hard being a Hindu. Just as it is hard being an Unitarian.* It's hard to follow a religious path, if you care about living up to the ethical standards of that faith. Religion wouldn't exist if it didn't call us to live beyond ourselves, to take the difficult road of living for others.



I invite all Kittens to extend their support to Jen, just as we would to a Kitten embarking upon any challenging journey: a religious commitment, a new career path, a Big Move (e.g. to another country), a marriage.



GG It isn't about the destination, it's about supporting each other along the way. Out



*I assume that Wiccans probably have some ethical precepts to follow as well---I just don't know enough about them to comment (didn't want Wiccans here to feel I overlooked them ).

[justin]

Quote:

---

*I assume that Wiccans probably have some ethical precepts to follow as well---I just don't know enough about them to comment (didn't want Wiccans here to feel I overlooked them ).

---

Actually there's just one ethical principle that is universally followed by Wiccans



Eight words the Wiccan Rede Fullfil,

An ye harm none, do as ye will.



There's also the threefold law (remember the threefold law ye should, three times bad and three times good) which is basically just a realisation that our actions have consequences that reflect back on us. So it's arguably more a case of enlightened self interest than an ethical precept.



GG, what I think you're saying is that setting yourself a set of ethical principles and living by them is hard. I agree but that difficulty is irrespecitve of whether those principles are a part of a certain religion or just down to you wanting to be a good person.

Postel's Prescription: Be generous in what you accept, rigorous in what you emit.

[urnofosiris]

I think dmw, justin and maudmac said it better than I can, but I won't let that stop me.

I think I have an 'easier' life than a lot of people living in this world, but I have my share of problems and my life might have been harder if I had not been living in a a country where the majority is atheist (or at least non practicing religious) nowadays, but I do not believe I have it easier because I have no religion. I try to live by my own ethical standards and that can be difficult too at times. So I feel whether being a member of a certain religion (or not) can add difficulties to life probably depends on where you live. I have a hard time believing that being a Christian in a country like the US is harder than being a member of any kind of other religion or an atheist. That is not the same as saying it is easy, it just sounded to me like being a Christian is harder than not being a Christian and I don't think that is fair to those that are not. It can be hard for us all to be who we are.



Anyway, Jen I wish you well. I hope you will have a great day tomorrow. Seeing as you are getting dunked my words of wisdom would be: close your mouth and plug your nose.

Edited by: DrG at: 3/21/04 11:48 am

[maudmac]

There's plenty of room in this thread for people to encourage and debate one another. This thread is for all manner of thoughts about all religions.



In my opinion, it's hard to live in this world, period, whatever your religious beliefs or whether you have any at all. In a mostly Christian American, non-Christians (like myself) can get quite a lot of abuse. I have some very scary memories of being harassed mercilessly in school by some "Christians" for not being one of them, and you know what? That was hard. And now, just walking down the street, I am not safe from people coming up to me demanding to know whether I've accepted Jesus as my Savior and then harassing me the rest of the way down the street when they find that I haven't and won't. I'm not safe in my home from people knocking on my door with the same question and the same reaction.



This is not to say that it isn't hard to be a Christian, I'm not saying that at all. I'm only echoing justin in saying that it's hard for all of us.

---

I have no professional training. I already gave my best. I have no regrets at all.

[darkmagicwillow]

GG, I wasn't attempting to debate Jen or anyone else about her religion (though that would be a topical discussion on this thread), but rather I was asking a question about something I've found especially puzzling in the last few years--why do American Christians frequently state that it's hard to be part of their governmentally and culturally supported majority?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 3/21/04 1:22 pm

[hot monkey luv 66]

I was browsing through, and i don't know if anyone has asked this yet, or ever, but...



I wanted to know what your views are on being baptized at birth. Should parents do that, or wait until the child is old enough to decide what he or she believes in on their own.



I was baptized at birth, and i was put in Catholic schools until high school, and i always felt like they were trying to push me to believe in something i knew i didn't. In my opinion, i felt like they were [and still are] trying to push Christianity on me, even though, I'm honest with them and constantly remind them that I don't have the same beliefs as them. And yet, they still continue to act like it's just a phase, and once i realize that they're 'right', then I'll feel soo embarassed that I didn't believe in what they told me was the truth.



I'd love to know what you guys think on this topic... and I hope I didn't offend anyone with my comments on this. but yeah... if I did, sorry.



--monkeyluv--

[Jennpurr]

DMW,



I didn't think you were trying to debate with me or anything. I just wanted you to know that and I wanted to try to answer your question. Bear with me.



Um... I probably should have re-worded my response. Being a Christian, to me, is easy. That's the easy part. Why I think it's hard to be a Christian in today's world is because of how different we all are. But then again, our diversity is what makes us unique.



The two Churches I am attending right now are so different, yet so much the same as far as the atmosphere. I feel so at home and like part of a family. It's remarkable really. I'm blessed.



When it's hard for me, is when I meet someone who has totally different beliefs than me or different values. I try not to judge them for that because, I don't have that right. It's just so hard for me to relate to them and I hate that I feel that way. I like people and I like talking to people, but I hate the judgmental thoughts I tend to have at times. That's why it's hard for me.



Another reason... it's hard being a Christian and being gay. I acknowledge that I am both and I am proud of that, but it's hard. You have some people out there who say you can't be gay and love God at the same time. I don't agree with that. Others say, you can't be saved and be gay. Again, I don't agree with that. I still sometimes wonder if I have done the right things in my life and if on my day of judgment, I will be the person that Jesus wants me to be and I hope that, that person is enough to walk with him for the rest of my eternity.



Sure, I go to church. I have been saved: I accepted Jesus as my savior and I DO believe that he died on the cross for my sins as well as yours. I have now been baptized, as it is written in the Bible and I feel so much different now. My heart feels lighter and I feel full of love. I know that it's God's love that is coursing through me and it feels wonderful. I can't describe how good it feels.



Anyway... I'm rambling and I'm not sure if I have even made a point. I guess what I wanted to say was, it's difficult to be a Christian in today's society because of all the hatred and violence that goes on. Yes, being an American and being accepted as a Christian is humbling, but that's not all of it. I want to be the type of Christian that Jesus was/is. I want to be able to love everyone and not judge them. I know, however, that I will never be able to do that. For one reason: I'm not perfect. God's love is perfect and that is something that I can or never will be.



I'm not trying to preach and I'm sorry if I have come across as doing that. I have one more dilemma and I'll share it now and say I'm sorry up front if I offend anyone. I try to live my life by the Bible. I haven't read the whole Bible, but the morals that I have and know, I try to stand by. Do you know how hard it is to be a 24 year old virgin? Okay, let me ask you this. Do you know how hard it is to be a 24 year old virgin, lesbian, Christian? It's very hard. I want to have a relationship and be happy, but I don't know when or how that will ever happen. Most of the girls that I have met, don't want to save themselves for commitment or marriage. That's what I'm trying to do. I believe in that. I don't want to have sex until I'm married, but I don't see when that will ever happen unless George Bush drops this ban thing he's so adamant about.



Why, you might ask me? Because it's what I believe in and it's how I feel. I'm not asking any of you to understand anything I have wrote. I guess... I just don't want any of you to judge me for my convictions.



I appreciate you listening and reading and I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. If anyone has any questions for me or wants to talk to me by e-mail, feel free. I'm a very open person and I'd love to talk to any of you.



Thanks again,



Jen



P.S. I forgot to answer another question.

Quote:

---

I wanted to know what your views are on being baptized at birth. Should parents do that, or wait until the child is old enough to decide what he or she believes in on their own.

---

I think, and this is just my own opinion... I think that baptisms should take place when the person is old enough to understand what they are doing. Baptizing children is beautiful... it's a beautiful ceremony to God and the child's family, but in my own opinion, it's somewhat useless. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the person being baptized acknowledges Jesus as their savior and is being born again and asking forgiveness for their sins... cleansing their soul as some people say. To me, a person would have to be old enough to acknowledge that and actually understand what they are doing.



That's just my opinion though.



P.S.S. Some of you may have had a good laugh if you could have watched my Baptism today. I accidentally slipped when my Pastor was tipping me back in water and I basically fell on my butt. I almost tried to baptize him as well. It was funny. Gave me and everyone there a good laugh. So, before everything was said and done, I was dunked twice.

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"And though down here I may not understand; I won't let go of the unseen hand; For It holds the reasons why..." ~ 4 Him, "Why?"

Edited by: Jennpurr at: 3/21/04 5:39 pm

[BBOvenGuy]

So Jenn, are you still planning to share the photos from your baptism?



Seriously, I'm glad everything went well.



As for whether parents should baptize their infant children or wait until the children are old enough to decide for themselves - I can understand the reasons for waiting, but I don't have a problem with not waiting, either. As an Episcopalian, I was baptized as an infant, but when I was in junior high I went through Confirmation Class and ended up being "Confirmed" by our Bishop - so I still had an opportunity to make my own choice of my own direction. The Catholic church has something similar. Other denominations probably do too, but I don't know what they are.

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child