The Strange and Incredible Saga of Willow and Tara

[Dana5140]

This is a link to a very long article discussing the Willow and Tara controversy on Buffy- it is very well reasoned but nearly 80 pages long.

http://www.whedon.info/article.php3?id_article=17567

The link is to part 1 of 4 parts; the remaining parts can be linked at the bottom of part 1. Hope posting this is not a problem; I thought the writer really did a good job.

ETA: Interestingly, the link on whedonesque to this article disappeared overnight- I know I had posted a long message about why I felt some truly horrid decisions were made.

[WebWarlock]

Ok,

It rehashes some of the points we have made here before, but it is a very good article. (I hate reading on that site though, fonts are too damn small and I dislike giving them ad views).

What is MOST intresting is this. Here it is August of 2006, more than FOUR YEARS after this has happened, and yet people are still talking about it and showing time and time again what a stupid idea kill Tara was.

So read it, though it will be old information for anyone here.

Of course part of was also like "What the hell is he talking about?" In my ongoing WitchCraft RPG game, Willow and Tara have moved to Boston where Tara just took a teaching job.

Warlock

[billy]

That was good. Thanks, Dana.

Of course part of was also like "What the hell is he talking about?" In my ongoing WitchCraft RPG game, Willow and Tara have moved to Boston where Tara just took a teaching job.

I feel the same way. Willow and Tara are very much alive and happy and well away from Sunnydale.

[Dana5140]

WW- that's sort of why I posted it- because it is still such an issue 4 years later and because over time, as always happens over time, memories begin to fade and history is rewritten. It may not be the best written article, but it certainly is heartfelt.

And- couldn't you have them move happily to Davenport, IA? :-)

[WebWarlock]

And we thank you for posting it.

I don't bother with Buffy-fandom at all anymore. But I would love to know how the rest of them (whatever is left anyway-is there any Buffy fandom even left??) think of this.

Warlock

[Kendahl897]

Its still so clearly obvious of what a bad idea killing Tara off was even after all of these years. I mean take every argument we make of why away, and the bottom line is still this:. BUFFY SANK TO 2.3 IN THE RATINGS IN SEASON SEVEN.
Was it all b/c of Tara? Probably not. Bad writing, American Idol. But contrary to what the writers said, upset people do and did walk away and stop watching a favorite show. It was a ratings killer, and in Hollywood, that's what talks louder than almost anything.
As for any fans left in Buffydom, I'm sure there are some.I mean, even GWB can muster 36%. But low 2's. Kinda says it all for me.
And BTW, that was a great article.

I'll have to check out your game Tim. Will there perhaps be a wedding soon?

[CaptMurdock]

A very good article, at least what I read. I linked it on my LJ.

Maybe this just proves that true love, such as that shared by Willow and Tara, is truly eternal.

[BBOvenGuy]

The author is a regular email correspondent of mine. You may notice some of my influence in the piece. He'll be very glad to hear that you all noticed it. He was so happy when whedon.info picked it up.

Oh, and by the way, here's something else worth mentioning... Saturday afternoon at 1:00 PDT, Calamity Jane Espenson will be participating in a panel discussion on "TV and the Fan Community" at Worldcon in Anaheim. Here's the description:

Some showrunners are now reading fan boards & fanfic sites to gauge reaction to what they're doing on their shows. Others avoid sites in order to keep "untainted". Writers and producers talk about the effect the fan community has on how a show develops. Do they ever have to deal with actors and their responses to the fans? What happens when you're torn between two disparate but equally vocal groups of fans?

What's doubly interesting is that Doctor Who writer Paul Cornell will also be on the panel. At the end of the most recent season, when the Doctor's companion Rose Tyler was written out of the show, Paul's boss Russell T. Davies was very vocal about how he could have killed Rose off but didn't because, "that's not what we're about."

And guess who will be in the audience?

[taralicious]

What's doubly interesting is that Doctor Who writer Paul Cornell will also be on the panel - at the end of the most recent season, when the Doctor's companion Rose Tyler was written out of the show, Paul's boss Russell T. Davies was very vocal about how he could have killed Rose off but didn't because, "that's not what we're about."

Having seen "Army of Ghosts"/"Doomsday" , the two part Series Two finale of "Doctor Who", I breathed a sigh of relief and let out a breath I didn't even know I had been holding.
I was relieved that Russell T. Davies hadn't killed off Rose Tyler because I couldn't go through the loss of another beloved character like the gaping Tara Maclay shaped hole which will never heal.

[The Rose24]

Wow! This is amazing!

The author gives some really good ideas about how Joss could have kept Tara around, but to no avail.

I especially like how he suggests Tara could have helped Willow with her recovery in season seven.

I barely watched season seven, and what I saw was terrible. I never watched "The Killer in Me" or the ep where Willow and that girl have sex. They had ABSOLUTELY NO chemistry anyway.

[WebWarlock]

And guess who will be in the audience?

Bob, there is no one I would rather have there. A give old Calamity Jane a big wet sloppy kiss for me.

I was talking with one of my regular gamers and he was telling me the spoilers for "Doomsday" going on and on how "great" it was going to be and how they were going to "pull a Whedon" ie. kill off a character.
I was so pleased when the character in question not only didn't die, but it almost seem to mock the senseless killing of characters.
Plus I was also pleased that the name Whedon has been associated with killing off characters rather than say good story telling.

I can't wait to hear how it goes!

The nice thing about this article is not that it is going to change minds, that fight was lost a long time ago, or to prove yet again we were right, but rather that 4 years later it is still being written about and still being discussed. Now I am sure that in his twisted psyche Whedon would feel that is a victory for him, but people still talk about a lot of horrible things years later, that doesn't mean it was correct (the dream season of Dallas comes to mind).

Warlock

[Simon]

ETA: Interestingly, the link on whedonesque to this article disappeared overnight- I know I had posted a long message about why I felt some truly horrid decisions were made.

Whedon.info doesn't get linked to. That's why I deleted the link.

[WebWarlock]

ETA: Interestingly, the link on whedonesque to this article disappeared overnight- I know I had posted a long message about why I felt some truly horrid decisions were made.

Whedon.info doesn't get linked to. That's why I deleted the link.

So if it were on a different site you would link to it?

Warlock

[Simon]

ETA: Interestingly, the link on whedonesque to this article disappeared overnight- I know I had posted a long message about why I felt some truly horrid decisions were made.

Whedon.info doesn't get linked to. That's why I deleted the link.

So if it were on a different site you would link to it?

Warlock

If it was reposted on another site with the author's permission , I don't see why not.

[WebWarlock]

Bob.

Did you want to ask Eric about a repost?
Afterall, why not.

And once again, if webspace is needed I can find some I am sure. Plus it would be nice for no other reason than to get it on another site so it can be read with out that tiny font that can't be changed.
Crimony, I cut and pasted it to Word just so I could read it.

Warlock

[Dana5140]

Simon: I could not locate the original link to the article, but it seems to me that there are people here who can do just that. I was surprised that the link was dropped, not sure why you would not link to whedon.info, and thought it was odd if not weird to see it gone, given that it will engender a lot of discussion, which was my reason for posting in the first place. I have stated that I find too much defense of Joss on whedonesque, too much without apparent actual reading of articles- as was the case with the initial posts about this article, with one person disagreeing with it after stating they gave up after a page and a half (of an 80-page article), but there a number of issues related to this article: authorial intent, audience expectation, business decisions, screenwriting decisions, GLBT issues, homophobia, cultural change, representation, Otherness, etc. I enjoy the debates, but not the often knee-jerkiness of things. And this article was highly critical of whedonesque's raison d'etre. But thank you for the clarification. I still think you should find a way to link it back (though with my luck it will be sometime next week, when I leave for the wilderness for a week where I will have no computer access at all).

[Simon]

not sure why you would not link to whedon.info.

Ask any Buffyverse web master or web mistress about Whedon.info/buffy.nu. Most of them have long bitter memories about that site.

I find too much defense of Joss on whedonesque.

It's a pro-Joss site. That's what we are. We like him. I like him. I would be surprised if there wasn't too much defense of Joss. Much in the same way, I would be surprised it if there wasn't too much defense of Sarah at Smgfan or James at BAPs. But then that's the wackiness of fandom for you and I'm veering far too much away from the original intention of this thread (I read the article- don't agree with it but there you go).

[Dana5140]

I know. I am OT as well, and I well realize the reason for whedonesque; I guess I am just used to academic give and take, where we really do offer critical analysis of what we study. I'll "see" you over there.

As to the article, I think it summarizes what I feel about the entire issue. Robert Black gave voice to my feelings in his original articles, stating far better what I wanted to say, and noting the inconsistencies in the public pronouncements that came from ME. Me, my feeling is, if you don't want to accept the issues you raise by what you do, you don't accept awards for what you do, either. There is much more that can be said about this, but I will hold off on that.

But to put it baldly, after 4 years (4 years where the attention span of the averager person is about 20 minutes, where what happened last week is already ancient history) this issue still is with us, and I can think of nothing in all of television history like this. Bad is bad.

[billy]

But to put it baldly, after 4 years (4 years where the attention span of the averager person is about 20 minutes, where what happened last week is already ancient history) this issue still is with us, and I can think of nothing in all of television history like this. Bad is bad.

Y'know, 4 years later any anger I felt about what happened to Tara is gone, but I'm still just as baffled about the ability of some people to deny what went wrong with Buffy. There was a lot that was good about the show, and I still watch the first five seasons, but there was also so much that was bad about Seasons 6 and 7, not only what happened to Tara, and you only have to look at the link in the 'AB on Supernatural' thread to see that there are even some people who are still badmouthing Amber, which is a great pity. That's why I love the Kitten Board so much. We can enjoy what was good about Willow and Tara and ignore the crappiness, and (most of the time) ignore the people involved in making the bad decisions and their poor behaviour.

[BBOvenGuy]

Okay, I made it to the panel.

W/T didn't get discussed directly, but Calamity Jane had a couple of interesting things to say about -

(1) He kept most of the overall story decisions to himself, and didn't even really share what he was thinking with his staff on the overall stuff.

(2) He did read the fan boards, regularly, and most interestingly

(3) He made a regular practice of doing the opposite of what the fans were saying they wanted or that they were hoping for.

Which explains W/T perfectly, if you ask me. When people told him he couldn't do it, he did it. Once people decided they liked the couple, they weren't any fun to him any more.

There was also a lot of talk - in a rather resentful tone - about what they called "the fan sense of entitlement." That is to say, the perception in Hollywood that at some point the fans come to feel like they're the ones who "own" the show. However, the Hollywood types got a bit of balance from Paul Cornell, who pointed out that for 15 years, the fans of Doctor Who really did own the show (and he was a part of it).

EDITED TO ADD -

Upon further reflection, I think it's only fair to point out that Calamity Jane gave the impression of being a professional's professional screenwriter. That is to say, she doesn't appear to be as attached to the shows she writes for as a fan would be. She may have enjoyed working on Buffy, but she pretty clearly appears to have moved on from it now. She says she doesn't mind when people disagree with her or get angry about something she's written, because people are entitled to their own opinions. The only thing that upsets her is when people are confused by something she's written, because then she feels like she's failed as a writer.

I should also mention that she presented the Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form Award tonight at the Hugos, and didn't know how to pronounce the word "Dalek."

[Kendahl897]

Hence, you get the ratings slide of season 7. I'll say it again. He may have hurt us, but he screwed himself by assuring that even if SMG had chosen not to leave, there would most likely have NOT been a season 8. UPN was not a happy customer that last year.


You forgot #4) He seeks to deflect responsibility by trying to blame others for the results of his bad decisions.

[AmbersSecretAdmirer]

Ultimately, I think, how angry you are about the eath of Tara will depend on your answers to these questions:

1) Do you think the "Magic addiction" storyline was a strong, well written piece that made a serious and responsible attempt to look at the horrors of addiction?

2) Do you believe that a writer with as much pop culture knowlede as Joss was unaware of the Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliche, or how it might apply to the death of Tara?

3) Do you believe that answers given by Joss and other writers in web chats and posting boards prior to Tara's death, were deliberate lies or merely misdirection?

4) Was Tara's death the only way to bring about Dark Magic Willow?

5) Does Tara's death qualify under the "Dead/Evil Lesbian" cliche and the rules that determine that cliche or was it merely and unfortunate set of coincidences that made it lok that way?

6) Do you think that comments made by Joss and the other writers after it happened were insensitive or merely an attempt at brevity?

7) In your view, was the proposed appearance of Amber as the Frst disguised as Tara good drama or an attempt to stick the knife in to the fans who had criticised the murder?

Was JFK, stated by Joss as the Anti-Tara, an attempt to appease the fans or to enflame them more?

9) How do you view the fact that Willow got a love scene with JFK but not with Tara?

10) Do you think that Joss' comments about the plans to bring Tara back by way of a wish, and that it didn't happen because Amber turned it down, was a sign of desperation on his part to deflect blame from himself or was he being truthful and apportioning blame where it lay?

11) related to 10, f the storyline was true, do you find it suspicious that Joss did not sign Amber for appearances in both seasons, as the story requires, long before the controversy struck (such as during contract negotiations for season 6)?

12) Dd the character of Tara impact your life personally or was she merely a character you liked on the show?


These 12 questions I ask to no one in particular, so you may all answer them if you wish. There are no right or wrong answers, only the truthful answers of how you feel. For my part my answers are these:

1) No, it was not strong enough nor a responsible look at addiction.

2) I believe he knew.

3) IMO, they were deliberate lies designed to maximise the devastaton when the death occurred.

4) Clearly, it was not.

5) Sadly, it follows the Cliche to the letter, including the Freudian cliche of the lesbian being brought back to normal by the love of a good man.

6) They were massively insensitive and showed either callousness or ignorance on the part of the writers.

7) IMO, it was sticking it to the fans.

To enflame them, IMO.

9) I view it as another sign that ME wanted to erae Tara from their conscience.

10) It was desperate deflection IMO.

11) I find it highly suspicious.

12) Tara not only spoke to those in the LGBT community, but to people like me from abusive homes who saw in Tara hope that the horrors might end and I too might find love.


Well, those are my views, which is why I hold Joss in contempt.

[Kendahl897]

I agree with 99% of what you just wrote.
I differ on one point though.. I actually think JFK was an attempt to deflect criticism and appease 'lesbian' fans. I think however, it had the opposite effect and completely blew up in their faces (this is when the ratings really started to nosedive). I think the character was so unpopular, the chemistry so lacking, that not only was she largely unliked by lesbian fans but Buffy fans in general. I think they went with someone so unlike Tara b/c they were afraid they would get more criticism if they tried to replace her with a character just like her.
What they didn't get, until it was too late, was that what the fans wanted wasn't someone like Tara or the opposite of her, what they wanted was TARA herself, as played by Amber.... And alot of fans were not gonna back for anything else. They learned that sometimes when people say they are going to stop watching, they actually do it.
I think Joss realized at some point he had screwed up. And that's why I think he made up that stupid 'wish' BS to try and cover his butt and deflect blame. JMHO

[WebWarlock]

And lets look at the facts.

This wish story about bringing Tara back was never even heard by anyone until that day.

A day at a con where Amber Benson was with tons of her fans.

That story is pure 100% Bullshit.

Warlock

[DaddyCatALSO]

I have to say I still have a feeling that when Joss said he was "thinking about it" or even says he "wanted to do it" it's probably tehcnically true because I think anything can go thru that man's mind almost anytime and he can usually make himself believe it.

[Dana5140]

As for JFK/Willow sex, I have a very different take- that at that point they knew the program was ending so there was nothing to "lose" by having a sex scene between two women. Sort of a cowardice kind of thing because they should have done this back in S4, you know?

[Kendahl897]

I agree. If there had been more, season 7 would have ended differently on several levels, including Anya. And there would not have been a JFK in season 8. I also think, and this is only my opinion, that had there been a season 8, ME would have been under a lot of pressure from UPN to stop the ratings hemorraging and bring fans back. And who were the most organized, vocal, and angriest fans? The ones writing in saying they were no longer watching the show?
No network is going to pay that kind of money for a show doing that badly.

[WebWarlock]

Hell.

I talked to UPN's program director in charge of Buffy then. He KNEW exactly who we were and what we were doing to the show.

The show was doomed the second Seeing Red was over.

Warlock

[Kendahl897]

Yes.

Tim---What was the ratings drop? About 25% wasn't it?

That was the most well put together, organized and loudest backlash I have ever witnessed. By the time it was over, there wasn't a UPN affiliate in the country who didn't know who the Kittens were.

[WebWarlock]

The ratings fell 15% on the very begining of S7. So one out six people that used to watch the show said at the end of S6, "nope. no more me thanks".

Then ratings continued to fall throughout the season.

Can that be attibuted to Tara's death? Well certainly a large portion could be, after all, why watch when half or your favorite couple is dead and the other a mockery of her former self? But one thing is for certain. The ratings fell, people stopped watching and ME only has themselves to blame.

Warlock