Willow and Tara's Magic

[darkmagicwillow]

I've been thinking about Willow and Tara's magic use recently and thought that people might be interested in reading my thoughts, which I've divided into three areas, each an answer to a different question.





Is Willow more powerful than Tara?



Canon suggests this view strongly, but it doesn't prove that this is the case. While it's true that Willow casts more spells than Tara, there are a number of reasons for that ranging from Willow being more involved with the slaying to their different views on when to use magic with Tara being more reluctant to use her magical abilities. There's also the simple fact that Willow has more screen time.



When Tara expresses her fear of Willow's growing power during their argument in Tough Love, it seems clear that Tara thinks that Willow is the more powerful witch, though with Tara's lack of confidence in herself until season 6, I don't think that we can accept her self-evaluation here as an objective truth. We've also seen Willow need Tara's help in casting her most powerful spell up this point--the teleportation of Glory.



Willow does become more powerful than we have ever seen her before at the end of this episode after she reads the Darkest Magicks book, casting more spells in general as well as using spells that are more powerful than most that we have seen in earlier episodes. But does this mean that Willow is more powerful than Tara? This leads me to my next question.





What does more powerful mean?



Willow's reading Darkest Magicks increases her knowledge of spells useful for the Scoobies dramatically, allowing her to use her potential in ways essential to saving the Scoobies from Glory and the Knights of Byzantium. However, this is an increase in her ability to access her potential, not an increase in her potential itself. Tara doesn't gain this knowledge, both because of a lack of opportunity when this happens and because she has a different philosophy about using magic, so we don't know whether there's any difference between Willow's potential or Tara's.



Is magical power strength, the potential to cast particularly powerful spells or simply more spells, or knowledge? While knowledge can obviously change, it's not so obvious that strength can change, though magical strength can be borrowed from another person (Tara and Willow's shared spells) or an artifact (Jonathan's magic bone.) Is strength something you develop or something innate? If it's innate, it seems that everyone has it since even Xander can cast a spell by speaking Latin in front of the books. Perhaps power is a combination of strength and knowledge, innate and learned abilities, making it almost impossible to simply declare who is the more powerful caster.



Since I've illustrated the problems with determining who has the greater magical strength or potential to cast spells above, what about the question of who has more knowledge? Again, the answer isn't clear. Tara has a narrow but deep focus in a single tradition learned from her mother, while Willow has a shallow but wide knowledge of various spells that have come in useful to the Scoobies with her cookbook approach.



Willow clearly knows more spells that are useful in a fight by the end of season 5, but she still has the problem with her spells going awry at times. On the other hand, Tara doesn't seem to know as many spells, but her spells reliably work and she has the ability to see auras. What does Tara's reliability mean compared to Willow's unreliability in terms of power, and how does flashy combat magic compare in terms of power to quiet informative magic like Tara's ability to see auras?





Should Willow be more powerful than Tara?



This is a more subjective question than my previous two, but I think it's worth considering. My answer is no, because making Willow more powerful in terms of the story means focusing more strongly on Willow as a witch, which is a mistake for several reasons.



First, it harms the character of Tara by making her redundant to the Scoobies, all the more so if she isn't as useful in terms of slaying as Willow. There are fewer reasons to show Tara onscreen and even fewer reasons to keep her as part of the cast at all if the only thing that makes her special is that she's Willow's girlfriend. They didn't keep Kendra, a weaker Slayer, around as a regular, though they did keep Faith because her attitude towards Slaying made her an important and interesting contrast to Buffy. The idea of a contrast between Willow and Tara played up to the level of the Buffy/Faith dichotomy could have been used in season 6 and indeed, we do see hints of this idea, but it's never fully developed.



Second, it's harmful to the character of Willow because the more Willow focuses on her magic, the less focus we see on her intelligence and academic abilities, to the point where viewers forget that Willow's smart. I can understand that a new ability like magic could make Willow act less mature, but it shouldn't make her stupid and that's the really frustrating change in Willow after high school. We're still told that Willow's smart, but we're no longer shown that this is the case as we used to see in episodes like The Dark Age with her plan to deal with Eyghon. Dealing with the Initiative and Adam would've been a great opportunity to show Willow being smart and scientific, with Tara as magic or research support, instead of defeating Adam with a big spell that came out of nowhere at the end of the season.



Finally, the focus of the show is on the Slayer, as the title clearly indicates, which doesn't leave room for a regular focus on witches, particularly when one of them is more powerful than the Slayer. Having two characters whose focus is on casting spells with only one Slayer means that at least one of the witches is going to get shortchanged in terms of screen time because the show has to focus on Slaying. If Willow has a different role in terms of the Scoobies than Tara, then there's more room to show Tara. Tara could be the one that Willow goes to when the Scoobies need a spell like she did in season 4. It's also worth pointing out that the spells in season 4 focused on information, defense, and transformation, all areas which don't detract from the focus on the Slayer's combat prowess.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/17/03 8:17 am

[WebWarlock]

I was just ranting on a similar topic.



I think there is ample evidence to support Willow is a more active spell caster, but Tara has the deeper understanding of magic.



For my purposes I have always felt that Tara had more raw power than Willow, just less skill or desire to bring it to the forefront like Willow would. Willow had more ability to use the power she had.



For example, you would never see Tara tapped out of magical power.



I think if the girls had been given a show of their own (an run by someone that actually knew something) the development of Tara's power over Willow's would have been a strong and compelling story arc. Especially since you have Willow, who has been insecure and used magic as a means to help her, suddenly being overshadowed by her "less powerful" girlfriend. It would have been agnsty and full of tension, but it could have worked. Especially if the season finale wasn't about the two main characters, Willow and Tara, having a smack down witches battle, but instead both understanding that their powers, regardless of personal strength, are greatest together.



There have been some good fan fics on Pens that even address this.

But then again those stories work because they were written by people that actually care for the characters and want to see them.



Warlock



ETA: Sher, EXACTLY my point. And the apt example as well. I'll stop here or I'll get all ranty and a mod will have to hose me down.

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side,
home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

"There has to be an invisible sun. It gives its heat to everyone.

There has to be an invisible sun. That gives us hope when the whole day's done." - The Police Invisible Sun

Edited by: WebWarlock at: 6/17/03 11:00 am

[Sheridan]

I suspect that magical strength may be like physical strength in that the more you workout the stronger your muscles become. I suspect the more aggressive a magic user you are the easier it becomes to channel the power and the stronger your powers. I think Tara's (rightly) more cautious approach limited her practical strength. Though things might have been different if the pair had been given more of a central role, Tara may have indeed had more inate strength than Willow.

Oh and Web Warlock with regard to what you were ranting about it certainly didn't help to clarify matters, it would have been nice if the enjoining spell had at least been mentioned in the Gift but apparently a spell that could give Buffy god like powers wasn't worth discussing.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

Edited by: Sheridan at: 6/17/03 10:50 am

[maudmac]

I'm not certain I could put my finger on exactly why, but my gut belief was always that Tara was the more powerful of the two. It seemed to me that Tara had both an innate ability and a long history of instruction and practice that Willow lacked, but could somewhat make up for by being well-read.



I was frustrated by the show's mythology regarding magic. The idea that absolutely anyone at all could do a spell and it was as easy as, as you say, "speaking Latin in front of the books." That actually reinforces the idea that Willow might have had little or no innate aptitude for magic, only an excellent memory. Also, speaking of the show's mythology about magic, it also seemed to me that a good bit of what passed for "magic" was actually telekinesis, which may or may not have been a component of magic. I would really have enjoyed them delving more into the nature of magic, how it works, why it works, what's magic and what isn't, etc. Then again, it's fun to watch fic writers sorting it all out.



I would compare Tara to Willow this way:



It's like artists. A good artist might be so because she has an natural aptitude and was just born with an artistic bent, and an eye for what "works" artistically. She would probably describe constructing art as expressing her soul on a canvas (or in words, photographs, dance, etc.) or possibly as "chanelling her muse." This artist may or may not be able to write you an essay explaining exactly why, in technical terms, a particular work is good art, she just feels it.



A good artist might, however, be so mostly because she has studied widely. She might know good art, without exactly feeling it. She constructs art according to a learned set of rules and guidelines. And she would definitely be able to write that essay.



As to who is stronger, or what that even means, I don't think there's a definitive answer. It's all very subjective, but it's a fascinating discussion to be having.

---

Pussy crack corn...and I don't care! -- Margaret Cho

[VicariousSmoochies]

I also feel that Tara possesses (I'm speaking in present tense because I refuse to believe she is no longer with us...) more of the innate magical components which makes her 'stronger', especially emotionally, and if she sought the same source of her power like Willow does, through books, texts, and whatever else she can get her hands on, there's no telling how powerful she might have become. Tara seems to be rooted much more naturally, while Willow is Wiccan 101 and moved on quickly through the use of those tremendous brains. Tara is empathetic and sees auras. This has given the Scoobies an upper advantage on several occassions. Tara is the one who sensed Buffy and Faith switched bodies. What would have happened if Tara lacked that kind of knowing? How about April the Sexbot? Tara knew right away. Although...how does one sense an aura of a robot? Or maybe that's it. There was no aura and she figured it to be just that. What about WTWTA during the earthquake scene in the Frat house? She sensed something happening much like an animal senses geological changes of that magnitude. To say who would be stronger would be a matter of opinion, but I would prefer to say that Tara is much more grounded in her magical abilities. She respects it and does not abuse it's source. Willow has a broader spectrum of spells and can be called quickly upon in times of emergency. Being the proverbial child in the candy shop, Willow abused it greatly...but hey, I wonder if the same wouldn't happen to me if I had the chance to be something more than what I am. I guess I'm saying Tara seemed the wiser of the two. Willow had practical knowledge of the magicks, while Tara was more responsible with it, thus appearing that Willow had more power.

[Garner]

Damn, this is a good topic and another thread I'll have to make sure and check out.



OK, Willow is obviously the more powerful as shown on the show. Anything else is speculation. If we look at what Willow was capable of as DMW at the end of season 6 then I think there is no question of who they intended to be more powerful.



However, I have always thought that Tara could have been more powerful, and that she SHOULD have been more powerful since she came from a long line of witches and had been practicing since she was young. If we go with Sheridan's exercise idea, than Tara has been exercising all her life! If you look at the great martial artists, they are the ones who started at age 4-6, not the ones who come later. The breadth of experience should make a huge difference. Willow is more like someone who is a natural or has a great talent for it, but should still lack the depth of understanding and training that would really allow for great power. If one looks at real occult traditions one notices that the most important things are Willpower and study. One has to exert their will to create an effect in the real world. Tara is hampered in this since she obviously lacks self assurance. Her esteem is low and she is not ready or able to fully use her full willpower. Willow on the other hand has at least been fighting evil for several years and may be insecure to an extent, but has still survived in combat situations and that is mentally toughening, let me assure you.



Now as for the other point, study is a huge deal in magic. It is not all nose twinkles and affects occur. You have to be smart, dedicated and know how to study and master a lot of skills for magic. We should have seen Willow applying her amazing brain power to the task of categorizing spells, learning languages, learning new spells, techniques, meditation, trances all sorts of skills to make the material components for ritual magic. Learning magic is often a lifetime process that involves knowing the uses and natures and often names of many different things and how they relate. We COULD have seen Willow doing this with Tara's aid. They would have made a formidable team with Willow's drive and combat experience, her sheer intellectual ability, tempered by Tara's wisdom, depth of direct magical experience, and a more wholistic understanding.



We are also ignoring that whichever is more powerful, it is irrelevent. They are more powerful together than apart. The sum of the parts in less than the sum of the whole! When they act together, in concert, they blow away anything either of them could do seperately. And that should have been emphasized more too. Again as a team both partners are necessary and bring something important to the mix.



Finally, there are different styles of magic. Natural Wiccan, more traditional witchcraft, solomic, cabala, oriental mysticism, numerology, enochian, shamanism. The list is almost as diverse as the number of cultures we have here on earth. So maybe Tara is more skilled at a certain type of magic, say defensive, traditional white magic, maybe even more herbology, candle magic, healing, that sort of thing. Maybe Willow is better at potions, ritual magic, or directly expressing her will through names (her jewish heritage there) or maybe a bit more directly combative. There are ways the two could have been distinguished.



All this would have required that the writers know something, almost anything, about magic or at least took the time to invent something coherent and logical with its own rules and limitations. They obviously did not do this and both Willow and Tara suffered for it. It's what makes the stupid, idiotic addiction crap so terrible, at least for me, because it undercuts the whole of magic that went before. If they would have known about this idea in season 2 they might have been able to have Giles mention it, maybe even have Willow worry about it. Unfortunately magic was simply something to get the plot proceeding, be it as a resolution device or to get the story going, or as a complication. Too bad. Any fantasy writer could have told them that this would end with inconsistencies and unsastisfied fans. Not that they would have cared.



Garner

[darkmagicwillow]

The show's lack of a consistent mythology for its magic is my worst problem with how it deals with the issue and I do think Willow and Tara following different magical paths would have been a good idea, but I'll save my longer reply on that topic for a later date and address some of people's specific ideas now. As an aside, the whole Latin thing gives me some odd visions of what life was like in Roman times with spells flying around every time people spoke. (-;



I like the exercise idea, which has some precedents in fantasy literature; however, it doesn't necessarily indicate that Tara is stronger, though she is likely more skillful and smooth in her practice: Tara has engaged in regular but light magical exercise through her whole life, but Willow has engaged in heavy magical exercise fighting monsters for the last few years.



I don't think that Willow's borrowed power at the end of season 6 indicates that she's stronger any more than Giles' power then means that he's a powerful spellcaster, as it is just that--borrowed. I can't make much sense of the rest of season 6 magic, as the Sabrinaesque hijinks in Smashed and the addictive nature of magic in Wrecked are both nonsensical and inconsistent with prior seasons, so I've avoided discussing it.



I agree that if Willow is skilled in magic, it should be as a result of intelligence and diligent studies. If she's to become suddenly powerful, it should have been because she's figured out something new in the world of magic, perhaps by applying her knowledge of modern science and techology to make her spells better (by finding new ways to apply magic, eliminating redundant words, or simply finding new sources of magickal power), which could be used to make a strong contrast with Tara's artistic approach.



Oh, and as for magic as a plot device, good point on forgetting the joining spell in s5 being as much of a problem as them suddenly discovering it in s4. While I do like the spell as a metaphor for the rejoining of the core Scooby group, there should have been reasons both for discovering it then and ignoring it later (which the First Slayer doesn't work for since Buffy actually seeks her out in s5.)

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/17/03 7:56 pm

[The Rose24]

I think Tara's power is different from Willow's. I have never seen Willow read anyone's aura.



I also agree they are stronger together. For example, in The Gift, Willow needs Tara's power to separate the minions. Willow doesn 't even have to look back. They join hands instinctively and simultaneously just like the turn their heads simultaneously in "Hush."

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

[famer]

If weren't for her lack of confidence, I think Tara definitely could've eventually been the "go to" magic girl for the scoobies.



And, I agree with WW, that that would've created great drama/conflict btwn her and Will e.g. would Tara's passive & peacemaker streak make her hide or deliberately not develop her magic skills? Deep down, Willow links Tara loving her with Will's practice of magic. What kind of implications would that have if Tara became more powerful, rendering Willow's magic irrelevant, in comparison?



In any event, my position is likely solely emotional/ subjective. I want Tara to be more powerful b/c I'd want her to be my go to girl. You gotta trust your magic wielder. And I'd trust Tara absolutely. She'd be honest about everything, including potential side effects. Willow? Not so sure.



Also, you gotta know that, if magic is inherent/potentially in everyone, then Tara would be the girl to tap the collective good. Willow would go it alone to spare us, even if we didn't want her to.



Comparing Willow vs. Tara's magic is like comparing oranges and star fruit. Willow is obviously is the more creative of the two (adapting the tinkerbell light) and more ambitious. But, she doesn't have the foundation, the overarching theory that Tara has. Their magic, like their personalities, complement each other.



For Willow, magic is a science experiment. For Tara, it's a way of life, a religion. Seperate, they're kinda tangy but together, they're a kick ass synergistic fruit salad.



Use the FORCE young Willow. Tara's my Yoda.

Edited by: famer at: 6/17/03 10:49 pm

[darkmagicwillow]

Actually, I don't find Willow's approach to magic to be scientific at all. Science isn't simply tinkering with stuff or trying new things. Willow doesn't have any hypotheses about how magic works and so of course never makes any predictions based on said hypotheses or methodical observations on what actually happens.



Her approach instead is to be presented with a crisis, look up a recipe in a book, and try to perform the recipe. I'd call it a cookbook approach. She's hampered by her recipes being written in dead languages in ancient texts, so she often has difficulties with the recipes working out, likely because of mistakes in her translation or the original by-hand transcription of the book. We hear her suggest such a misreading when she tries to get Tara to do the demon-locator spell again in Family.



There's only one instance of her experimenting with a spell in a way that seems scientific, where she goes beyond those interpreting those ancient texts and achieves a change in the effects of a spell--the big tinkerbell light in Doomed. I would've liked to have seen more of that, especially the actual experimenting so we could have seen that her approach was indeed scientific in nature which we don't know for certain in this case, and I think her magic would have been much more reliable if she had followed that path.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[famer]

Good points DMW. My answer was perhaps skewed by my approach to science -- which is not a strictly textbook approach.



I saw Willow as doing the equivalent of a high school science experiments. Maybe not exactly understanding what's going on, kinda following the book, getting screwy results that you then fudge to fit in with what you were supposed to get. I know none of my chem lab experiments turned out the way they were supposed to, although I sometimes got similar results.



I don't think Willow was necessarily a good science student. But she always showed an enthusiasm for and sometimes creative way of trying to get at her result. That, to me, is behaviour like experimental or exploratory science -- trying to get a certain goal and changing things until you get there and perhaps making the causal link after.



As for creativity with spells, there's the doomed spell but also the sunlight spell they were working on. I know W&T were working on it together but I always got the sense Willow was the one who was pushing the exploring end, finding their limits (if any) e.g. rose spell etc. To me, testing limits often shows a curiosity to see how to get beyond current limits. With the exception of staying up and reading spells and doing research with the rest of the gang, I never really saw Tara testing the limits of her magic or playing with it (in jest or in pursuance of more useful spells). She had a different approach.



As for the cookbook approach -- isn't that really true for all the scoobies, including Giles? Crisis = research = spell. And sometimes they made a mistake. The fact Willow makes mistakes in translation has nothing to do with her approach to magic itself.



Lastly, I don't know if I agree that if Willow were more scientific, perhaps her spells would be more accurate. I don't know anything about magic, but I like to think it's more an art than a science. That it's creation is less dependent on 6 grams of powder and more dependent on less concrete or tangible values. Less like poundcake, more like music.



Really lastly, I know that we're supposed to believe the ancient spell books are accurate and when spells go awry, it's the spellcaster's fault. But I dunno about that. I see Willow's spells as the equivalent of doing a controlled experiment to replicate a published work. Sometimes it doesn't work b/c Will screwed it up and sometimes it doesn't work b/c the source work was screwy. Even a monk can have a typo.

Edited by: famer at: 6/18/03 7:27 am

[darkmagicwillow]

My perspective as a scientist strongly informs and influences my opinions on this issue. For example, I can agree with the comparison Willow's actions to high school science experiments, but to me, that shows that what she's doing is not scientific because of their focus on a predetermined procedure and correct answer. They follow the cookbook approach I found so unscientific. I agree that Willow is creative and exploratory in nature, but I need more to call her scientific.



I'm not sure that the cookbook approach holds for the other Scoobies as strongly. Giles attained a high degree of learning before coming to Sunnydale and Buffy trains with him before and after the inevitable crisis occurs. Willow was actively learning magic in late high school and early university, but the only time it seemed to lead to anything was when she used her pencil to stake the vampire in Choices. The only later evidence of that is her talking about the sunlight spell which you brought up.



I don't think the ancient books are complete and accurate, and I'm unsure about whether we're supposed to believe that they are, given how research is portrayed sometimes. I'm influenced by my own enthusiasm about classical history and literature and the resulting frustration because there's so much that wasn't written down or was written down and subsequently lost.



I'm also influenced by Glen Cook's portrayal in books like The Swordbearer or particularly The Silver Spike, where the spells of modern magicians are weak compared to the magic of the Limper, a sorceror from centuries ago who had been recently freed, whose spells are described as being without "the waste words" that had accreted over time.



I dislike Tara's tradition-bound approach because of this--irrelevancies accrete to traditions over time, some of them added by people with their own unrevealed agendas, others simply misunderstandings--and would've like to have seen more of Willow's analytical approach to the tinkerbell light, finding out how magic actually works in the Buffyverse (which is something I suspect we'd all like to know too!)



However, I think you're right that I'd trust Tara more, and for me, that's because she takes magic and its potential consequences more seriously than Willow, even before events became unbelievable in s6.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/18/03 8:14 am

[Sheridan]

I figure there has to be a sound reason why everyone in the Buffyverse doesn't use magic. To me it suggests it has to be an inate ability that not everyone possesses, perhaps some rare 'flaw' in the genes, or a piece of DNA inherited from a distant ancestor who was other than human. For the sake of my fanfic I assumed there was a rare gene only carried on the X chromosome, which would explain why most magic users in the Buffyverse are women; they have twice the chance of inheriting the gene.

Without some limiting factor the Buffyverse would soon be swamped with magic, good and bad.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

[sam7777]

Quote:

---

I figure there has to be a sound reason why everyone in the Buffyverse doesn't use magic.

---

Sheridan: Too true. Too bad ME never established any rules. It seems like everyone down to Xander can do major magic. I think they missed the boat in not doing magic as a metaphor for adult responsibility and contrasting Tara and Willow in this regard. ME used magic as an increasingily clumsy plot device painting themselves into plot corners. They should have established some limits to magic like the requirement for a ritual to tap power for certain spells. This would have prevented them from making Willow more powerful than Buffy. Magic could have been a metaphor for how many young adults try to take a shortcut to success rather than trying to work their way to it. "Charmed" is a much better example of a show with a more consistent use of magic.



There could also have been a contrast between Tara's "light magic" and Willow's "dark magic" to tell us about the danger of power for powers sake. On the show, I felt that Willow was the more powerful magic user. Tara's extensive knowledge from "always" practicing was never followed up on. Tara could have been a good magic resource for the scoobies with this knowledge while Willow could have been the battery for the spells. I've see stories like that in fanfic. Overall, magic was increasingly used as a crutch by the writers to solve storylines without much effort IMHO. The treatment of magic is one of the ways fanfic has done much better than the show.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 6/18/03 12:34 pm

[daddykat]

famer; I like the dichotomy you described of Willow being more creative vice Tara being more theoretically savvy.



I eprsoanlly draw the difference (and not just in their magic, but to an extent in their emotional life as well) of Willow having more raw power (literally, in the sense that a waterfall has power) and Tara having more fine control. And I don't ascribe this to Tara's ahving studied it longer, being more disciplined, or having a different attitude. I see it as innate in their soemwhat different magical giftings. But the show never showed them taking consistent advantage of this potential synergy.



As to not having a consistent theory of magic, I'm no McLuhanist but I see it as largely the nature of the medium. Thngs like this simply *aren't* planned out carefully in episodic TV. That's just not how shows are written.

[WebWarlock]

I cant speak for the show, because I aptly refuse to. But I can talk about analyzing the "Buffy" magic universe to death.



Ok, so the "Magic Box" book is out now I worked on every single spell in that book. We took a very simple approach. Magic that anyone can do is a function of your Willpower. But not every spell can be cast that way and the rest take a very long time. "Witches" on the other hand can cast all spells with less effort, but it is physically and mentally draining.



Now the fact is I am just some RPG hack. I am not a writer, I am not getting paid the big bucks to figure this stuff out.

But the so called professionals could even do that.

I have seen even better rationales in Pens. Look at Lisa’s “Unexpected Consequences/Milestones” or Sass’ “Answering Darkness”, just to name two. There are far better explanations in those two stories than in all of Buffy’s canon. It should be no surprise then to see Lisa’s and Sass’ names in the Magic Box book as contributors. I took their ideas to heart and went with them.



Now to some points:

Sher, we have talked about this elsewhere, but yes “Charmed” is largely superior to “Buffy” in terms of consistent magic use. I used to get excited when I saw a book on “Buffy” that I have in my library, then I realized they were making it up as they went along. On Charmed I recognize the books they use all the time, and it shows. They do their research better.



Whether or not the magic is “scientific” or even what Willow’s methods were, it would have been nice to compare and contrast the two styles of Willow and Tara. And like Garner said together they are more powerful than the sum of them separate. Hard to do in game stats by the way.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side,
home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

"There has to be an invisible sun. It gives its heat to everyone.

There has to be an invisible sun. That gives us hope when the whole day's done." - The Police Invisible Sun

[daddykat]

Oh, as to not using the joining spell against Glory

ideas



1- Adam had a sepcific weak spot which the Ueber-Slayer could target more successfully than any of them alone. Glory didn't have a sepcific Achilles Heel, so they couldn't be as sure of it working.



2- Not enough time and no safe place to cast it after restoring Tara's mind.



3- Bad writing style to use soemthing twice (hey it IS a commercial medium).

[darkmagicwillow]

What does a portrayal of the supernatural have to show to make you interested in it enough to suspend your disbelief? I've gathered ideas from people's posts along with thoughts of my own here.

1. Uniqueness: There should be one instance, or one recurring instance, of such an element. The Vampire Slayer fits this, as does the Imbolc Mage of UC, and even the Charmed Ones do, but Willow and Tara do not, though something could have been made of the two of them together. Demons on BtVS used to be unique, like Moloch, but no longer are and that's hurt the series.
   
   
2. Systematization: An alternative to uniqueness is a system by which the supernatural works. Vampires have this as a group on BtVS with their well-known rules, but witches on Buffy have neither uniqueness nor a system to work from. Charmed has both a system and a uniqueness of its main characters.
   
   
3. Consistency: We've discussed this and it's an obvious aid to suspension of disbelief if you don't have to have something new to accept with every episode.
   
   
4. Myth: The supernatural should draw from sources with which the reader is familiar to give the story a deeper resonance, or should create their own myths. The Gentlemen whose appearance brought Willow and Tara together in Hush are a good example of this as were the tests of the Imbolc Mage in UC or the three sisters of Charmed, but Willow and Tara's actual spellcasting lacks this, having only rare, shallow, and inconsistent ties into myth.
   
   

Are these concepts what make magic work for you, and if they're not what does? What broke your suspension of disbelief in magic in Buffy if anything did? For me, it was Willow's Sabrinaesque magic of Smashed, cemented by the addiction of Wrecked.





p.s.: Sheridan, I always liked the idea of magic being a function of non-human heritage, either from faerie or an alien race like in MZB's Darkover books, and that would've been an excellent way to make Tara different. Perhaps Tara could have been half-faerie instead of being their original wood sprite idea and that would've explained her closeness to her mother and why her father accused her of being a demon, while still allowing her to be good.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/18/03 12:57 pm

[WebWarlock]

DMW,



Very good points.



I should ad that "makeumups" are not that bad of a thing.

For example, the Gentlemen are whole cloth (from what I can tell) made up by Joss. But they still work on a lot of levels.

The Imbolc Mage is made up by Lisa, but I stripped out the fiction parts and gave it to my editors of my d20 witch book and they loved it. They said it thoughtfully extends the mythology of the witch.



So you can be original and it can work.



The trouble is Buffy's myths more times than not just cobble together myths from other sources like a big salad bar. They take the story, but not the cultural relevance that makes the story or myth important.



Charmed also does this, but they seem to be much better at it.



Joss want's all the power, but none of the rules.



I think Bob actually had a lot to say about this in his unpublished essay. I will leave that to him to discuss.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side,
home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

"There has to be an invisible sun. It gives its heat to everyone.

There has to be an invisible sun. That gives us hope when the whole day's done." - The Police Invisible Sun

[Garner]

One of the problems with magical theory in the real world is that it tends to get tied into religious systems. Cabala, Solomonic, witchcraft to a lesser extent, though it is more so with Wicca, shamanism, even Egyptian magic is tied to their gods and being able to manipulate them. Having a religious element to magic on a TV show is probably too questionable for most shows, and so drawing from more real world mythology is less likely.



There is also the question of how magic works. If it is too easy to reproduce the effects, if anyone can do it, is it really magic or just another type of "science" with its own laws that anyone can figure out? Just like quantam physics say. If magic is indeed supernatural, cause and effect will not always follow, that seems to me to be some of the point. In the show this should have translated into W/T doing a particular spell, getting a result and then doing it again, and getting a slightly different result. Even with the same steps, a different result might occur. Not always, but some degree of randomness in magic since it is bigger than mortals should keep some of the mystery alive in it. That is also a way to keep W/T less powerful than Buffy. She can always hit someone really hard as she is really strong. But if W/T do their sunshine spell (assuming the get it to work) they might creat sunshine once, a ball of fire another, a little flashlight the next or nothing the last time. That makes it hard to rely on the magic for a quick fix.



Speaking of which, I also think one of the problems was magic was seen as a metaphor for whatever, instead of something in and of its own right. Magic is a process of explaining and understanding the world, of controlling and shaping it to one's will. Magic can be seen as an attempt of the individual to become godlike, or transcend the limits of humanity and become more than they are. If you start with something like that, or some other justification for what role it plays in the world, you can start to develop rules and quantifications for it. If you just use it as a metaphor for power corrupting, drugs, lesbian sex, fitting into a group or whatever, you have nothing but a constantly changing definition that will make no sense in the long run. Maybe that was the problem.



Trying to run the Buffy magic system in a game setting is very frustrating as the person who can do magic, can do anything and nothing. As the GM you get to decide at your whim for the current storyline whether something works or not. For the player, that must seem like they are being jerked around to achieve a specific and directed end.



For me, magic on Buffy fell apart with Smashed and Wrecked. Oh, one last point. I don't like the idea of magic being tied to some non-human race, sorry DMW, I am too grounded in RW magical theory. However, one overlooked way to gain magical power suddenly, is to make a deal with something inherently magical, a demon, spirit or god. I always took Willow's increase in TL through the Darkest Magics to mean that Willow did make a deal with something, something Evil, to get that power and would have to pay for it. That is where I was going with one of my stories, Consequences, that was on the old board, but wasn't finished. Instead the drug metaphor for magic got used, and things made less and less sense. Add to that the change in season severed and who knows what they were ever thinking.



Garner

[Sheridan]

Quote:

---

p.s.: Sheridan, I always liked the idea of magic being a function of non-human heritage, either from faerie or an alien race like in MZB's Darkover books, and that would've been an excellent way to make Tara different. Perhaps Tara could have been half-faerie instead of being their original wood sprite idea and that would've explained her closeness to her mother and why her father accused her of being a demon, while still allowing her to be good.

---

DMW That certainly could be possible; Spikes test simply determined that Tara didn't have any demon in her, not that she wasn't supernatural. Another option is that sources of magical power like the Hellmouth could induce a mutation rather like nuclear radiation.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

[darkmagicwillow]

WW, I agree that made-up myths can be great and that the Buffy writers just don't have the command over mythology outside of vampires to do more than a salad bar approach. Vampires are handled well, though without the depth that would've allowed vampires to stay the focus throughout the series. Why do Dru and the Master have hypnotic powers while others don't? Why doesn't VampWillow cast any spells or have similar powers? They had the opportunity to make interesting connections between vampires, witches, and slayers, tying all their magics together through common themes like blood, resurrection, and the Hellmouth. The latter is one obvious explanation for Willow and Tara's different approaches to magic.



Garner, I think a systematic approach can restrain the power of magic more effectively than randomness, but there also needs to be a sense of wonder and mystery to make magic appealing to the viewer, which for example, the Flaming "O" spell, achieves. I think Charmed balances these two needs well with the witches innate powers, standard ability to cast vanquishing spells, and then the occasional high level magic like their transformation in the season finale. BtVS does not. I would've liked to have seen more of the girls' innate powers of telepathy and telekinesis used on a regular basis along with a few standard spells, with the occasional exceptional wondrous magic.



I like when magic has a metaphorical meaning, and season 4 dealt with this beautifully, both with W/T's relationship spells and the core Scoobies rejoining with the union spell at the end. I think they dealt with it well on an episodic basis in early seasons too with episodes like Out of Mind, Out of Sight. However, it was handled very poorly in s6 with the addiction arc, and like you, I have no idea what to make of Smashed or Wrecked and their consequences. Magic as metaphor can be a difficult subject to handle, and it's best dealt with in a book where there's a single story with a single author rather than in a serial multi-author medium like TV.



I don't really have a preference for how people deal with magic. I like magic that has scientific sources, mythological sources, or that comes from completely original ideas. All that matters is how well it's handled. There aren't too many authors that do this well, though. Neil Gaiman has an almost unmatched command of Greek and to a lesser extent Norse, Egyptian, and Japanese mythology and integrates it beautifully with deep original ideas into the modern world. He's the only fantasist I'd compare favorably with Tolkien, though Clive Barker, Stephen Donaldson, and Patricia McKillip are all excellent.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Garner]

DMW, I think anything that would have been done consistently would have been fine, and that is Charmed's biggest plus. They obviously had to decide what the COs could and couldn't do, and then work with that. I also didn't mind the metaphor of magic in season 4, but when they start mixing the metaphors around, that starts to hurt the integrity of how they are working magic itself. I always wondered what happened to the TK and the telepathy. I suppose the telepathy was a victim of the addiction line, though why she didn't ever use it in season severed is a mystery. I guess it just scared her too much?



I've seen Glen Cook do a good job with magic, both in the Black Company series and the Dread Empire series which is REAL hard to find. He has a dimmer view of magic though, all his mages tend to be a bit insane, twisted and unusual to say the least. Stpehen Brust does a good job making a gaming style fantasy have an affect on how the world is structured and that is rare. I always liked Zelazny's MadWand and the Changling for viewing magic in a particular way and the best thing about the Books of Corwin for Amber was his magic. But yeah, a book can be a lot clearer and have better ideas of how magic should be used. I don't know if I like the way Tolkein worked magic or not. He seemed to leave an awful lot unsaid.



I agree that magic shouldn't be entirely random, but it shouldn't be entirely fixed either. Some of that mystery and awe will go away with anything that can be studied, quantified and systematized down to the last little gesture and effect. Charmed does a decent balance for the most part, though they lack some of the ritual style magic that might be cool to see.



Garner

[Sheridan]

Quote:

---

I also didn't mind the metaphor of magic in season 4, but when they start mixing the metaphors around, that starts to hurt the integrity of how they are working magic itself.

---

It doesn't make it any easier to create consistent mechanics when you can't make up your mind what the magic stands for. It went from sex, to addiction, to inate ability, and back to sex again. Probably the single most annoying moment was when Giles told Willow the magic was a part of her; thus negating everything she did after 'Wrecked' and making it a waste of effort.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

[darkmagicwillow]

Glen Cook is good, though I've only read the Black Company books and The Swordbearer. He influenced some of my portrayal of magic in my W/T novel, The Dark Rose. The Buffyverse is a dark place so I think his ideas fit well as a part of that. I would've liked to have seen Willow's embrace of darker magicks follow that of the antagonist in The Swordbearer or The Lady's as hinted at in the BC books.



Tolkien has a deep mythology, and reading his books gives you only the tip of the iceberg in terms of what he thought. If you haven't read The Silmarillion, you're missing out on a lot of what's behind LotR. I don't think his ideas work well out of his world, though I think you might be able to write an interesting W/T in Middle Earth fan fiction if you avoided interacting with the actual events of his books.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/20/03 6:29 pm

[Garner]

W/T in Middle Earth, that could be fun!



Cook's Dread Empire is similar in tone, magic wise, to Black Company or Swordbearer (which, by the way, is his version of Michael Morcock's Elric series in one book.) One just doesn't come away from magic unchanged or altered in some way. Which is why I am still miffed that they didn't have Willow specifically altered by her use of Darkest Magics to go against Glory. The power to take on the Hellgod had to come from somewhere, and I don't buy it was in Willow all along. Taking on a God, no matter how limited, is still going to require higher, or lower, aid of some sort. That was such a missed bet.



Tolkien's magic is much more bred into the fabric of the world that it does not equate well with other worlds or systems, and certainly not from a gaming standpoint. We hardly see many sorcerors besides the Maiar (Istari) the Elves, and the Nazgul (so obviously men can do magic.) It has been so long since I read the Simirallion, that I don't remember most of it. Dry reading but interesting, as I recall.



Sheridan, that's been my point about some of the way Josswad and ME approached magic. If it means too many different things, it can't be kept straight and the way W/T related to the scoobies and the world suffered from it. There could have been a lot of interesting areas to explore how their magic aided the group and was yet still limited and not the center point of the show. I guess that takes more originality and long term thinking than they were capable of.



Garner

[darkmagicwillow]

While in some systems of magic such as Donaldson's Earthpower or McKillip's Landrule, magic is a necessary and essential part of the world, it does not appear to be such in BtVS. Magic is an alteration of the natural order, as Dawn says in Intervention. I'd like to look at specific examples of altering reality here to try to get a feel for what this implies for magic as a whole in the Buffyverse.



The first major reality alteration occurs in The Wish when Anya grants Cordelia's wish that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale, turning the world into a dark place where the Master has risen and Willow is a vampire. Cordelia's intention isn't evil and while Anya's might have been, she confesses her surprise about the outcome of the wish, which is clearly disastrous. Given the unexpected nature of results, which may have spread beyond Sunnydale to affect people like Tara as in SC, perhaps we cannot blame Anya or Cordelia for them, but is it right to alter reality even when the results are good? As a side question, was it ethical to tear Vampire Willow out of her world in Dopplegangland and does the nature of the altered reality influence your answer?



The second major reality alteration occurs in Superstar when Jonathan makes himself the center of the world. While there are obvious evil consequences of the spell with the demon who assaulted Tara, what are the ethical implications of the alteration of reality in itself? Would the creation of a more powerful force for good than the Slayer justify the spell if there was no demon? What if Willow had used this spell to save the Scoobies in Primeval instead of the joining spell--would it have been justified in that situation?



The third major reality alteration of the series occurs with the introduction of Dawn. Unlike the previous two alterations, this one is permanent, affecting the remainder of the series. It too has evil consequences in putting the lives of Buffy and her friends in danger by giving them something Glory wants without letting them know about it. Does the protection of the Key justify this alteration of reality, which affects Willow, Tara, and especially Buffy on a more intimate level than the previous two have? Would it be wrong to undo this change like the previous changes were unmade?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/21/03 8:14 pm

[chilled monkey]

Very interesting comments regarding Dawn and the Key. Personnaly, I've often wondered why the Order of Dagon never tried to get the Key back. Surely Glory didn't wipe them all out.



By the way, a friend of mine and I were discussing Willow's actions in S6. She asked if Willow's abuse of magick would make her a warlock. I said no because "warlock" means "oath-breaker" and Willow has never taken oaths or been properly initiated as Tara probably was. That made me think that if B.M. Tara were to ever occur, she would be a warlock, but Willow would not. At least that's what I think.



Anyway, great thread!

[Garner]

ChilledMonkey, I agree with you on the definitional basis, though that is assuming that Tara has taken a Wiccan "oath" of some sort or one to something in particular. Maybe just nature and the Goddess and God in general?



DMW, I do like the point you make about magic in the Buffyverse being contrary to the established order or the universe. They do seem to think that it is a violation of the natural order for some reason. However, with RL Wiccan beliefs, that's not the case at all and so I tend to discount that aspect of the show, putting it off as bad writing from idiots who don't know any better and are trying to justify why Willow can't do certain things, like bring back Joyce. Hey, a simple ressurrections aren't possible and when tried you get abominations would have been enough! There isn't any real precedent for allowing ressurrections.



Still, your point is valid. I didn't think The Wish changed reality so much as dumped Cordy into an Alternate World where things were different. Thus it didn't change the world like in superstar, but transported Cordy elsewhere.



As for the other point about is the creation of something good, better than the slayer, worth the cost? Well, we sort of had some of that in Angel with the whole Jasmine crap. She did bring about, or was bringing about, a world peace of love, harmony and tranquility at the cost of freedom, individuality, and the ability to change and grow (why do either if everything is perfect) not to mention the few sacrifices she needed to eat. Still, I would say that the creation of a powerful good force that is contrary to the natural order would always have a consequence and a cost. By the same token creation of great evil should also have a balance. In Wizard of Earth Sea there is some very good rational for magic in one area upsetting the balance in others, so wizards are careful what to do. Similarly L.E. Modesitt in his Recluce saga has a balance between order and chaos magic which too much use of one or the other upsets and creates a situation where balance is maintained. (just for the record I never bought the way U.K. Leguin argued that one couldn't create food and then eat it. If you can truly change the very essence of something, you have truly changed it and could consume it. I always thought that bad reasoning to allow the second book to exist, which by far the worst of the first 3.)



Anyway, it is too bad that magic was such a chaotic and shifting thing in ME's minds. It means that putting the magical system into an RPG setting is very difficult. At least the attempt in Eden's Magic Box supplement is not too bad and they even admitted that not many people liked the addiction crap and that you could throw that out. Thank god others see the light there.



Garner

[TromDeGrey]

So, I've been reading through this thread with all these incredible posts and I've been trying to decide how I feel about it all. Trying to finally put to bed the treatment of Magick by ME, as it were. I've been thinking about it since I first saw this thread a few days ago.



I still don't know how I feel.



Forgive me if this turns into therapy. Let me jump to the first questions, or at least one of them. Who is more powerful? I agree that canon clearly dictates that Willow was more "powerful". Why powerful in quotations? Her actions and their results were more readily apparant in the violent world of living on a Hellmouth. In my heart, as a Wiccan, I believe Tara was actually more powerful. And perhaps for the wrong, or maybe it would be better to say for more frightening reasons. I think most would agree that Magick is religion or faith to Tara. Turn on CNN. What are we doing to each other, what are we doing to ourselves in the name of faith and religion? I used to run a chat room where I asked just that of every person who came in. What are you capable of? What would you do in the name of your faith? TO what extent would you follow your religion? I believe I can also say that Magick was Tara's greatest bond to her mother. We never found out, never even got a glimpse really of what Tara was capable of in the name of the faith her mother taught her.



Just a little scary.



I've said it before and I'll probably say it forever, I love the thought of Magick (read:Wicca, not Buffymagick) as a wonderful combination of science and religion. And the old beliefs of everything being connected and intertwined are being proven by science more and more. I used to think of Willow as a magickal scientist, but I now believe the magickal chef is a better metaphor. I considered her scientific in that she only ever looked for results, but french pastry chefs do the same thing, don't they.



Consistency? Pardon me while I laugh. ME proved only to be consistent in poor research, lying and ego waving.



But that's for another thread.



It was always difficult for me to swallow anything magickal from the show. I wanted to throttle Willow the "Bad Ass Wicca" from S3. I had to constantly remind myself that it was just a show. Perhaps that's why I've never been able to make myself actually watch all the episodes up to the end of S6. I live this. Everyday. I've welcomed this force, this Magick into my life. It's there when I wake up. It guides me through my dreams. It's changed the way I live my life, helped me change my career, and colors every prart of me now. It's changed the way I wash my hands for goodness sake!! I realise my faith isn't flashy enough for prime time TV, but there's only so much BS a girl can take. Consistency would have helped. Basing things from myth would have helped too. I could have believed a little more readily then.



I love the questions posed by the altering of reality. Some in the RL will tell you Magick is the bending of the natural order to one's will. It's not something I personally believe, but valid nonetheless. I believe that Magick is movement within the natural order. Doesn't that pose a can of worms in the Buffyverse? So Cordy changed reality with her wish. But if that reality was somewhere within the natural order anyway (if the writers were to write from my standpoint on Magick... Oh wait, consistency. HA!) who says what is right or wrong? It is my personal belief that in all things there must be balance. No good without the bad. Superstar played that out. It's one of the few things they got right. it also doesn't have to have anything to do with Magick.



I was afraid of this. The more I think about ME's crappy magickal merry-go-round the worse my migraine gets. But I'm not bitter. I'm too young to be bitter.

My second favorite household chore is ironing. My first being hitting my head on the top bunk bed until I faint. -Erma Bombeck

Edited by: TromDeGrey at: 6/23/03 6:33 pm