Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[Oriyon]

AutumnT ,,,,, If you could post this to the media response thread I'd be grateful. I looked and wasn't sure which thread you meant.

Oriyon

[The Destroyer]

[quote:8defa9b032][b:8defa9b032][i:8defa9b032]Quote:[/i:8defa9b032][/b:8defa9b032]

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I submit that any such harm PALES in comparison to the harm ME themselves caused. Yeah, pretty amazing given the astronomical rate of suicide attempts amongst gay kids (The Boston Globe recently reported that 40% of Massachusetts gay teens attempt suicide. 40%). [quote:8defa9b032][b:8defa9b032][i:8defa9b032]Quote:[/i:8defa9b032][/b:8defa9b032]

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No, we shouldnt be worried at all about a rich producer compared to gay teens. but to say ME contributed to that is a wholly different matter. You're giving a TV show way too much credit for why these kids would attempt this. Direct the anger at a more useful enemy. After all, there are

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[AutumnT]

Done, I put it here: pub106.ezboard.com/ftheki...1&stop=463

[Wiccagrrl313]

[quote:cc0167605f][b:cc0167605f][i:cc0167605f]Quote:[/i:cc0167605f][/b:cc0167605f]

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No, we shouldnt be worried at all about a rich producer compared to gay teens. but to say ME contributed to that is a wholly different matter. You're giving a TV show way too much credit for why these kids would attempt this. Direct the anger at a more useful enemy. After all, there are

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[/quote:cc0167605f]

Well, at the very least I will say I don't think it helped. And yeah, I think it did cause real harm. Because it pulled the rug out from under a lot of young gay/questioning Buffy fans. It took what a lot of people considered a safe harbor, a positive relationship they could trust, a show and writing staff that they felt was giving them a message that it was ok to be themselves, and totally destroyed that. Snuffed out what a lot of people had invested a great deal of hope and trust in. And then mocked the pain/frustration of those who felt hurt/betrayed. I think it's easy to underestimate the effect media images can have. But I think that a lot of harm *was* done here, and I'm not willing to just sit down, shut up, and give Joss and Co. a free pass on this. He talked more than once about the good the relationship had done, the positive effect it had had. He can't have it both ways. If he was responsible for the good, he's just as responsible, if not *more* responsible, for the damage and pain caused here.

[roamin]

[quote:ebbde252e4][b:ebbde252e4][i:ebbde252e4]Quote:[/i:ebbde252e4][/b:ebbde252e4]

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I, and several others, feel that your current efforts to spread the word about your cause could end up having a disastrous impact and/or effect on "Buffy" and other shows made and/or marketed by Fox, ME, and Joss and Co, regardless of whether or not that was your original intent. I've calmed down enough to give you guys the benefit of the doubt right now concerning your claims that you are not actively trying to get "Buffy" and other ME/Joss Whedon shows cancelled

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[/quote:ebbde252e4]

okay - this is the funniest thing I've ever read. I never knew we welded such power! Able to get a show cancelled just by voicing our displeasure.

Seriously though, a lot of Buffy fans may not be able to admit it but they obviously realize on some level that their beloved show and their flawless leader are in a bit of trouble due to a slide in over all quality of the show as well as what I think was a failure to realize that in the post Sept 11th word a dark depressing story featuring flawed and failing heroes was NOT what viewers wanted to see and definitely not what they needed.

But since folks over at the Buffy Guide and people like RS can't admit that ME made some bad choices, they need to come here and blame those "crazy lesbians" sorry straight guys and gals - I guess you aren't very threatening.

[Kendahl897]

If the ratings continue to slide next year and the 7th sesaon is it's last, then really Joss will have no one to blame but himself..Alot of people have said that last season sucked..Not just us.You could argue that we have been the most vocal critics because of what happend to Willow and Tara, but lots of fans, as well as critics, have had alot to complain about. The degredation of Spike, the degredation of Buffy by Spike, especially in the Bronze scene where he entered her from behind to prove his domination over her (I had to turn the channel), Dawn's incessant whining, Willow's stupid addiction line( one minute it's about using magic for a sense of power, the next episode, she's floating on the freaking wall like a junkie) and so on...The truth of the matter is that if you don't give your fans what they need or want, they will find another person who will..

[Sheridan]

[quote:ad66bb91f1][b:ad66bb91f1][i:ad66bb91f1]Quote:[/i:ad66bb91f1][/b:ad66bb91f1]

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The truth of the matter is that if you don't give your fans what they need or want, they will find another person who will..

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[/quote:ad66bb91f1]

hmm when is the [b:ad66bb91f1] Smallville[/b:ad66bb91f1] Season premiere?

[Willowlicious]

[quote:42b32352f2][b:42b32352f2][i:42b32352f2]Quote:[/i:42b32352f2][/b:42b32352f2]

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No, we shouldnt be worried at all about a rich producer compared to gay teens. but to say ME contributed to that is a wholly different matter. You're giving a TV show way too much credit for why these kids would attempt this. Direct the anger at a more useful enemy.

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[/quote:42b32352f2]

I don't think saying that ME ultimately contributed to this is a stretch at all. Why do gay youth feel the need to attempt suicide? Well, that's a complex matter, but in a nutshell it is safe to say it has to do with parents, other family members and friends not accepting and/or understanding homosexuality. It has to do with not being able to relate to the world around you the way a straight kid might because most people don't seem to feel the way you do and you're having a hard time finding people you trust that you can talk to about all these scary "feelings" you've been having for people of the same sex.

It comes from not seeing many, if any, positive role models in the media that give you hope that your feelings are normal and okay and that you, too, have hopes of a bright, safe, happy future. And it comes from having the few positive role models that you can find portrayed in the media being celibate, unhappy, alone, [i:42b32352f2] blown away by a stray bullet, or becoming evil.[/i:42b32352f2] It comes from hearing TV writers say they discussed having the lesbian character you related to going back to boys, reinforcing society's mistaken belief that you can turn gay "on and off" and gay people [i:42b32352f2] could[/i:42b32352f2] change...if they only wanted to.

Being gay is sometimes isolating and scary, especially if you're young. ME reached out its hand to these kids and started to pull them up, only to abruptly let go and drop them on their asses.

You think that didn't do any harm?

[i:42b32352f2] It did.[/i:42b32352f2]

Amy

[BBOvenGuy]

Darn it, I really wanted to be threatening...

Do I want to bring about the total destruction of Mutant Enemy? Heavens no. Why would I care enough to want that? What I do want is for them to correct and improve their behavior. I want to hold their misdeeds up for scrutiny by anyone who cares to look, in the hope that doing so will persuade Mutant Enemy to change their ways.

And what happens if they don't listen? Chances are that Mutant Enemy's shows will shrivel up and die on their own. In fact, I won't be surprised if all three series are gone by this time next year. A repetitively depressing storyline, insensitivity to their audience's needs, betrayal of their audience's trust... these are things that will drive viewers away all by themselves. Don't blame us for doing the play-by-play and color commentary - what's happening would still be happening whether we were telling people about it or not.

[Wiccagrrl313]

Waitin' for Gilmore Girls myself

Anyway, the fact is we're just voicing our opinions about what happened here, both on and off screen. And we have every right, hell, even a responsibility, to do so.

And if the show *is* in trouble, the fault lies with the creators. I *wish* we had the kind of influence where we could take the credit/blame for that (well, no, not really, but I wouldn't mind our voices being heard that loudly) The fact is, dissatisfaction with the show has been widespread, and started to be very noticable long before Tara's death. We're just one (fairly vocal, I'll admit) segment of the steadily growing group of ex-fans.

[AutumnT]

[quote:c6721ec1bc][b:c6721ec1bc][i:c6721ec1bc]Quote:[/i:c6721ec1bc][/b:c6721ec1bc]

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but to say ME contributed to that is a wholly different matter. You're giving a TV show way too much credit for why these kids would attempt this.

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[/quote:c6721ec1bc] I am? Tell us have you studied the results of media images on the gay teen psyche? Have you experienced it first hand? Do you know what it is like to be a gay kid in the middle of nowhere America with bigoted parents and no gay role models where the only place you can see anything that resembles who you are is on TV? Have you even read any of the studies on gay teen suicide? Were you here on the kitten board when we had to deal with counseling some of our younger members who were upset? I didn't think so.

I think we can all agree that it is sad, very sad that there are so very few representations for gay youth to look to when they are feeling lost and alone. Now there are fewer and the message that gays live unhappy lives is reinforced. Perhaps you should read some of the interviews with Aly and Amber in which they talk about the amazing outpouring of letters they have received about helping these kids through their roles. Maybe that might help to make it clearer to you that this show did indeed have a very important impact. And sadly it is no longer a positive one.

So no, we aren't worried about what happens if any of Joss Whedon's shows are canceled. And your continuing insinuation that we should care or that we have somehow something to do with it when Joss is fully responsible for what he puts on the screen is ludicrous. Shows with viewers stay on the air regardless of content. Shows without do not. It's really quite simple.

[hilarita]

im constantly surprised that people dont take media portrayals seriously. all you have to do is look to the emergence of anorexia over the past few decades...hundreds of women have *starved themselves to death* in reaction to media portrayals. if that doesnt count as serious i dont know what does.

[Sheridan]

There is also this ongoing presumption by those attacking the Kittens that being upset about what happened to Willow and Tara is purely a gay preserve. It was shabby treatment of a an established character, and an actress who had put her heart and soul into the show. That W/T were such a powerful positive image for a lot of people makes shabby into tragic. Again Isay to the likes of RS and Destroyer go read the 'have you ever been disowned by a family member?' thread. Then you would see that there a good many gay and lesbian people out there with precious little in the way of support mechanisms and indeed often facing outright hostility. As melodramatic as it may seem taking away a source of positive images like W/T may have had a serious effect for people who were already at the end of their resources.

[Kieli]

And I ask, yet AGAIN, why in the hell are we giving these people that attention they so obviously crave? *raised eyebrow* It makes no sense to engage in conversations with those have made it pretty clear where they stand and just come over here to stir up the hornets nest when things get boring and the flames have died down a bit. Just as things were getting somewhat quiet, in come the trolls, looking for a little action. You people (said trolls and others from other boards looking to tell us how wrong we are) are boring me, in all honesty. The tune is the same and you're not really here to listen to our arguments (well, maybe Digiwriter but what I've read of this person's stuff so far isn't much so I may have to go re-read a few things) or even see our side.

And thus, PLEASE, O Moderators Fantastico, put these people out of their misery-making ways, and delete them? Haven't we had enough frickin' conflict and annoying trolling for one season?

[i:7b7a1e42ca] Goes off on holiday, thoroughly disgusted with herself for losing her cool. [/i:7b7a1e42ca] I think getting away from the Kitten might help my blood pressure.

T.

[The Destroyer]

[quote:25d4e3a502][b:25d4e3a502][i:25d4e3a502]Quote:[/i:25d4e3a502][/b:25d4e3a502]

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Tell us have you studied the results of media images on the gay teen psyche? Have you experienced it first hand? Do you know what it is like to be a gay kid in the middle of nowhere America with bigoted parents and no gay role models where the only place you can see anything that resembles who you are is on TV? Have you even read any of the studies on gay teen suicide? Were you here on the kitten board when we had to deal with counseling some of our younger members who were upset? I didn't think so.[quote:25d4e3a502][b:25d4e3a502][i:25d4e3a502]Quote:[/i:25d4e3a502][/b:25d4e3a502]

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It's generally the polite thing to do to wait for an answer before making an assumption. Yes, I have experienced the effect of bigoted media on a gay teen psyhce. I've been the president of my college's GLBT society, and read a lot of literature surrounding those issues. I know what its like to be a gay kid, in the middle of England, with no gay role modles. I've attempted suicide twice. I faced constant verbal and physical and verbal abuse for three years because I was the only out gay kid at my school. So dont you DARE assume I dont understand, or feel, the issues just because I dont agree with you.
Maybe I'm impartial, because for a while Buffy was the only thing that kept me going (maybe still is), and this was pre-Tara. The story is irrelevant here, but i saw Buffy's coming to terms with being a slayer as a metaphor for being gay. It gave me hope and made me stronger. Still does.
Maybe I phrased what I said in the wrong way, but I meant that Buffy shouldnt have a great effect on anyone. Tara wasnt killed because she was gay. This is the only show I have ever seen where being gay isnt an issue. Dawsons Creek, ER, Six Feet Under - as good as they may be, its all about the storyline, nothing more. For two and a half years, Buffy showed a loving happy gay relationship, and it was brought down by a misogynistic bastard who wasnt even aiming for them. That imparts no message about the gay lifestyle (compare this to Ally McBeal where she was perfectly entiteld to ditch a guy because he was bi, and therefore more liable to disease and promiscuity. I'm not joking). Warren was the bad guy, not Tara.
I can completely understand that it would devastate young gay fans that this relationship has gone. But surely its better to direct them to rage againts very real political circumstances that discriminate against them, rather than encourage them to hate a show that has done

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[kyraroc]

(Willowlicious, yeah . . . at several points during that article I thought to myself, um, didn't we write that? Do you think this is bothersome enough that we should do anything about it?)

As for the rest of the back-and-forth that's been going on here . . . I've tried throughout my comments on this topic to reply to respectfully to all responses to the FAQ, but quite honestly, some of the arguments being used against it are getting silly. We should respond to something we found offensive not with a reasoned explanation of why we found it so but instead with, er, love? (Not that I mind love, but, um . . . huh?) Or my favorite, which, I must admit, comes from a different thread on this board, where someone enjoined us to stop on the grounds that, horror of horrors, people were making fun of us over at the Bronze.

And while I respect the polite tone of the person who asked us to stop making our arguments because of the slight chance that they might actually have some kind of effect, well . . . I think my point here is self-explanatory.

--- KR

[AutumnT]

You know, you continue to purposely miss the point. I'm done. You're right if Buffy or Angel or FireFly is cancelled it is [b:0249e68568] all our fault[/b:0249e68568]. WOO HOO! Thinking we have that power isn't silly at all. In fact you should be commended for ferreting us out. We made Joss write a shitty season of Buffy. We told him that rape was a cool theme to keep revisiting. Wait until you see the scripts we are forcing him to write next year. We used the Gay Mafia to influence the media in general to speak out against this season's quality. We kidnapped Joss' assistant to keep Whedon from getting an Emmy. We told Joss that people really want a dull space western and that first pilot was money well spent no matter what FOX thought. Well, because we control FOX too. And best of all, we ran around like monkeys and changed the channels all over our cities to make ratings dive.

I have one thing more to say.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[xita]

[quote:9d291d4c14][b:9d291d4c14][i:9d291d4c14]Quote:[/i:9d291d4c14][/b:9d291d4c14]

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Not only is that last argument obvious trolling but it is in fact against the rules of the FAQ. Hopefully that will finally be enough to rid ourselves of this.
Autumn
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[/quote:9d291d4c14]

It is done. RS is banned for continued violations of the FAQ.


And Destroyer, if one kid was affected negatively by it, it is one too many. And you make assumptions that we don't care about other non media issues that affect young teenagers or that we don't do anything about those issues. This is a w/t board, this is the topic and that is what people will complain about here. You yourself say the metaphor of Buffy coming out as a slayer helped you deal. You know why that is, because like it or not, closted teens face the most self hatred because of what they see in their homes and hear from their parents and what they see in the media. As a young isolated teen, the only gay rolemodels I had were on tv. So when they are harmed, it is perhaps more damaging then your so called "real" issues. The hypocrisy of you saying, buffy helped me but it certainly isn't cool for you to go on and on about how it hurt people is beyond me.


Oh yeah Autumn, I never knew that less than 50 really angry folks could bring down companies worth tens of millions of dollars, maybe we could get Michael Moore to features us

[Sheridan]

[b:011f6050eb] Destroyer[/b:011f6050eb] but TV does have a huge impact on our society and peoples behaviour, it's where most of our cultural icons come from and how many habits of speech and behaviour have been assimilated from TV? Face it all those companies spending money on advertising are doing so because they think TV afffects peoples beliefs and opinions.

[quote:011f6050eb][b:011f6050eb][i:011f6050eb]Quote:[/i:011f6050eb][/b:011f6050eb]

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I never knew that less than 50 really angry folks could bring down companies worth tens of millions of dollars,

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[/quote:011f6050eb]

Well if we worked for Arthur Andersen maybe...

[Zahir al Daoud]

1. What limits? More importantly--who gets to decide? And why?
2. Maybe? Go learn.
3. Okay. We're giving feedback. Rah for us.
4. I've seen your earlier posting, hence my questions. I've already stated what your opinions appear to be from them.
5. Ditto.
6. In this context you sound like you're just looking for a good argument. Perhaps you should do this without insulting people you claim shouldn't insult others, or pouring salt into wounds you evidently (see #2) don't take very seriously.

[DigificWriter]

[b:3888199126] Boston[/b:3888199126] -
You brought up some very good points. However, according to my understanding of what you're trying to accomplish, the whole goal of this board is to do the following:
1) Increase public awareness of the Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliche
2) Get Joss and Co. to admit their mishandling of the W/T situation and that they were wrong in said mishandling
3) Get Joss and Co. to fix the problems created by their mishandling of the W/T situation.
4) Get Joss and Co to acknowledge the outrage caused by their mishandling of the W/T situation and other bad judgment choices made throughout the course of S6.

In your post, you talk about how having your actions create a NEGATIVE effect is, to some extent, the exact intention of your efforts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding, all of the things that you want to accomplish are positive, not negative.

[b:3888199126] Sheridan[/b:3888199126]-
Possible NEGATIVE ramifications that could result from your attempts to accomplish the above things (and the things that Boston talked about in his post) are:
1) The premature cancellation of Buffy and other Joss Whedon-helmed projects (I've accepted that the majority of you aren't out to actively get said programs cancelled, but that, because of your anger, you wouldn't be sorry if said programs were cancelled).
2) The alienation of a vast majority of Buffy fans who, while they do sympathise with your opinions, have their own opinions, some of which do not coincide with your own.
3) A negative effect on other Buffy fans' perception of the Kitten board and its members because of unintended negative ramifications resulting from your efforts (If you want evidence of your efforts having resulted in a negative perception of this board and its members, take a look at the following posts on the WD board:
[b:3888199126] *edited by xita because we have no interest in board conflicts [/b:3888199126]

[b:3888199126] AutumnT[/b:3888199126] -
I am not condoning the way in which Joss and Co. have handled the W/T situation, and did not meant to imply that I am.

[b:3888199126] To this board as a whole[/b:3888199126]-
There are constructive ways to accomplish this board's goals (which I've outlined above according to my understanding) without causing negative ramifications. Submitting the POVs of this board, its members, and the gay/lesbian community as a whole regarding the W/T situation and Joss and Co.'s handling of said situation to news shows such as Inside Edition and Extra is one way of doing so; another way is to do exactly what you're doing (spreading the word about your anger and Joss and Co.'s mishandling of the W/T situation), but without letting your anger overshadow your better judgment and completely influence your conduct in the public forum.

[The Destroyer]

Right, I am wholly confused as to all the words that are apparently put into my mouth. Generally what I say is what I mean. Nothing more.
I have never said you should stop complaining about this. If you see it call it. Fine. If people are hurt, let everyone know. Thats a good thing.
My whole point was that there's no reason to stop talking about this. Its good that the lesbian cliche is being made aware of. But Joss and ME arent the ultimate enemy, yet you are treating them as if theyre worse than all the homophobes put together.
I've had some good chats with Kittens today who say that theyre only aim is to spread awareness. But when I say that I dont think aiming all attention at ME is the most constructive thing to do, I'm treated as a troll who has no respect for what you feel.
Thats wrong, I do. I love Willow and Tara. I would die for those I loved, and the right to be who I am. All I have ever done is raise a few questions rather than tell you to shut up.

[relativegirl]

[b:b8ee6cbf08] Willowlicious[/b:b8ee6cbf08] said: [quote:b8ee6cbf08][b:b8ee6cbf08][i:b8ee6cbf08]Quote:[/i:b8ee6cbf08][/b:b8ee6cbf08]

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I'm a bit perplexed that a college professor and published author (including, ironically, Unspeakable: The Rise of the Gay & Lesbian Press in America) would cop the term "dead/evil lesbian cliche" from the FAQ and indeed plagiarize direct quotes from it without siting the source of the information or bothering to rewrite the material lifted from it. That's kind of...odd.

The FAQ is to share and be used as a source for articles, to be sure, but don't steal from it blatantly and act like you came to its conclusions all on your own. Especially if you're a professor who studies and writes about gay press.

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[/quote:b8ee6cbf08]
And [b:b8ee6cbf08] Kyraroc[/b:b8ee6cbf08] said: [quote:b8ee6cbf08][b:b8ee6cbf08][i:b8ee6cbf08]Quote:[/i:b8ee6cbf08][/b:b8ee6cbf08]

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(Willowlicious, yeah . . . at several points during that article I thought to myself, um, didn't we write that? Do you think this is bothersome enough that we should do anything about it?)

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[/quote:b8ee6cbf08]

I know that you two already know this, but as authors of the FAQ, you own the copyright to it. If you decide you want to contact the esteemed professor, or if you want to just discuss the options for acknowledging the plagarism, and want any assistance from a legal kitten, just drop me an email.

[i:b8ee6cbf08] edited to add my 2 cents[/i:b8ee6cbf08]: I am not the kitten board and I certainly do not speak for the board, but for what it's worth, my goals have little to do with ME. Personally, I believe ME, Joss and Marti to be irredeemable based on their litany of offensive statements since May. I have no dillusions that anything I say will change ME's beliefs or conduct.

I do believe that simply speaking out rather than staying silent has inherent value even if it does not change anyone's beliefs or conduct. Speaking out reaffirms in my own mind who I am and what I will and will not tolerate from this world and the people in it. That is value enough.

I also believe that by speaking out we may be sowing tiny seeds in the minds of people we do not know who may one day be the heads of studios or directors or writers and who may be influenced in their decision making by fruit of those tiny seeds.

In short, no longer care enough about BtVS to trouble myself over its ratings or cancellation. Ditto Angel, ditto Firefly. My life is too short & far too precious to ever allow myself to be contaminated by the likes of Joss Whedon.

[xita]

Digific Writer:

You don't know what we plan to do, what our long term goals are. Just so you know, this board is not the end of the line for this, this is only one aspect you get to see. This is just a place where we are ourselves, I keep it public because I want young impressionable teens to know, that SOMEONE has the guts to stand up for them.
Your points were [quote:2fafba9776][b:2fafba9776][i:2fafba9776]Quote:[/i:2fafba9776][/b:2fafba9776]

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Possible NEGATIVE ramifications that could result from your attempts to accomplish the above things (and the things that Boston talked about in his post) are:
1) The premature cancellation of Buffy and other Joss Whedon-helmed projects (I've accepted that the majority of you aren't out to actively get said programs cancelled, but that, because of your anger, you wouldn't be sorry if said programs were cancelled).
2) The alienation of a vast majority of Buffy fans who, while they do sympathise with your opinions, have their own opinions, some of which do not coincide with your own.
3) A negative effect on other Buffy fans' perception of the Kitten board and its members because of unintended negative ramifications resulting from your efforts

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[/quote:2fafba9776]

1. I don't care. We have nothing to do with that, that is their product. They put it out there, they advertise. They put out season 6, they created our reaction. They live with it.

2. What do we have to gain by that. Buffy abandoned us, the larger Buffy community is certainly not my concern anymore. This is a w/t board, tossed aside by ME, we don't belong to the larger Buffy community.

3. Again, we've never been Buffy fandom favorites. I know because of all the people I have had to delete in 2 years. I personally don't care. I don't like most of the other boards. I hope they don't mind.

[b:2fafba9776] Destroyer[/b:2fafba9776], you do understand this is a w/t board. Sometimes little things spark rebellion. I know myself, I have been much too dormant since early activist college days. I can't save the world. People need to focus on one thing. Media has long been an interest of mine, it should follow that my activism take shape in that medium. This isn't for instance a religious board, if it was, you might find that those topics are what would incur our ire.

[Sheridan]

[b:ac179691c8] 1) The premature cancellation of Buffy and other Joss Whedon-helmed projects (I've accepted that the majority of you aren't out to actively get said programs cancelled, but that, because of your anger, you wouldn't be sorry if said programs were cancelled).[/b:ac179691c8]

The simple truth is that if these shows are any good then people will watch regardless of what we say, and if they don't then it may well be rather like the X-Files in that it should have ended long before it did. Prior to SR I was geared up to watch Firefly and give it a chance to get off the ground. Now I have no intention of watching it. That's my right, if it damages the shows prsopects that is Joss' fault for alienating his audience.

[b:ac179691c8] 2) The alienation of a vast majority of Buffy fans who, while they do sympathise with your opinions, have their own opinions, some of which do not coincide with your own.[/b:ac179691c8]

Which seems to translate as patting the Kittens on the head and saying "Yes we know your upset, now be good little lesbians and shut up so we can get on with watching the attempted rapist score with Buffy."

[b:ac179691c8] 3) A negative effect on other Buffy fans' perception of the Kitten board and its members because of unintended negative ramifications resulting from your efforts (If you want evidence of your efforts having resulted in a negative perception of this board and its members, take a look at the following posts on the WD board:[/b:ac179691c8]

Which seems to be saying "We've
tolerated you up to now, but if you won't shut up we'll get nasty." Why exactly would we care what other boards think of us? They've made it quite clear they that they don't share our pain and that they we only have a right to our viewpoint so long as we don't mention it in public. Is this some new incarnation of 'Don't ask Don't tell'?

[The Destroyer]

OK, Xita I understand. Its all about how we feel after all. And thats why I open my big mouth too much. Just this show has got me thru an awful lot, still does, even before W/T, so I feel territorial over it :-) But I can understand if you feel the anger, its valid (hell, I was happy when Ally M was cancelled and that was just one episode)
I think its great that youre a focus for young gay teens that need it. Do you have a section which provieds numbers and adresses if they have issues? If yoiu dont, that would be an even bigger plus.
I still disagree, but I'll leave my arguments to when they appear on other boards. Best of luck.

[DigificWriter]

[b:ccaea292de] xita[/b:ccaea292de]-
I've expressed my opinions and it's clear that you (and many others) don't agree with them or even care about them. That's your prerogative. Like I said, I based the points I came up with on MY understanding of Boston's post and from what I've garnered from reading this and other posts on this board. If the points I made were flawed, then it means that my understanding was flawed. I initially came here to offer you a better understanding of the fears of myself and others on the WD board (many of whom got into a shouting match with Ben_Varkentine and hilarita) while trying to keep in mind and attempt to sympathise with your position and opinions as I understand them, and in doing so have been enlightened considerably. If you feel that I've been hostile or unsympathetic, then I apologize for making you feel that way. I've tried to look at this situation from the point of view of yourself and this board, but it is obvious that you don't think I have any clue what that POV is.

[Wiccagrrl313]

[quote:16aa89728e][b:16aa89728e][i:16aa89728e]Quote:[/i:16aa89728e][/b:16aa89728e]

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To this board as a whole-
There are constructive ways to accomplish this board's goals (which I've outlined above according to my understanding) without causing negative ramifications. Submitting the POVs of this board, its members, and the gay/lesbian community as a whole regarding the W/T situation and Joss and Co.'s handling of said situation to news shows such as Inside Edition and Extra is one way of doing so; another way is to do exactly what you're doing (spreading the word about your anger and Joss and Co.'s mishandling of the W/T situation), but without letting your anger overshadow your better judgment and completely influence your conduct in the public forum.

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[/quote:16aa89728e]

Funny, here I thought this was *precisely* what we've been doing. And will continue to do. With or without other people's blessing.

Is there anger involved? Of course. Is it overshadowing our judgement and completely influencing our conduct in the public forum? Not from what I've seen. Are there people who will write us off as those hysterical, angry lesbians no matter *what* we say or how we say it? Most definitely.

Destroyer, I understand your point, but think you are wrong in assuming that the only concern any of the Kittens have with regards to the gay community has to do with W/T or ME. Is that our focus on the board right now? Yep. And will continue to be for a while, especially since this *is* a W/T board. But, have you noticed the Kitten Charity thread? Or many of the other topics on the board that are more generally GLBT themed, and not necessarilly W/T?

Obviously, this issue has become near and dear to many Kitten's hearts. The way this was handled stung. And whether you mean to or not, the gist of your last couple of posts have come across as "get over it", and I for one am not ready or willing to. There are other issues I care about too, but this *does* matter to me, and I make no apologies about that.

[BostonWillowFan]

DigificWriter,

I don't really see where we are disagreeing here, at least between you and me. As, I hope, can be seen by the types of posts I've been making, I'm nothing if not calm, rational, and thoughtful in my comments. Exactly, if I understand you correctly, the sort of "voice" that Kittens should be using with the outside world.

Here, however, there is no such need. This is our "house" and we can do what we want. I looked at the postings you provided links for. I don't think what they are claiming is exactly true, but after a point it is impossible to stop others from spreading lies. Already tonight we are the cause of the decline of western civilzation, mad cow disease, and god knows what else.

If anyone is so moved to answer these critics you have referenced, I would suggest something: make an extra effort to appear as calm and rational as possible. People who come off as screaming crazies (in general) are easily dismissed. People who try and foster intelligent debate usually are not.

In my earlier posting that you are referring to, I was discussing the "effect" kittens were trying to achieve. I did not attach a value judgement to that effect. It will be interpreted as positive or negative by the receipient. To some extent, we the senders of that message have no control over the conclusions they might draw.

I will say again. Here in Kitten anyone should be free to say or express whatever they want. If any kitten decides to express their feelings elsewhere, the best method is to be intelligent, clear, and polite. DigificWriter, you have already made it clear you think it is fine we are expressing our opinion. Assuming it is done thoughtfully (outside of Kitten), do you really have a problem with anything we are doing?

BostonWillowFan

[hilarita]

[quote:d2f339a37e][b:d2f339a37e][i:d2f339a37e]Quote:[/i:d2f339a37e][/b:d2f339a37e]

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Oh yeah Autumn, I never knew that less than 50 really angry folks could bring down companies worth tens of millions of dollars, maybe we could get Michael Moore to features us

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[/quote:d2f339a37e]
xita this made me laugh for like 10 entire minutes.

edited to add to digific writer
[quote:d2f339a37e][b:d2f339a37e][i:d2f339a37e]Quote:[/i:d2f339a37e][/b:d2f339a37e]

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I initially came here to offer you a better understanding of the fears of myself and others on the WD board (many of whom got into a shouting match with Ben_Varkentine and hilarita) while trying to keep in mind and attempt to sympathise with your position and opinions as I understand them...

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[/quote:d2f339a37e]
i hope, at any rate, people can stop worrying about the big bad kitten campaign to bring down MEs reign of terror. you have been respectful here and i appreciate it.

also i would like to point out that i dont shout. i dont know how.