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So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Anything about Willow & Tara, Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson.

So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby TheHighWillowhuggerofOz » Fri May 24, 2002 4:14 pm

Curious question here to make up for my abominably timed and amazingly stupid post about how Tara's death could have been done with dignity.



(Maybe we should get some red shirts and merge with Clan Denial from Highlander)



Basically the question is in Season 4 when do you think Tara and Willow first started to seriously look at each other as dating and when do you think that Willow knew it was love with the Witchiepooh?



I'd like to turn this into a thread of 'montage' sort of with moments from the relationship also that talk about their love but ALSO the motivation by it and whether you think they made the right decision or not.



I'm still of the mind Tara should have helped with Willow's rehab but then again the trsut violation there was abominable in the highest extreme.



TheHighWillowhuggerofOz
 


Re: So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby tommo » Fri May 24, 2002 4:48 pm

Tara knew it was love right away. No doubt. The way she looked at Willow in the Wicca Group meeting kind of indicated that; the soulful gaze; the heavy lidded eyes...it's all kinds of good. :)



Willow? I think she took some time. Not quite sure exactly when and I'm too tired to analyse that right now. But I'm sure I'll come up with something. ;)


----------
"Smut now." - Dark Madfic Tommo

tommo
 


Re: So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby VampNo12 » Fri May 24, 2002 5:15 pm

I agree for Tara I think it was basically love at first sight. You can see this at the end of Hush when W&T are talking in the commons, and Tara tells Willow "She is special". Even though, Tara was quite shy and hiding behind her hair, one gets the sense that Willow has already stolen her heart.



As for Willow this is more tricky because I think she was in love with Tara for quite some time, but didn't want to acknowledge this until Oz made her confront her feelings. I think in Superstar when Tara got hurt and Willow was taking care of her, I think I began to see her crush/deep friendship shift into love. Willow's concern over Tara being injured was more than a good friend, but rather a person who is falling in love upset at seeing her hurt.

VampNo12
 


Re: So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby Sheridan » Fri May 24, 2002 5:16 pm

Well certainly by the beginning of Who Are You. That whole conversation is about why Willow hasn't introduced her girlfriend to the gang , and Willow saying thats she loves her without using the L word. The look on Willows face after:



"I am you know."

"What?"

Yours."



Says it all, of course you can make an argument for the I in Team, after all what was it that changed Willow's mind about taking that crystal? At some point that night she stopped pretending she and Tara were just friends. Really wish we had seen what happened when that door closed. :)

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

Sheridan
 


Re: So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby Taz » Fri May 24, 2002 5:36 pm

Tara love at first sight, Willow had an inkling right off but, definately when Tara says



"I am you know."

"What?"

"Yours."



Wonderful, I'll never forget.

When in doubt go left.

Taz
 


Re: So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby Sheridan » Fri May 24, 2002 5:48 pm

I do think Tara knew from the first moment she set eyes on Willow, but as I say Willow would between I in Tean and Who Are You? Just rewatching Halloween, wonder if Tara ever got to see that outfit? :)

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

Sheridan
 


Re: So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby motownpunk » Fri May 24, 2002 5:58 pm

It's interesting though that Joss (eeevil) claims that he didn't mean for Tara to be Willow's future g/f when he wrote Hush. I find this so hard to believe though - just look at the scenes with them together in that episode. His subconscious must've been working overtime for those scenes.



Anyway, this whole discussion just makes me sad that we never got to see their relationship unfold like W/O B/A and so on.

motownpunk
 


Re: So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby TheHighWillowhuggerofOz » Fri May 24, 2002 6:36 pm

Well there's the 'urban legend' regarding the whole relationship.



Seth Green had a substantial part to play in Season 4. Probably involving Vercua, discovering how to control his werewolf abilities, and Willow coping with having her boyfriend cheat on her and 'changing'



Then Seth green "I'm in Austen Powers and too good for this ****" told Joss to write him off and Joss had to rewrite a substantial portion of Season 4 around it in anger.



Thus making the most beautiful, meaningful, and loving relationship on BTVS a thing born of spite. My guess is that Joss was only toying with Tara as a friend for Willow and maybe a magic partner from the beginning but seth probably was making his ideas known well before they started filming.



So he rewrote her before she was introduced.



He's a genius but a funny genius. In any case I'd rather have someone happy to be there than a relationship I never much cared for (Seth Green as a 'dream boyfriend' in what universe?) any day.



TheHighWillowhuggerofOz
 


Re: So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby Gatito Grande » Fri May 24, 2002 7:38 pm

I think Willow's decision to keep her relationship from Tara secret from Buffy shows some conflicted sexual feelings early on. She's clearly not thinking of Tara as "just another friend" nor as "keeping my witch life separate from the Scoobs." Perhaps she thought Buffy might be jealous of Tara honing in on Buffy's status as "Best Friend" but I think Willow (correctly) guessed that Buffy was far too caught up in Riley to be concerned about that, either. Nope, confusion about her sexual orientation and Tara's role therein looms largest in Willow keeping secrets from the Buffster.



I'm still not exactly clear on when Willow knew it was love, though (I agree w/ everyone else that Tara was a goner on First Sight of Willow). However, I think the events of "Who are You" are key. Being aware that she was keeping Tara a secret (and guilt when Tara subtly called her on it), then deciding, spur of the moment, at The Bronze that the time had come. It would be interesting to know if Tara told Willow that she knew not-Buffy knew, y'know? ;) Tara's certainly smart enough to pick up Faith's snide insinuation! Beyond that, I think the Trip to the Nether-Realm was extremely important (and not just for the orgasmic implications). Willow's repeated "I trust you" speaks of something very profound in their relationship---where the "different from Oz" becomes "beyond Oz."



Yup, come to think of it, the giddyness that Willow displayed at Giles' place w/ Buffy-as-Faith (have I mentioned just how much I love Giddy Willow?) bespeaks much more than "Me and my powerful new friend figured this out" it proclaims *Willow In Love*!!! :love :willow :tara :love



GG Love playing the "when did they" game---used to do it w/ Xena and Gabrielle all the time Out

Gatito Grande
 


Re: So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby nemesystah » Fri May 24, 2002 8:11 pm

[OK, this should probably go in "Pens" but I'm too shy to post it there--really. But the titular question was one I asked myself one day when I had a tad too much time on my hands. And this was the result.



The scene occures in "Who are You?" immediately following the "I am, you know -- yours" dialog. With Willow on the phone getting her "situation update" from Giles.]



Willow cradled the handset of Tara's phone to her ear and half listened to Giles' sonorous speech patterns. With her free hand she absent-mindedly stroked several of the objects on Tara's writing desk. Her middle finger traced the spine of the stapler and then found its way into the hole of the scotch tape dispenser, which she then twirled around her hand like an old west gunslinger. Setting the tape down and trying to eschew all other distractions Willow concentrated on making words and sentences out of the sounds coming from the ear piece, but her thoughts, like her hand, were currently obsessed with all things Tara.



What she did register was Giles remarking on the fortuitousness of Willow having taken just this moment to call, and drolly inquiring about the possibility of her having cast some sort of psychic call forwarding spell on her dorm phone, as he had just rung her there to no avail. And, that he'd finished calling all the other Scoobies together and was beginning to give up hope of locating her. He wanted everyone together for an update on the situation with Faith, nothing to worry about -- good news, mostly -- how soon could she be there?



Willow turned to look at Tara still sitting cross-legged on her bed. "I'm at a friend's dorm, so the usual amount of time I guess." With that, and the usually pleasantries, she hung up.



Tara looked inquiringly at Willow -- but the redhead was at as loss to determine whether that questioning look had to do with the contents of the phone call, or the revelations that had preceded it. Nor was she able to fully separate the two, as both had vied for her thoughts these last few minutes and had confusingly mired themselves together. Then, suddenly, they sorted themselves out, along with a likely response.



Willow jumped in gamely, trying to cover all the bases, "Uh, Giles wants us to meet at his place for an update." Tara's expression dimmed slightly. "But, it didn't sound like any serious Scooby-age is afoot, and if that's the case -- and he doesn't keep us too long -- well, I was wondering . . . if you'd like to go out with me later this evening?"



Tara smiled at that, and answered with feigned nonchalance, "Sure, or we could just hang out . . . h-h-here if you want. Maybe try some new spells."



Willow returned the smile wryly, "Uh Tara, I may not be the most experienced person in this regard -- definitely not the most experienced person in this regard, on a scale of one to ten, I'd rate somewhere in the fractions -- but I think it is usual and customary to go out on a date, especially a first one." Willow paused to let that sink in, and emboldened by Tara's grin, she took a deep breath before continuing. "I'm asking you out -- on a date. Un-unless I'm wrong about . . . this? In which case, forget I said anything"



"N-n-no, not wrong," Tara stammered, still grinning.



"Good. Cuz you know how I hate being wrong. I mean, I miss even one question on a quiz and I'm, like, kicking myself for days, well . . . hours at least. Although that's not as scary as giving the wrong answer aloud in class, which ranks right up there after the fear of being naked in public of course, or being killed by mucus demons." Tara's smile broadened at her friend's babbling, which caused Willow to blush slightly. "So, anyway, you might have noticed . . . not very good with the 'being wrong' thing."



"You're not wrong, Willow."



"Well good, cuz I really . . . hate . . . that. Which, I already said."



"Hadn't you better get going?' Tara asked softly.



"Oh, yeah. I should." Willow glanced at the clock, "Yeah."



"Cuz you know, the sooner you leave, the sooner you'll probably get back."



"Oh, right." Willow grinned, "Give me an hour -- two at the outside. I'll probably stop by my room on the way back to change into something more evening-y. And if Giles' 'situation update' does involve some sort of pressing Scooby response, I'll call you and we can reschedule. OK?"



"Yes." Tara stood up and walked Willow to the door. "Very OK."



Willow ran most of the way to Giles' apartment -- only slowing near the end to keep from arriving completely red-faced and out of breath.



:D





Edited so you no longer have to guess what the punctuation is supposed to be.

Edited by: nemesystah at: 5/24/02 7:52:15 pm
nemesystah
 


Re: So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby Le Serpent Rouge » Fri May 24, 2002 9:16 pm

Like many others, I always thought it was love at first sight for Tara. I think it was especially evident during their conversation at the end of "Hush".



With Willow, I wasn't sure for awhile. I think she was confused about what was happening. Remember that look in "Hush" after they moved the soda machine? When their hands are still clasped & Willow looks at Tara? I think she felt something more then magic or friendship but wasn't sure what it was. I always figured Willow finally acknowledged what she was feeling (to Tara) somewhere between "This Year's Girl" & the beginning of "Who Are You"...perhaps during the ritual hiding. But the whole doll's eye crystal thing is significant somehow. How did Tara finally convince Willow to keep the crystal? Maybe that's when Willow finally admitted to herself what she was feeling for Tara?



** Edited to fix names of episodes & assorted other nonsense. I should never post late at night on a bad allergy day. I always mix everything up.



Le Serpent Rouge :)

Edited by: Le Serpent Rouge at: 5/25/02 7:40:04 am
Le Serpent Rouge
 


hehe

Postby Rane018 » Fri May 24, 2002 9:31 pm

yeah, love at first sight for tara vote here too. but as for willow i'm thinking when Tara let her in that late night of the dolls eye crystal Willow finally internally admitted her feelings.



editing to add:

she must have admitted she loved tara to herself before NMR because according to Joss willow and tara first had sex during the obvious orgasmic *who are you* spell. NMR happens a few eps later and that's when she tells tara and buffy how she feels out loud. doesn't mean she hasn't internalized this already.



it doesn't seem willow would sleep with someone without knowing she was in love with them, especially with unknown territory like another girl. deep down she knew she loved Tara already. and in WAY when Tara admitted she's in love with her. That's why i can see how they'd be able to have that love scene in that ep. Willow knew she loved Tara, Tara knew she loved Willow, Willow knew Tara loved her, Tara knew Willow liked, if not loved her, her. The whole thing with NMR was really Tara's low self esteem issues not Willow not really being in love with her issues. or so that's how i felt about it. did that make any sense?



anyhoo this topic's been discussed before and we always get such replies views on this. it's kinda funny.



Edited by: Rane018 at: 5/24/02 9:16:34 pm
Rane018
 


Re: hehe

Postby The Rose24 » Fri May 24, 2002 9:49 pm

Yeah, this is what I hated about the show being on the WB. We never got to see any of W/T's firsts. All we can do is speculate. I was hoping they would fill in some of the holes, but I guess this will never happen. Like most of you here, I know Tara falls in love with Willow at first sight, but Willow is just so confused as to what is happening between them. I think Willow realizes she is in love Tara before Oz returns, but she is forced to act during and afterwards.



:tara :love :willow



Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.


Willow: Hi, um Tara. I was wondering maybe you want to go out some time for coffee? food? Kisses and gay love?

Edited by: The Rose24  at: 5/24/02 9:37:32 pm
The Rose24
 


Hmmm

Postby AmberBensonRockzMyWorld » Fri May 24, 2002 9:56 pm

WoW, cool topic. Well, I agree with the majority, Tara was definatly in love the first time she laid those wonderfull blue eyes on Willow, (In HUSH). As for Willow, I think she knew pretty early on too, when Tara and her were talking in Hush for the first time and Tara told her she was on her way to look for Willow to see if they could do a spell or something to make people talk again, I think that's when Willow realized there was something very special about Tara. Definatly knew it was love by "Who are You." Well, I hope that was what you were looking for, I'm too tired to actually think Long and hard about something this important. Much Love to all,

Lisa



I :love :tara / Amber 4 Life :grin

This is our Last Embrace, Must I dream and Always see your face.~ Jeff Buckley "Last goodbye"

AmberBensonRockzMyWorld
 


Re: So when do you think Will and Tara knew it was love?

Postby friskylez » Fri May 24, 2002 10:03 pm

I agree that Tara knew from the get go that she was head over heels for Willow...I think for Willow there was an attraction to Tara, but not having been involved with someone of the same sex before, she didnt quite understand the feelings...It took her some time to finally admit what the feelings were and in NMR when she went to Taras room and told her how she felt, that was when "she came out" to herself and admitted how she felt about Tara.



For someone who has never been in that situation before it can be confusing, some give into it and realize its all about the attraction and the love, not the gender of the person...For others and ive had this experience just recently, a person may give into the attraction and it can go on for a few months till that person realizes they cant handle it and breaks it off...



They probably go through life not really understanding the attraction, confused, not able to deal with it...Thank god Willow was strong enough to go with her feelings and not worry about what others would think or we wouldnt have had W/T....

carpe' noctem

friskylez
 


Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby CaptMurdock » Fri May 24, 2002 10:20 pm

Whereas the Night of the Dolls Eye Crystal is indeed significant, I don' t think that was the night Willow admitted (even to herself) that she loved Tara.



Probably what happened that night is that Willow, pissed about Buffy running off with Riley and the Initiative boys, poured her heart out to Tara about her frustrations with her supposed friends, and then segued from there to telling her about Oz (Tara clearly knew about him, judging from her reaction at Giles' in NMR), shedding more than a few tears in the process.



Tara, being the nurturing soul she is, would be supportive and comforting. Willow would apologize for burdening Tara with all her issues, but Tara would shake her head and say it was okay; her mom would always take the time to listen to Tara when she was sad. Willow would have picked up on this and asked Tara about her mom, finding out about her death two years previously. Then it would be Willow's turn to be a good listener and a shoulder to cry on.



The two of them were probably laying on Tara's bed (where they could both sit and be near each other) and after a while, they drifted off to sleep in each other's arms. In the morning, Willow awoke early, feeling the first tug around her heart towards this woman, but not yet ready to say (even to herself) that she was in love with a woman. As she left, leaving Tara asleep, she spied the dolls' eye crystal on a shelf. Scribbling a quick thank-you note, she took the crystal and left, feeling better about herself than she had in a long time.



The netherworld spell, besides revealing that Buffy wasn't herself, connected Willow and Tara on a psychic level, so that for the first time, each knew something of what the other felt. Tara could feel Willow's confusion about her own sexual orientation, but knew that Willow was attracted her regardless. Willow not only knew that Tara was in love with her, but that she was in love with Tara.



When the spell was over, Willow's amazement over Faith's body-switch was almost overwhelmed by the realization that she was in love with Tara. Frankly, if Tara hadn't reluctantly reminded Willow that they needed to fix the Buffy-Faith situation, they might have consummated their feelings then and there.



Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

______________________

"I love you all. I love you more than life itself. You're all f***ing mad." -- Ozzy as "The Dad," THE OSBOURNES.

CaptMurdock
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby ninjitsugrrl » Fri May 24, 2002 10:37 pm

I think Tara knew from pretty much the begining. She just seemed to sense something about Willow. I don't think Willow fully realized it or admitted it to herself until the extra flamey candle scene at the end of "New Moon Rising".

"My life may not be something special but it's never been lived before." - Ani Difranco


My Homepage

ninjitsugrrl
 


My thoughts.

Postby meeeshell » Fri May 24, 2002 10:56 pm

Tara...blah blah blah...first site...blah blah blah.



Willow though, hmmm... I'm pretty certain she felt an intense PHYSICAL attraction after the laundry scene in Hush. If you look at the intensity of her eyes and her agape jaw, you can definitely see that she felt something! And if you've read the un-cut tv script, you'll see that she continued to hold on to Tara's hand a few seconds longer than previously shown and when Tara tried to pull it back, Willow didn't release her.



As for when Willow realized it was love...well that was probably after much inner debate. She probably analysed it in a psychological fashion her mother probably instilled in her, a social one, even a scientific one, and tried to label her her true feelings as something else, a phase, false excitement projection (aka the intensity of the touch due to the spell), intense protective feelings...ect...



But what I think happend is that while she searched every nook of knowledge and used every rationalization in her head, in a totally random moment... in a mundane setting that we didn't see on-screen, Willow looked at Tara and all her logic dissapeared and she just knew. To me, Willow would realize her love for Tara in an enigma; a flash of insight.



I see this happening sometime before "I trust you". Willow's first declaration of her love to Tara was probably in the Extra Flamey Scene that we saw onscreen.



"Grrrr...Arrrrgggghhhh" Tara

meeeshell
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby Warduke » Fri May 24, 2002 10:57 pm

Quote:
When the spell was over, Willow's amazement over Faith's body-switch was almost overwhelmed by the realization that she was in love with Tara. Frankly, if Tara hadn't reluctantly reminded Willow that they needed to fix the Buffy-Faith situation, they might have consummated their feelings then and there.




Actually they did consummate their relationship then and there.

There has been some discussion about when was their first time but not anymore, not after this…



Joss’ commentary in the DVD Season Four Overview.



"We shot one of the steamiest sex scenes we've ever shot, which was designed specifically to be their first sex scene".



He says this while the Flaming O is on screen.



So that's that, W/T first made love after the Flaming O (which was the metaphor we got to see on TV) and in the Buffyverse, it was the spell they did before consummation ;)



_________________________

The Bell Tolls For Thee

Warduke
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby The Rose24 » Fri May 24, 2002 11:04 pm

Why should we we believe anything Joss says now?

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.


Willow: Hi, um Tara. I was wondering maybe you want to go out some time for coffee? food? Kisses and gay love?

The Rose24
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby xita » Fri May 24, 2002 11:08 pm

well he wrote it. I mean... that's a given. We may not like what he does but he wrote it. And Marti is the one that said they were lovers before NMR as well in the commentary, it is not really up for debate anymore.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow and Tara Love

Truly and Forever

Edited by: xita  at: 5/24/02 10:10:16 pm
xita
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby CaptMurdock » Fri May 24, 2002 11:11 pm

Quote:
Joss’ commentary in the DVD Season Four Overview.



"We shot one of the steamiest sex scenes we've ever shot, which was designed specifically to be their first sex scene".



He says this while the Flaming O is on screen.




[Voice of Ash from Army of Darkness]



Hold it there, Spinach-Chin!



[/Voice of Ash from Army of Darkness]



Are you saying that there was a love scene shot, Aly, Amber, not a lot of clothes, and we didn't see it because the WB are a bunch of misogynistic, homophobic mouth-breathers?



You mean there might be a scene we can actually see someday of Willow and Tara's First Time?



Be still, my shorts -- heart! Heart! Be still, my heart.



______________________

"I love you all. I love you more than life itself. You're all f***ing mad." -- Ozzy as "The Dad," THE OSBOURNES.

CaptMurdock
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby Rally » Fri May 24, 2002 11:16 pm

So Brian, are you saying there is some sort of connection with Willow and Tara spending all night in Tara's dorm room... and the fact the they didn't go to Giles house until the next day?

------------




Officially, of course, I have to say that I have no idea what you're talking about.

Rally
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby Warduke » Fri May 24, 2002 11:20 pm

Yes Rally, and the fact that they changed their clothes, seems something did happen...but what?



It's was a metaphor (a damn sexy one at that) not a deleted sex scene.

_________________________

The Bell Tolls For Thee

Warduke
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby Rally » Fri May 24, 2002 11:22 pm

So you're saying that Willow was what, sub-letting the dorm room from Tara?

------------




Officially, of course, I have to say that I have no idea what you're talking about.

Rally
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby Warduke » Fri May 24, 2002 11:24 pm

Not quite Rally, what I'm saying is that Willow and Tara went downtown that night ;)

_________________________

The Bell Tolls For Thee

Warduke
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby CaptMurdock » Fri May 24, 2002 11:25 pm

Well, I knew that the Flaming O spell was a metaphor for them Getting It On. I was just wondering if there was a Real Getting It On scene as well.



Oh, well.

:(

______________________

"I love you all. I love you more than life itself. You're all f***ing mad." -- Ozzy as "The Dad," THE OSBOURNES.

CaptMurdock
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby Rally » Fri May 24, 2002 11:29 pm

So Brian, they went downtown...



Yes, but how?



By car or maybe bus, taxi? ;)

------------




Officially, of course, I have to say that I have no idea what you're talking about.

Rally
 


Re: Dolls-Eye Kristalnacht vs. Flaming O spell

Postby AutumnT » Fri May 24, 2002 11:40 pm

LOL. Oh the irony of xita declaring a thread to be not about sex. Oh the irony. ;)



In the love camp I'm actually not sure I believe in love at first site. Call me a cynic. Sure Tara was intrigued, infatuated, and attracted. But I see her offering the doll's eye crystal as her offering her heart. Her initial statement of love.



Willow is more tough, but something did happen later that night. And yes, I see "I trust you" repeated twice as her declaration. And her reward. Big ole flaming O. Hell of a reward. That Tara is some anchor.

Autumn

-----------

Well, the reindeer part was nice...

AutumnT
 


Love at first sight

Postby Maclay Tara » Sat May 25, 2002 12:36 am

I think Tara definately loved Willow from first sight, but I actually think Willow did, too. I mean...just look at the way she smiles at Tara after she says "No, you are".

Maclay Tara
 

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