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Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Anything about Willow & Tara, Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson.

Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby AmbersSecretAdmirer » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:59 pm

Joss Whedon is quoted as saying one of the main reasons he wanted Willow to be ulled down from her use of magic was that she had become more powerful than Buffy and that couldn't happen on a show called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", having a supporting character more powerful than the main heroine.

Joss has also stated that he had always intended for Buffy to be a feminine icon, someone for young teenage girls to look up to and aspire to.

So, it makes me think, given that the above two statements are true, was Tara killed because she was in danger of becoming a bigger feminine icon than Buffy?

If this and other boards are to be believed, Tara (and Amber for that matter) was being seen as a great positive role model for young and questioning teens. Add to that the fact that many people saw Tara as a strong figure with strong morals, who had compassion, wisdom and a gentleness that many felt were good qualities. These voices were loud, strong, powerful and consistent.

Was Joss afraid that his feminine icon was about to be eclipsed by this tertiary character? Did this play a part in his decision to kill the character off rather than simply be wounded and leave?

It's a thought.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Kendahl897 » Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:01 am

I think Joss is full of himself at most times and just says what pops into his head b/c he thinks it makes him sound more analytical han he actually his. I take 99% of what he says with a grain of salt
. As for Willow, she was powerful, but it was a different kind of power. Joss just wanted to see her go bad. Dark Witch Willow. Period. Because he thought it would be cool. Tara was the catalyst. As for Tara and Amber, I think ME's biggest mistake, aside from killing her off, was underestimating her popularity and yes, her statuts as an icon to the gay audience. Or more succintly, the popularity of Willow and Tara the couple as icons to the gay community. Comparing them to Buffy is like comparing apples to oranges.

As for Buffy, a role model for young girls? Yeah, seasons 1-5. Season 6? Not unless one thinks that a girl who beats the crap out of a guy then beds him is role model stuff. Or of course, my favorite, the one I felt the need to turn the channel as it was playing out. The scene in 6 where Spike, to show his dominance and power over Buffy, sodomizes her in the balcony of the Bronze. I remember discussions occuring on the KWW at the time. Buffy is season 6 was anything but role model stuff for young girls.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby erickvoshel » Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:39 am

Hi there. First of all, allow me to introduce myself. My name is Erick Voshel. I'm the author of the Strange and Incredible Saga of Willow and Tara. I'm hoping those of you who are reading my report are finding it thought-provoking as well as intriuging. But that's not why I'm posting. Did you know that Joss Whedon rejected Amber for the role of Tara at first because she didn't meet the physical traits he had envisioned for the character. The term Whedon used in an interview for the way he originally envisioned Tara's apperence was "bird-like". It was only because of Marti Noxen's insistance that Amber be allowed to read again that at her second audition that Joss ultimately cast her. And there's no way Whedon would argue with his second--in command about a casting decision, So it makes you consider the possabilty that if it were up to Joss alone he wouldn't have cast her. But wer're ultimately glad that he did. I'm not denying Joss is a good writer. Robert Black and I are just questing wheather he makes good buisness decisions. And the facts say: No he doesn't. Anyway, this is just another point to consider in the Strange and Incredible Saga of Willow and Tara on BtVS. :wtkiss
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Dana5140 » Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:31 pm

Erick: you did a service by bringing the issue back up again. I posted it here, as well as on jetwolf's board and over on the other board the discussions have been rather detailed and thoughttful. Anyway, there is so much to be said on this, and you did a pretty good of raising nearly every issue. I think, though, that the point about Joss and his original thoughts as to how Tara should look were made simply to point out that Marti disagreed and they went with Amber, much to the benefit of the show. I don't really read much more into it than that.

But as for all else you say, I agree. I wish I could comment more but I am momentarily leaving for a week-long bike trip in North Dakota, and will need to dig this thread out again when I get back. [/i]
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby RainbowVanessa » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:04 pm

First I have to say that, um, Spike wasn't sodomising Buffy in the Bronze. Any information about the show from ME indicates that it was regular sex, albeit, not the healthy kind. If that's not enough proof, thinking about the mechanics a little bit should show that you can't just bend someone over sodomise them with that kind of ease, there would have to have been prep. There wasn't prep.

Well, I guess I have to be the odd man (woman) out on this one because season 6 was my favorite season (with the exception of killing Tara, which was horrible - but I did like Willow's rampage...I guess I wished Tara would magically be able to come back or something! This from someone who isn't straight, and who did look up to that relationship as what love between 2 women can be like) . I was watching the show on DVD at a very difficult time in my life, when everything was going badly. It was such a comfort to see the characters on the show go through the very same kind of things I was going through, walking though that dark place. I didn't feel so alone. The story seemed real - so real that the most fake thing about the show was how perfect everyone's hair stayed (I guess I didn't really notice the vampired and magic as being "not real"). As has been said, life isn't all puppies and kittens, and to me, I don't necessarily want to see a show I love dwell in an antiseptic place where troubles, the big kinds, don't touch them. Yes, bad things happened to the scooby gang before, but not like this season, one after the other, after the other, to everyone. Many fans found this too oppressive, but this was exactly what I could relate to, this was my reality. To me the show was like a salve to my life, not because it was entirely an escape to happy-land where my beloved characters didn't have to hurt, but because I saw that the darkness could happen to anyone, that even good people can do things that they regret deeply, not understanding why they do it, and that in the end, things are, mostly, ok. Frienships can stay strong, you can get through it, change things around, and even grow from the experience. Buffy et al was a role model to me not because she was someone great that I could look up to, but because I could relate to her deeply, felt she was real, and feel hope, knowing it was possible to get past this time in my life, and be a better person for it. Because of that season, where otherwise I would have been alone, I wasn't. Someone understood. And the way I felt, the way my life was going, when reflected back at me, seemed important, was validated.

Besides, someone comes back from the dead, is suddenly having to take the full weight of adult responsibility with no help, and can't tell anyone else about their experiences - I mean, can you blame Buffy?

I guess being a role model for young girls is one thing, but to be a role model for someone older, who has experienced the way life changes when you become an adult, and knows what that dark place is like, is to require a different kind of plot arc. And hey, even though I'm not longer a child, I can still use someone to look up to.

I don't think it's fair to judge an icon based on "this one made better, more role-model worthy choices than the other one did". In the end, both Tara and Buffy did the strong, difficult, worthwhile thing. But though Tara was my favorite character in the whole series (and the only I still have a crush on!) you cannot compare her role to Buffy's. There are so many pivitol things in her life which we did not see, like the death of her mother, etc. How do we know what her reaction was, really? Or how self descructive she could have been had she been brought back from the dead? How can we compare that to the reaction we do see in Buffy? It would be like comparing an end of season 7 Buffy to Tara, if Buffy said, yeah, I got really out of touch with life when that happened, I even slept with this vampire jerk. And unfortunately, though there were strong suggestions of Tara's character, her story and character was never developed close to fully. I was always upset about this, that she is not really given a full life on the show. Though I think she would have been a formidable person, her role, and most powerful impact was within a relationship, not a seperate individual. Even when she is not with Willow, it's still very much about the relationship. The strength of character she does show through that time is unfortunately, only a glimmer of the fully developed characters we see. In my opinion, both Faith and Anya, for instance, got more screen time, were fuller people, and less defined by their relationships. Had Tara been given that kind of focus, because she was such a strong character in comparison, then maybe this question could have been asked. But as it stands in BtVS reality, no way was she a bigger icon.

My 2 cents.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby the hero factor » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:57 pm

While s6 is my personal worst. Television viewing experience. Ever. I will agree, RainbowVanessa, that I don't think Tara was a bigger icon than Buffy.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Brianna » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:09 am

Well just say that yes will became too powerful and yes may be more powerful than Buffy but it all was Josh plan he wanted willow at the dark side and the more power she had the more adict to magic she was. Willow had to be too powerful to became the big bad willow.
And about Tara and Buffy... Johs wanted will at the dark side and that couldn't happend with tara loving and keeping her down so Tara had to die. Thought`'ve to agree with the point that Buffy cant be a female icon for teenagers at s6. She was so lost and so scared an vulnerable that couldn be any kind of icon.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby umgaynow » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:14 pm

I think Joss Whedon killed off Tara for one reason only...he is an ego-maniac and an unimaginative one at that...Oh I have an idea lets make Willow go evil and kick Buffy's ass, wouldn't that be cool? Now how could I do that? Well, I could go back to that stupid drug addiction/magic parallel...despite the fact that lesbian sex has already been used as a magic parallel...no hidden message/judgement there...but I need a reason for Willow to go off the deep end...I've already established that she and Tara are soulmates and once she got her back there is no way she would go back on the junk again...Well, I'll just have to kill Tara then...cuz it would be soooo cool if I could use lots of special effects and stuff and have Willow kick Buffy's ass...screw the fans duh-huh

Because Joss loves to play God and screw the fans...any idea he has must be a good idea because he had it...in his mind anyway...he is and has always been an egomaniac...all you have to do is listen to the commentary tracks on the DVD's especially OMWF...it's I did this and I did that and isn't it wonderful...never insert name of actor here did such a great job in this scene

To the question of whether Tara was a bigger feminist icon than Buffy...bigger no, better yes...she was always the most moral and kind and gentle and loving character on the show...apart from resurrecting Buffy she was always the voice of reason and without a doubt the conscience of the show...and once she found out she was not in fact a demon, she moved on and grew to a strong confident woman...all of this makes her a better role model than Buffy whose questionable decisions are too myriad to mention...but bigger? I don't think so...because this society always values kick-ass and flash above spirituality and inner strength in a woman...in a perfect world Tara would be the icon...but as is evidenced by our current government, this is far from being a perfect world

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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Garner » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:17 am

Having Willow eclipse Buffy in power would have made Buffy's role on the show more questionable. Willow needed her power limited in some way in season 6, Josswad just took the wrong road. And given that he liked to read the boards and then do the opposite of what people wanted or to screw with them, I am not as surprised that he decided to kill Tara, that would obviously mess with fans the most. It certainly shows how little a person Josswad can be.

Personally I find Buffy an icon in seasons 1-5 as has been said. In that time she adjusted to being the slayer and losing the fabled "normal life" (which I think is a myth that no one ever has), overcoming great adversity from big bads to her mom's death and losing Angel, to being a strong capable woman. Riley actually said it best when he commented that she made the plan and then executed it, she did it all. Rainbow Venessa is the only one I have heard of that gained something from season sux. I personally was also going through a dark time and found the constant oppressiveness of sux made my life worse, not better, and did not offer the relief I sought. However, I can see how the characters going through hell when one is also in that sort of situation would lend strength and allow one to indentify with the show and characters more. My biggest problem with sux and severed after it is that the Buffy character lost that heroic nature. She no longer seemed to be one to look up to, but became more narrow, sarcastic and almost a charicature of herself. She stopped saving the innocents and was mired in the crap of her own life. While this may be realistic, for me, an icon needs to be able to rise above that crap, work their way out of it, and show that by being true to yourself, your values, your friends, that you can overcome what life throws at you. This Buffy did not do, not really. I also found Season Sux one of the worst things ever on TV, but it shows how diverse real life is that someone took strength from it. At least something good did come out of it.

Was Tara becoming a bigger icon than Buffy? Only for a niche audience (sorry, but GLBT is still not as big as the straight audience). For the majority viewer Buffy will always be more important than Tara. Yes, Tara was heroic, became a great role model for questioning teens and others dealing with GLBT issues, but Buffy represented a broader cross section of women. It is only because of the poor writing and how they warped her character that she lost that icon status, and with it a lot of viewers as well. The Spike Buffy relationship certainly doesn't seem like a role model relationship to me in season sux and certainly not after SR. That sort of stalking/attempted rape should always be punished.

Buffy had five years of being an important icon and role model, unfortunately Josswad chose to throw that away and the last two seasons will always taint what he accomplished.

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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby werewolf123 » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:39 am

Quality not quanity...
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Willow Watcher » Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:43 pm

In my opinion, starting in season 3 there was the beginning of more focus of Willow as for example Vamp Will. Then as time progressed, Willow became more powerful in many ways: magic, self esteem and progression into matters of the heart. Tara was a big part of that.

In season 4, as you all know, Willow and Tara's relationship was the main focus. The Buffy character was there, giving it her all, but sort of shoved into the back ground. I personally wanted more Willow and Tara air time.

In season 5, was focused on Willow getting more powerful, but also the fact that she and Tara had progressed their relationship into something more to where they lived in the same dorm room. OK we all saw the :wtkiss in the "Body". How many people can say that Buffy kissing Angel, Riley or Spike took their breath away. Understandably it was a sad episode but none the less, it DID show the first actual lesbian kiss on television...as far as a show like Buffy.

Season 6, more focus on Willow and her use of magic. The power was developing more and more until she lost the one thing she loved: Tara.
Now here's the ball clincher. The same old crap where 'homosexuality is wrong' so therefore I believe the 'bible thumping community' stepped thier foot in and poof, there went Tara.
Daytime television back then just wasn't ready for gay's on the screen to be shown in the home.

Season 7, still was focusing on Willow. The magic, how she was able to control it and using her ability to give the slayerette's thier power.

So, I believe that Willow was the star that shone brightly in BtVS. But that's my opinion anyway.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Dana5140 » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:34 pm

I believe the 'bible thumping community' stepped thier foot in and poof, there went Tara.


No question you are incorrect on this. If the creator of the show was going to cave to right-wing pressure and the "bible thumping community," he would have done so a long time ago, long before Tara came on the scene. The program is about vampires and witches, and the undead rising, all of which are far more troubling to the evangelicals than one lesbian love affair. It poses no God at all, but lots of demons, warlocks, monsters and balls of green light. You can criticize Whedon for a lot of things, and boy, I do, but not this. Tara was there for 3 seasons, you know?

And though I am not trying to be argumentative, there are a whole lot of people whose breaths were taken away when Buffy kissed Angel, and a whole lot more who did when Spike did- see soulfulspike.com, for example. But, none for Riley. :-)

I do feel that the show was Willow's as much as Buffy's, because I believe that more people experience the show through Willow ( we all have a bit of geek in us) than through Buffy (not too many of us are superheros).
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby DaddyCatALSO » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:22 am

Heckfire, I'm basically evangelical and Tara was my favorite character;I was reading at another board she kinda-sorta started out as a re-do of First-Season Willow since Willow wasn't that nerd-focus charcater anymore by S-4. (Personally, even tho I'm 5' 10" I always identified with Jonathan, before S6 that is.) The right-wing lobby wasn't that significant to ME sinc e _BtVS-w as on their condemned list almost form the get-go.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby RainbowVanessa » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:30 am

Riley was my favorite of buffy's boyfriends! And hot too. I loved them together and I thought he was a very strong, positive male character. I don't know why nobody likes the "good guys", but they never finish last in my books.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby The Rose24 » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:44 pm

I agree. I loved Riley too, but I hardly ever mention him here. I am in the minority.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Garner » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:14 am

I also liked Riley in season 4, but felt he lacked direction or a storyline in season 5, and so it was not the end of the world to see him go. Most people did seem to dislike him, and I guess after Angel he was a bit duller, but he had a lot of potential. I've tried to do a bit more with him and Willow and Tara in little parts of the Journal story and no one's gagged on that. Still, as you said, minority.

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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby erickvoshel » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:49 am

In my opinion, Amber is already a superstar in her own right. She has already written a series of best-selling books, appeared in rather small, but siqnificant roles on the silver screen, will star in the leading role on a Sci-Fi Channel original movie which I waiting patiently for for the past several months by the way. But i am personally looking foward to seeing her play a vampire queen on Supernautral. Her time will come in terms of getting cast in a blockbuster film such as the next Star Trek film perhaps. She could play a young acting ensign aboard the Starship Enterprise on it's first voyage under Captain Kirk or even a hotheaded Starfleet cadet. Or she could appear in a reccuring role as Starbuck's younger sister or a Cylon agent on the new Battlestar Galactica or as Supergirl AKA Kara, Clark Kent's cousin on Smallville. Keep in mind that these are only ideas of where I think Amber's career should go next. Of course I know that it isn't up to me, but I just wanted to know what the Kittens think. :wtkiss
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Knock yourself out » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:37 pm

Garner wrote:I also liked Riley in season 4, but felt he lacked direction or a storyline in season 5, and so it was not the end of the world to see him go


I think you hit the nail on the head – season five Riley was almost redundant – I don’t think Riley (or indeed Marc Blucas) was that dull per se but he certainly wasn’t given much to do except mooch around looking sullen (which didn’t suit him). There is a lovely bit in Family with him and Xander joshing around and that might have made an interesting friendship.

However, nothing excuses As You Were which was an abomination.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Dana5140 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:57 pm

L Word, Erick, think L Word! :-)
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby The Rose24 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:31 pm

Tara is definitely a better icon than Buffy in season six. As a matter of fact, she is the best character throughout the entire season. She is the strong one and the responsible one. Every single one of the show leads fall apart in this atrocity of a season, and they end up turning to her for help. Tara is there for Dawn when no one else is, and she is definitely the reason Willow is on the the road to recovery at first. Tara outshines everyone.

Tara's bigger role is about the only positive thing I can say about season six, and unfortunately, it doesn't last long because of the idiotic decisions made. When Tara died, a big part of the show died too. This is obvious throughout season seven(A lot missing).
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby river » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:05 am

i also think that tara was a bigger icon or a bigger role in season six. she was like the family leader. And always brave and lovely and so good for everybody..
(sorry my english is bad)
Se was always the person who was so sensible and cares for the others.
i hope you understand what i mean :sob
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby billy » Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:54 am

Dana5140 wrote:L Word, Erick, think L Word! :-)


Now that would get me watching The L Word again.

river wrote:i also think that tara was a bigger icon or a bigger role in season six. she was like the family leader. And always brave and lovely and so good for everybody..
(sorry my english is bad)
Se was always the person who was so sensible and cares for the others.
i hope you understand what i mean


Perfectly. I really liked Tara in Season 6 and despite what happened at the end of Seeing Red and thanks to Amber they didn't get the chance to degrade Tara as they did pretty much every other character in the series, but with the exception of OMWF and some W/T scenes I don't watch it anymore. Far too depressing.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby AmbersSecretAdmirer » Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:07 am

Debate is shaping up nicely. Maybe I should have called it "Tara - Was she a better icon than Buffy?" However, I think it should be said that I think one thing has come through in this debate both her and on the Essence Board, and that is the great wrmth with which Tara, and Amber, is still regarded with, even 4 years after the stupidity of her death.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Wright » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:08 pm

umgaynow wrote:
...because this society always values kick-ass and flash above spirituality and inner strength in a woman...

Sandi


Is it possible to do both?

I'm sorry to go off-topic, but this is something that I would very much like to know.

I'm currently working on an original story. I'll be honest; I like action, I like "kick-ass and flash," and I'd like to write something like that. However more than that, I want to write something with heart. Something that emphasises "spirituality and inner strength." So can both be done?
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Garner » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:25 am

However more than that, I want to write something with heart. Something that emphasises "spirituality and inner strength." So can both be done?


The obvious answer to that is, yes, of course it CAN be done. BUT, it is not easy. Examples of male characters who are one or the other are pretty common. I think that to really capture something like that you need to look at some of Kirosawa's samurai films, they do a pretty good job of doing both. Though the movie was historically a joke, and I am not a huge Tom Cruise fan (though I don't hate him either), The Last Samurai does a very good job with butt-kicking and inner strength and heart. A lot of anime is much better at having women who are strong and butt-kickers yet have heart as well. Some of the Bubble Gum Crisis or even old Dirty Pair had that (though the latter is a comedy, they still did a good job with the characters) and there are more I can't name without looking at my tapes.

I think you just need to show that the characters have a moral base, a code of sorts that drives and governs their actions. That code needs to be tested, their faith as it were questioned, their actions and butt kicking in sync with what they believe. And they can't be god like. Xena devolved into that and she lacked true heart, while Gabrielle had heart and ended up kicking butt. Gabrielle had flaws, had to work for what she acheived. Xena just did whatever was needed for the story and frankly had way too many things she was awesome at. Hercules was much more flawed and limited and seemed to have more heart, to me at least.

Those are my suggestions, I am sure you can find a lot of other examples if you look hard. Hell, compare the Star Trek women, who are all more cliched and lack really depth, to those in Babylon 5. Those in the latter are more three dimensional and well realized and have both of what you are looking for.

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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Wright » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:55 pm

Thank you for the advice. I really appreciate it.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Garner » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:39 pm

Wright, no problem. If you have further questions or whatnot email me, I usually reply pretty quickly. That is usually. :) Hope it all helped.

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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby Wright » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:19 pm

Garner wrote:Wright, no problem. If you have further questions or whatnot email me, I usually reply pretty quickly. That is usually. Hope it all helped.

Garner


I will and it did indeed help. Thanks again.

On-topic, I agree with The Rose24's statement. Tara may not have been a 'bigger' icon, but she was a better one.
Last edited by Wright on Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby amber addict » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:17 pm

Sorry but I've come into this topic late and just wanted to address some things that I've read

I also liked Riley in season 4, but felt he lacked direction or a storyline in season 5, and so it was not the end of the world to see him go


I have to disagree with this in my personal opinion Riley was an OK character until he started dating Buffy. As a new character I thought he had great potential I mean he started off with his own circle of friends which I thought was a nice touch to show that he wasnt dependent on Buffy and her friends but once he started dating Buffy he lost all his personality and became Buffy's Boyfriend who had nothing better to do than follow Buffy around with love-sick eyes.


Well, I guess I have to be the odd man (woman) out on this one because season 6 was my favorite season (with the exception of killing Tara


You don't have to be the odd one out because I too enjoyed season six. I personally liked how screwed up Buffy was getting I think it was a nice change from the unrealistic view that she would always make the right choice. Plus season six saw OMWF and Tara become a bigger character albeit not much but any Tara is good.
While it made Buffy's character more interesting I do have to agree that she wasn't a good icon in that season.
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Re: Tara - was she a bigger icon than Buffy?

Postby WebWarlock » Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:08 am

Bigger? No. More important to some? Absolutely.

Interestingly enough, here we are coming up on 5 years later, people are still talking about how stupid killing Taea was.

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