Sex? Yes, Please! (Or not?) The sexual ethics thread

[WTJunkie]

Hi Sysnootles! I just sent you a very long-winded message regarding your other question,but I also addressed the pool issue. Thought I would expand on that since you just asked more specific questions.



Chlorine is a germ killer, so I don't think you should get an infection - but some women - not all - may find it an irritant. (Especially if you get a bit "rough" ) If you are using "equipment" the pool might be difficult if you need to use lube. Yes, I have made love in a pool, but not with toys. It was mostly just naughty groping (like, gee do you think the people at the end of the pool can tell what we're doing? ) But I'm happy to say it had no adverse effects. But your mileage may vary, every body is different.

-WTJunkie

Edited by: WTJunkie at: 6/14/04 1:10 am

[sprhrgrl]

without breaking anybody's confidentiality, my husband and i live about six blocks from the seattle toys in babeland and spend far too much time and money there.



or we used to. our focus on sex and the assorted attachments that we onclude with it has lessened lately, which is okay. we're having sex once every couple of weeks instead of once every couple of days, which is okay (as long as it doesn't always stay this way).



but i'm having trouble because i'm not used to this, and jerking off isn't much of an option in our one-bedroom apartment, especially because the wall between the bedroom and the living room doesn't go all the way up to the ceiling.



and i've often cried after sex, but now. . . the last time we had sex i sobbed because i had missed that closeness with him so much. we're very touchy in general and i'm missing that a lot too, but there were so many tears.



and. . . yeah. i'm not sure where i'm going. i'm afraid of how long this is going to last and i'm afraid of the small perk of hope that whenif my husband goes on testosterone his sex drive will be higher (he's trans, and testosterone does that to you, but it's a lame thing to hope for and who knows how long it'll be until that actually happens) and i'm just tired of things being tricky everywhere and afraid that we're suffering genderqueer bed death. except that we're not, because when we have sex it's great. it's so rare.



and i don't know if i'm asking for help or advice, or if i'm just whining to whine and try to get it all out. i'm sorry.

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara (Dead Things shooting script)

Edited by: sprhrgrl at: 7/20/04 6:35 am

[Gatito Grande]

Oh honey, this thread is all about the TMI! For example,

Quote:

---

jerking off isn't much of an option in our one-bedroom apartment, especially because the wall between the bedroom and the living room doesn't go all the way up to the ceiling.

---

Let me, Gatito Grande, identify myself as a Paragon of Degeneracy(TM), by admitting that I've have done it---the Jerking Off---in public, on a train (y'know: big clackety-clack car, hundreds of seats?) . . . twice.* My point being, if there's a will (of Horn-Dogness), there's a way (to wank!).



Beyond that, I'll ask the obvious: have you spoken with your partner about how you feel? (i.e., the not-getting-it-enough factor---perhaps among other things). Going on T increases libido for most guys, but not all . . . and you shouldn't assume, in the case of your partner, that increased libido will necessarily equate to more sex w/ you. Not if you don't discuss the issue w/ him.



So, sprhrgrl, here's where I go from being "handy" in one way , to wagging my finger atcha : Talk To Him!



GG . . . and then, if you *still* need to let your fingers do the walking (the toys do the humming---whatever), your partner will understand if there are any, um, "provacative" noises coming over the dividing wall. Hmmm: maybe he'll even wanna join you? Out





*OK, lemme qualify exactly how outre' this was: each time, the cars (on the Chicago-WashDC line, out in the boonies) were less than half-full (no passengers immediately around my seat: the lay-back kind), it was the middle of the night, w/ the lights turned down, and I was under a blanket. Still and all . . .

[sprhrgrl]

yes, gg. we've talked about it and talked about it and talked about it and talked about it. so much. he knows why i cry and he knows that i miss him.



the t bit is hyperbole, mostly. the issue is a lot that his libido is pretty much gone, which is funny because we used to match each other that way. he's been recently having some trouble with it because he's been pondering a lot of stuff and we've talked about it and talked about. . . yeah, i went over this.



and i'm doing my best to be supportive of that, and help him through things and stuff - but it makes me squirmy. in more ways than one.



and noises over the wall he doesn't approve of, me jerking off while he's asleep he doesn't approve of, not because he's controlling but because it's awkward for him. . . and tricky.



on the tmi boat, er, train, er, he gets turned on during takeoff on airplanes. or used to. that's all i'm going to say.

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara (Dead Things shooting script)

[dekalog]

sprhrgrl - I came across an article recently while discussing this very thing with a friend of mine that is in a similar situation. I don't know if it will help at all, but thought I'd share.



-----------------------------------------------------------



Upon the Old-Fashioned Pleasures of Seduction

How do I get my partner to have sex more often? This seems to be the most important subject on many people's minds. The Contessa is pleased that they are not saying, "My partner doesn't have sex as often as I'd like so how should I go out and find six more lovers who will understand that my SO thinks I'm monogamous." There is an entire art devoted to convincing someone who has shown less than an interest in sex that they truly want more--with you. That art is seduction, and it has been practiced for centuries. Sad that it has fallen into disuse.



How does one begin a seduction? First, the Contessa advises that one drop the subject of sex entirely. Whining, browbeating and guilt-tripping do not fire anyone's lust. No, the secret trick to seduction is to concentrate on your partner's needs and desires, with the assurance that in the end that will include meeting your own agenda. After all, we are talking about seducing someone who has already shown some interest (by taking marriage vows or buying real estate), so one must be subtle.



The first phase of seduction is to begin to say nice things to your partner. Compliment him or her on their looks. Comment that this garment or that scent is so sexy, that their skin is delicious, that their hair or mouth or eyes are devastating. Do this right before going out or to work, so that it is obvious the compliments are not meant as a lead-in to immediate gratification; that the compliments are genuine. Do this often. Make it a habit. Do not be insincere; this is a person from whom you want sex, so the Contessa assumes you already find this person attractive and desirable. Tell him or her so regularly. Before work is especially nice, so that person will have all day to think about and enjoy the compliment.



After a few weeks of regular compliments--and remember, this must become a habit--the seducer can escalate the campaign just a hair. After all, it would never do for the intended victim to know they were the target of such a campaign. One day during the week, when it is completely unexpected, come home and spontaneously decide to take your love to his or her favorite romantic restaurant. No, the local Burger King will not do. And make certain to do this before someone has begun to cook dinner!



A few days later, do something else "spontaneous" that your partner would love but does not expect. Bring home flowers for no reason. Buy opera tickets. Wash the dishes and vacuum the floors without being asked or complaining. And do not forget to continue the compliments.



During the entire time it is imperative not to make sexual demands on the target of the seduction. The deliciousness is in waiting for that person to come, begging.



Go to a movie. Sigh over how your lover is so much more desirable than any of the stars. How you cannot believe your good fortune that such a person wants you. Hold hands in the taxi on the way home.



Pay attention to those things that your partner considers important. Anything from the recent referendum on the status of Quebec to the local AIDS clinic to the fact that the garage-door opener hasn't been working for the past three weeks. Listen to those concerns, take them seriously. Think of how pleased your loved one will be with your support. Fix the garage door opener (or pay someone else to fix it).



During the entire process it is imperative that you show your love nothing but devotion and adoration. Do not criticize, whine, or find fault. Followed faithfully, this system will fire anyone, of any gender or orientation, to new levels of desire. And so when you stand with that fire smoldering in your eyes, desiring only to love and worship the object of your affections, there is no way that object can object.



----------------------------------------------------------



I know these suggestions may seem trite, but through my own experience and that of my friend I found that sometimes the simplest ways of expressing non-sexually how sexy you find someone gets the biggest response.

[Tempest Duer]

Dekalog, that seems to be sound advice, trite or not.

It's insulting to the whole gender[sic] of rap.



~Eminem

[bytrsuite]

I think sex is great and should be done as often as you want, provided you are safe. Personally, I think I prefer to have an emotional involvement with who I'm having sex with, but, under the right circumstances, a one-night stand might not be so bad. I've never had one, but, I won't rule it out. I just hope it won't be in the ladies room at some bar or whatever.

[cattwoman]

Sex in the ladies room...I can neither confirm nor deny the aforementioned act, but, Kathy there are the gay games starting, you never know what kind of hot mama yama you may meet!

[xita]

I've had a few experiences in the last few years that have made me rethink my relationship to sex. I used to think that I couldn't avoid falling for girls I became sexually involved with.

I learned that sometimes it's hard to have just sex with people you have feelings for. Does anyone understand that?

I also learned that I can have sex with someone and wake up and not feel at all like I have to be with them. I never thought I could enjoy a sexual encounter and not start getting those fuzzy feelings.

I also know that in the end, I prefer having sex when I have all the other feelings to go with it.

[notl33t]

I've always had a very blase reaction to sex in general. I am very sex positive, although I wasn't raised to be that way, and often had sex (when in high school and college) as a friendly thing, not an intimate thing. Way I've always seen it: sex is grand on its own and rarely coincides with love.

I've only had sex when in love twice. I can honestly say that sex with love feels . . . more intense. I feel a deep, magickal fire burning from within myself, especially when my girlfriend and I lock eyes. If I can even talk coherently while we're having sex, its a miracle. Looking back on other partners, I often talked and ordered girls around a lot during sex to keep it interesting. I rarely, if ever, do such a thing with my girlfriend. I think love has everything to do with it. Trust, respect and love are really awesome; to reap those kinds of benefits, there's got to be a lot of communication and time spent on the relationship, separate from the sex.

Honestly, when I've dated (slept) around, my sexual experiences were a lot more hit/miss than anything else. Sometimes I went home satisfied, but mostly I went home angry and upset because the sex sucked. The first time I had casual sex with my current girlfriend (she and I of the vibrant connection), I wanted to toss her out of my life for lying to me because she had recently slept with this other guy but had tried to conceal it from me (we weren't monogamous at the time). Unfortunately and fortunately, he kept calling her all the fricking time and this other, hotter girl was trying to get me in the sack. The sex with my girlfriend was also horrible. She sort of laid down and expected me to "get to it." Yuck. She's learned a lot, but she's still got a long way to go if she expects me to be satisfied with the sex we have. I'm still waiting for a big rocking orgasm to happen someday (one slight problem with sleeping around is that the people you love may not rock your socks in the sack because your sexual experiences are much more intense than they can handle).

Some of my sleeping around sex really rocked! Here are the key ingredients to rocking sex: respect, clear boundaries, reasonable expectations. I also recommend sleeping around with intelligent people who have been around the block sexually, they will be more knowledgeable in navigating safer sex practices. The best sex is safe sex (dental dams, condoms, lube, et cetera...), no matter where you stand.

To sum up, sex is always great even if its just with yourself! Safe sex is the key to being an ethical slut, and love-related sex feels just grand. Or at least that's what I've discovered at the tender, relatively unspoiled age of 22.

[NewRuthRising]

Um, okay, here's my issue.

I'm sleeping with my best friend who is bi. all well and good, but what really bugs me is her attitude that being with a girl doesn't 'count'. I can't really talk to my other friends because if this girl finds out I've told someone she'll kill me (well probably not, but she will stop sleeping with me). Has anyone else encountered this attitude? I'm not trying to change her beliefs, just find a way to balance my attitude against hers without getting annoyed at...inopportune moments.

Which brings me to my second question: am i the only one who finds my mind wanders during sex? It doesnt detract from the experience but when someone asks "What are you thinking", I'm likely to say "Did I leave the bathroom light on?" as opposed to "I love you, keep doing that" Or, if this girl is involved "It sodding well does count!"

[Candleshoe]

It must be really hard for you to balance the two opposing beliefs, I guess. You think you are worth something (or at least you should! I do, and I don't know you) while she seems to think that you don't count. OK, maybe it's wrapped up in a nice little "no woman counts" parcel, but it must still really hurt, honey.

I guess the question really is whether you want (and are happy to get) simple sex (and there's nothing wrong with that) or whether this is actually affecting you on a more emotional level. If you are happy with sex, and can ignore the attitude that comes with it, then go for it! But if you are actually wanting something more, then maybe you need to wonder whether to talk to her about it. I don't know how you could do that, I have no experience of trying to deal with it, I just walked away.

And to your second question: no, you are not the only one. My favourite is to wonder whether she's bored yet....

Feel free to PM me if none of the above makes sense.

[NewRuthRising]

Nonononononono. This is not a girl I want want a relationship with. EVER. I love her to pieces and the sex is great but...just no.

It doesn't hurt me, per se, more my ego I suppose. All that hard work and it doesn't even count! Not to blow my own trumpet (snigger snigger) but that girls gets what she comes for (errr...unintentional, I promise), and I'd like some recognition for my...achievements.

On the "is she bored yet" front: mine is "Surely your back is cramping by now?!"

[Candleshoe]

Aah, I see, you want applause! You could ask her to set up some sort of clap-o-meter, maybe? Not that I'm suggesting that you have the cl...Oh, nevermind, I'm never getting back out of that one

No seriously, I wonder why she thinks it 'doesn't count'? Is it actually to do with you, or to do with something external (which will never be your fault), like her background? Does she realise that you find it tricky to deal with?

[NewRuthRising]

Yeah, we've talked about it, and I know I'm not going to change her mind, so I just need to learn to not get pissed about it.

The weird thing is though, although she says this, most of her sexual experience is with girls and she has fallen madly in love with an older woman, whereas as far as i can see, her reactions to guys have been lukewarm at best.

Still a tad in denial, methinks?

[Candleshoe]

It's never just a river in Egypt, is it?

[NewRuthRising]

Ah hell with it. I still get to have sex with her, even if she doesn't think so.

That came out different than I meant it. I'm not a sexual predator, honest.

[notl33t]

NewRuthRising, that attitude your ladyfriend displays (discounting sex) is weird regardless of orientation. Personally, my ego couldn't handle the hit, and you're a much stronger person than I am in that department. I don't know any guys who, after giving a girl oral sex or a hand job for as long as it takes, could handle hearing "well it's not sex, because you weren't in me." A sore tongue is a sore tongue and an orgasm is an orgasm. And hanging in there while your mind is wandering as well as your hand or mouth can be a real chore . . . I think some courtesy must be paid to sexual partners. At least call it sex.

My girlfriend is really cool. Regardless of whether either of us orgasms, she always calls the sexual type stuff (like making out, dirty talk) we do sex. I think I should reward her with . . . uh, sex? Or maybe a romantic dinner.

[NewRuthRising]

I think both. Sex before dinner. You'll need to replenish your energies.

[JustSkipIt]

NewRuth... I may be way late to the party but my guess is that she's still not comfortable about the whole sleeping with women thing so the easiest way to rationalize it is to say that its not sex. I mean how easy. Imagine if you wanted to do just any damn thing and you could just define it differently. Like you are at the store and pick up a candy bar and put it in your pocket and leave and consider it not stealing (in what crazy dictionary?). It's just easier to her if she doesn't consider it sex and she isn't concerned enough about your feelings to really care that it hurts. Also, since you keep coming back (no pun intended), she figures, how hurt could you be?

Re: mind wandering? Everyone! I mean sometimes not at all but sometimes tons.

[Boschi]

Two cents! Two cents!

Re: "Not counting". Rrrr.... yeah, I have this weird thing with needing to be claimed. Not in the possessed sort of way, in the "yes, something significant did just happen with someone significant" sort of way. Specific words aside, it deserves credit and respect. So I definitely get that.

I don't know you or her, but it does sound a bit like she is just unable or unwilling to claim what she is doing yet. In a sort of young way. So perhaps some growing up is in order. In the meantime, I see nothing wrong with you enjoying it for what it is as long as you take care of yourself. The big question for me would be does this relationship (not Relationship, but it is one of sorts) interfere with you being open to intimacy with others that might be potential Relationship material?

I mean it is real - something does happen. It takes emotional and sexual energy, not to mention time, for sex with her to happen. We all only have so much of that - which is why it deserves respect, credit, etc.

I dunno - I'm meandering.

Also, on the wandering mind front: Ah, this is a bit of a relief to hear this from all of you. My brain tends to stay in the moment, and I've gotten a bit freaky in the past when partners have seemed to have moments of distraction (did I pay the gas bill? O dear, did I remember to give the dog heartworm preventative, what are heterocyclic amines, etc....). So it's nice to hear it's a normal thing.

Which is not to say I can't get their attention if I need to ... ahem.

Right, signing off now.

Regards and respects,

Boschi

[umgaynow]

Sex with a friend is NEVER a good idea...no matter how much you may think it is separate from your relationship and just for fun and that there will be no problems or complications or emotional scarring...there ALWAYS is...I have seen this happen to many people I know...best friends + sex = screwed up dynamic = end of friendship...it's only worth the risk if you have secretly loved each other for years and it's going to grow into a long-term relationship or you aren't that great of friends and you care more about getting some than you do the longevity of the friendship and her continued presence in your life...

I am not exaggerating when I tell you how many times I have seen it happen among friends in the past...the whole concept of fuck-buddies really only works if you are so emotionally closed off that it really is ONLY strictly physical when you do the grown-up...and why would you want to do that to yourself...you could get the exact same amount of initmacy from your right hand and it's not going to key your car if you suddenly want to stop playing with it...you're better off with Good Vibrations...especially when your partner doesn't think it counts cuz you're a girl...you deserve better than that...everyone does...don't let yourself be treated lke a two-legged vibrator...why cheat yourself out of the intimacy, not to mention respect and self-respect that you deserve?

Of course that's just my opinion...but it is based on years of observation not just blowing smoke or conjecture...be careful and take care of you

Sandi/umgaynow

[NewRuthRising]

Wow, this seems like a topic people really care about. I agree with the idea that she just needs to accept who she is, i think, but I do think our physical relationship is nothing more than an extension of our friendship. It's affection mixed with a healthy dollop of desire, and she really isn't the type to go nuts, so I think I'm okay there, but thank you for the concern.

[Hemiola]

Not sure if this would be the right thread for this, but since it involves sexual ethics, let's give it a try......

I'm talking about the FOLEY AFFAIR. It is an astonishing thing in so many ways, but what astonishes me the most are the "excuses" he has been coming up with:
1. I'm an alcoholic
2. I'm gay
3. I was molested myself
and, of course,
4. In some way, this is all the Democrats' fault!
As Bill Maher said on Friday (10/6), why not add that he was always the last to get picked for kickball? I mean, for crying out loud, how could he (or that matter, anyone in the Republican leadership) possibly think that any of these things could justify his behavior?

As I see it, the only good thing that might come out of this is the absolute demonstration of how ridiculous the Republicans were to persecute Clinton over Monica! All of their posturing and bloviating now truly seem silly. The disaster that is the Iraq War has taken away any chance for the Republicans to pretend that they know best how to defend the country--perhaps the Foley Affair will serve to remove any chance they have for posing as "the defenders of morality".

[JustSkipIt]

Oh... I usually eschew news of any sort but I've actually been following this story and I'm pretty disturbed by it. As soon as the news broke, my first thought was "yay, the Republicans will look terrible" but my next was, "He's going to come out of the closet and homophobes can say, 'see gays want to have sex with your children.'' Well, I think both are somewhat true at this point.

But I agree that I've been very offended by his excuses. I find myself particularly offended by the idea that he thinks it explains anything that he was always drunk. I mean could you use that excuse for beating your wife or crashing the car. Well, I did it but I was always drunk and it's the alcohol's fault? He needs to take responsibility for his actions. He needs to realize that what he did was wrong and inappropriate. It would be wrong and inappropriate if he were a straight or gay man. It simply was.

One thing that I've heard is that the Republicans didn't do anything about the issue a year ago because they were afraid they would appear "homophobic?" Uh??? WTF? Are their people thinking that they like gays until now? They're pretty blantantly anti-gay in their policies and they're ont he record with that so who would go, "they outed this proposed (alleged) child molester, what homophobes!" That one is just ridiculous.

And...

The whole thing about the Democrats making it up or leaking it to influence the elections? Uh, and take our minds off the wonderful economy and successful war in Iraq?

Ok, I've ranted here but I am also very disturbed about the entire thing.

[NewRuthRising]

Hello all.

So this girl (from previous posts) has moved away (just as I get my back fixed, typical!) and decided she's "99.99% gay". She even tested this theory by sleeping with a guy (don't even get me started!). However, she still insists that it 'doesn't count' when two girls have sex. She's incredibly touchy about the whole subject and in a recent conversation with her my brain started screaming the phrase "internalised homophobia" at me. I'm gettin kinda worried that she'll wind up completely miserable, but she reeeeeally don't like to talk about it, especially with me, since I was the first girl she didn't sleep with.

Any ideas?

[Candleshoe]

Hey NRR! Can I thbrow in my penny's-worth? It's probably not even worth that, but I'll have a go...

If she's moved away, I wonder if the distance might actually help? E-mail and IM can be quite good for letting people feel that they are under less pressure to talk about stuff, and therefore talk more, if you see what I mean?

Can you point her in the direction of someone else who might be able to chat to her? Or a group she can join?

Other than that, I reckon that a bit more time and life-experience will help her to find her own way. We all have to work the relationshippy-gay-straight-bi-who-cares-anyway-fancy-a-shag? stuff out for ourselves in the end, I think. Just be around for her if she wants to chat. And as a side note - it's funny how often ex-whatevers become good friends after the wierdness has gone away. I'm sure she'll appreciate you caring about her in time...