Early signs of Willow's lesbianism (S1-3)

[Verdant]

We all remember the "think i'm kinda gay" line for Dopplegangland, but I would argue that ME set the platform for Willow being gay even earlier on (whether they were consciously aware of it or not).

I know I'm a newbie, but I followed the FAQ on this one--I read, I searched, etc. I haven't seen this discussion anywhere else and it's full of possiblility.

Last night I was watching "Surprise" (S2E13) with some friends and I was trying to explain the "Willow turns gay" timeline to the newcomers.

It turns out there was "evidence" right there. When Willow asks Oz out (very forward of her) she admits to Buffy she was checking out his hands. Now who but a lesbian would check out a potential lover's hands? A sure indication.

Now if you carry this logic on I'm sure there are tons of signs in season 1.1 through 4.09 that Willow was "different." All leading us to Tara, of course.

What about Xander? She had a crush on him because he was her best friend all through school, because he was in Buffy's words "like one of the girls."

What do you think?

Besides, I'm in the US suffering through a pointless five weeks of reruns just so we can have May sweeps for the final five.

[Cordy]

Hi!

I'm pretty sure that the "I'm kinda gay" line was just a joke. Joss didn't mean it that way.

However, I was convince during season 2 that Willow had a crush on Miss Calendar.

And in "Prophecy Girl", when Buffy didn't want to go to the dance with him, they said:

Buffy: Xander, you're one of my best friends. You and Willow...

Xander: Well, Willow's not looking to date you. Or if she is, she's
playing it pretty close to the chest.

That made me think ¡Woo Hoo! Willow has a crush on Buffy!! that was subtext!

But, you know, I'm crazy... and I love to look for lesbians at any place.

[TaraMaclay]

First of all. Welcome.

Interesting thoughts. I guess I'll have to look at the DVD's and see if I can spot any more signs for you.

------------------

IM:WillowsBandCamp-TaraMaclay69
Guardian of Vampire Tara
Keeper of Tara's 'Lil Pile 'O Crackers'

--
Look, I realize that every slayer comes with a expiration mark stamped on the package.. But I want mine to be a long time from now.. Like a Cheeto.
---

[Web Warlock]

Cordy, you are not the only one.

I was convinced that Willow had a crush on Jenny. I mean look at her! She is everything that Willow thinks is cool. She is hot, intelligent, works with computers and let's not forget the whole magic thing.

Warlock.

------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
Jesus saves. Allah forgives. Buddha shows the light.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

[Willowhand]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Web Warlock:

I was convinced that Willow had a crush on Jenny.

---

I was, too! I always thought that she had a crush on Buffy too, back in the first season. Also, there was one promo pic back in S3, I think...basically, it had two cheerleaders holding onto Willow's arms, Willow smiling, and Xander giving a confused look in the back.

quote:

[Verdant]

Good call on the Jenny Calendar thing. I was too busy having a crush on her to notice Willow having one.

The mere fact that she mentions going to the Burning Man festival elevated her to goddess status. I was always curious as to which writer had been to Burning Man as well.

------------------
Maybe you should put some ice on it.

[Wiccagrrl]

I agree that Willow had a crush on Jenny. And the "Well, Willow's not looking to date you" and also Xander's comment that Willow's like his guy friend who knows about girls line.

As far as the Kinda Gay line...I think it was mostly done as a joke. But I think it was Joss who made the comment that it was there, kinda like showing a loaded gun in a scene. Ya may never use it, but it's been planted so that if you *do* want to...

I think he also commented that he knew for a long time he'd want to explore one of the gang's sexuality, but didn't have anything concrete planned until after Seth left and Tara was in the picture and things just feel into place. (paraphrasing, but that's the gist of the comments as I remember them)

[supermus]

My bet is that he put stuff like that in for Willow AND Xander, cuz like Wiccagrrl said he knew he wanted one of them to explore their sexuality in college, but he wasn't sure which one. Like, in The Witch Buffy says he's "just one of the girls" and the whole thing with Larry.

[EvilAnya]

I always thought it was interesting how jealous Willow was of Faith when she came into Buffy's life. I always wondered if she didn't have a little crush on Buffy. Maybe it was just because i had such a big crush on Buffy

I really don't think any of it was planned, it was just me relating my own experiences to the show.

[Cordy]

I think they wanted to play with Faith sexuality.

She really has a crush on Buffy. This was in the shooting script...

FAITH (cont'd)
What are you going to do, B?
Kill me - you become me. You're
not ready for that...

Faith surprises Buffy by jerking her head forward - not to head-butt her, but to give her a quick KISS on the lips.

Faith pulls back.

You know, to me, Willow and Buffy are like sisters... I don't believe Willow was jealouse because she wanted Buffy, but because Buffy had a new best friend.

[Wiccagrrl]

I would have pretty much the same issues with B/W that I have with the possibility of B/X or A/C. I just see the relationships as familial. Brotherly/Sisterly (or in B/W case sisterly/sisterly.)Does that mean there was never, ever even for a second a hint of attraction? No, I wouldn't go that far. But I will say I personally don't see these ships as realistic or as anything I'd actually *want* to see pursued. Sadly, with A/C, I am apparently not getting my wish (or maybe they're not *really* gonna go down that road? Hopefully?)

[Lanfear]

First time I thought about it was the "And I think I'm kinda gay" in doppelgangerland about vampwillow, and Angel starting to say something about vamps and who they where beeing similar. But when I heard that I went back to The Wish where we first see VampWillow, and she does act rather sensually towards both sexes, I'd quote, but seems the page I use for shooting scripts is down :\

------------------
Willow: that was so beautiful, and you didnt even stutter once.
Tara: My heart doesnt stutter.

[Under Her Spell]

I think the reason you don't see much discussion of this elsewhere is that, on other boards, the topic has a tendencey to degenerate into arguments about whether Willow is 'really gay'. I've discussed the issue myself in an article, although by 'discussed' I actually mean 'talked for a long time'.

The Big Gay Explanation Article.

That article is really a way of looking at things which makes more sense, but I don't really believe Willow's sexuality was necessairly planned into her character from the start. It was more like, until Tara, she was pretty much sexless - so her being gay made fitted in with that nicely.

Edited to add I really have to stop typing in 'Buggy' rather than 'Buffy' in my links.

[This message has been edited by Under Her Spell (edited March 20, 2002).]

[kyraroc]

VERY interesting article, there, Under Her Spell . . . I think your analysis of the sexuality of vampirism in BtvS is dead on. At many times in the show, it has been rather overtly sexualized - examples that leap to mind include the Willow/Spike "this never happened to me before" scene in The Initiative, and Riley with the skanky vampire ho in whatever episode that was . . . can we really imagine the extremely straight Riley going to a male vampire for that? I can't, so clearly gender matters, and the fact that vampWillow lusts after women's necks, although she hangs out with vampXander in a nonbiting (i.e. nonsexual) relationship is very telling.

I also think you made interesting points that both Willow and Oz seek a certain wild sexuality outside of their relationship, and that they are both rather low-key on the sex thing, which could be indicative of her needing to find true sexual satisfaction elsewhere.

However . . . (and please don't pillory me for this, I think Willow is completely gay and I am *not* trying to argue otherwise, if it matters I'm not straight myself) . . . I think it's not really accurate to claim that Willow had no sexual attraction to Oz or Xander. It's quite obvious to me from watching her reactions to them in several episodes that she was, including her reactions to Oz pre- and post-sex, and her several kisses with Xander. I don't think this makes her any less gay. Plenty of people can find a certain people from the sex they're not generally attracted to sexy on occasion, particularly before they're sure where their ultimate feelings lie, and it doesn't change their sexuality. Heck, Xander was clearly attracted to Jonathan during Superstar, simply because a spell made Jonathan seem so cool, but Xander has (generally) seemed straight. I would definitely agree that Willow's desire for Tara is FAR more sexually charged than her ultimately sexless relationship with Xander or her primarily intellectual relationship with Oz. But I think rewriting history to imply that she was never really attracted in a sexual way at all to Xander or Oz is unfair both to the complexity of the show and the true complexity of human sexual experience. (Ducks, covers, and hopes this is not the kind of statement that gets everybody all pissed off, because it isn't meant that way.)

On another note, many of the lesbians I know are computer geeks who used to hang out with the guys in the A/V room, and several of them had "internet" boyfriends at first a la Willow in "I Robot - You Jane" . . . early signs?

--- KR

[Verdant]

Under her Spell -- I liked your essay. You read the subtext right on and make some great points about her non-sexual relationships with men.

I always watch TV shows with an eye toward "who's the most likely character to be gay if they were going to do turn someone gay?" (e.g. Phoebe on Friends) So I latched on to Willow right away (Season one) with some wishful thinking.

But really I was looking for some humor here. Willow could have been checking out Oz's hands because he plays guitar and bass. To say it's an example of her latent lesbianism is clearly an exaggerated joke.

The conversation that spawned this thread was started last night when I was half drunk and surrounded by horny lesbian Buffy neophytes intent on picking apart the show and bombarding me with continuity questions.

After a point I just had to start making stuff up, I was hoping someone else had experienced the same sillyness.

------------------
Maybe you should put some ice on it.

[Web Warlock]

Under Her Spell: Love your essays! I am going to link this from my Willow page.

Speaking of which, I do go over a lot of this ground on my Willow/Tara pages as well. Not a plug, just a way to save me from writing more. http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/willtara.html

kyraroc: Your points are valid. But here is my guess. Willow would not have been attracted to Oz at all if a.) Xander noticed her and b.) if Jenny had been a bigger influence in her life.

Wont tread onto the Buffy/Faith/Willow ground. Even if it is a pretty picture!

Warlock.

------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
Jesus saves. Allah forgives. Buddha shows the light.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited March 20, 2002).]

[shellybean]

My view on Willow's sexuality is that I don't think for a second that her being gay was planned from the start. I also agree that the whole "I think I'm kinda gay" thing was meant to be a joke, but also maybe to raise a few eyebrows. I think maybe its possible that Willow was attracted to Buffy at some point, but now they're just like sisters. And I totally remember the first time I saw Prophecy Girl and was totally thinking the same thing Cordy! Also that whole thing with Xander and the Buffy bot in The Gift. When he said "I don't think she feels that way about Buffy". It seems like Joss always likes to hint at these things, if anything just for fun. Like with Xander. I'm sure many people questioned his sexuality. There's no doubt that he's attracted to girls but there were things like with Larry and comments like "Can I sleep with Riley too?" that kinda made you go 'hmmm?'.
And I also agree with pretty much the planet about the Faith thing. Its so obvious that Joss was playing up Faith's sexuality. There was SO much subtext between Faith and Buffy that everyone could see it. And I remember reading at the same thing about that kiss at shooting script site, Cordy. But in the show they had her kiss Buffy's forhead instead. I was a HUGE Buffy/Faith shipper, still am as a matter of fact, so it was kind of dissapointing the way it ended.

------------------
Tara: "I understand. You have to be with the person you l-love."
Willow: "I am." – "New Moon Rising"

"But with Tara, I just know she likes Willow, and she already has one of those" – "Family"

"Honey, in case you didn’t hear me the first six-thousand times, no more teleportation spells." – "Crush"

Willow: "I figured, life goes by so fast, if you don’t write stuff down it just gets…lost."
Tara: "Down to every last bagel"
Willow: "Down to every last everything I do with you" – "Forever"

[BBOvenGuy]

Well, CPS Boy, I'm not a moderator, but I do know how to quote from the FAQ

quote:

---

19. Is Willow gay or bi? or Will Willow date boys again?

She's gay. Everyone, writers, actors and the show has said she is gay. Don't ask the question or post a thread about it. The answer to the second question? She's gay, no boys in the future for her, that would mean Oz as well.

---

I think that expresses the views of the mods quite clearly. And lots of non-mods, too. quote:19. Is Willow gay or bi? or Will Willow date boys again?

[Xanadu]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cordy:

But, you know, I'm crazy... and I love to look for lesbians at any place.

---

*sigh* don't we all?

Amyquote:

[Warduke]

FAQ#19…you either accept it or you don't post on this board, it's that simple, NO discussion about it...period!

[Zerattakis]

Here, here. God I hate that arguement.

Zera

------------------
SO: Okay, last question. What advice would you give to someone who gets their brains sucked out?
AB: Um ... eat a lot of apple sauce, preferably fed to you by attractive young lesbians.

[AutumnT]

You know it's funny, Willow has been repeating that she's gay so often this season that the last Television With Out Pity review was actually making fun of it. Along the lines of this just in, Willow is gay. Who knew?

But apparently something that has become an obvious joke to some still can't be said often enough for it to get through some skulls. Guess she'll have to spell it out YET AGAIN next episode... and the next... and the next..

------------------
Autumn

I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.

[Zerattakis]

Well as much as we love her gayness, and the thick skulls that constantly need her to keep saying it, some of those ppl might then see it as a 'doth protest too much' situation..hehe. that would be funny, in my weird, warped, sleep-deprived, away-form-the-girlfriend-too-much-because-she-still-goes-to-school way. Okay, sorry for that last bit. Just a bit of frustration...

Zera

------------------
SO: Okay, last question. What advice would you give to someone who gets their brains sucked out?
AB: Um ... eat a lot of apple sauce, preferably fed to you by attractive young lesbians.

[Web Warlock]

Thanks mods.

FAQ#19, it's not just a good idea, it the law.

I also don't believe that Willow's sexuallity was plan from square one. But as we all know Joss is an evil coniving liar! (I mean that in the best possible way), so this could have been itching in his mind.

I think the was also sub-text tension between Willow and Faith, as others have pointed out. I have made no secret of my love of Faith. But *IF* Willow ever turned to the dark side, Faith had better hide! Willow has been really hurt by Faith and that hurt had to come from something.
Enemies can't hurt you that bad, only friends and lovers.

Now I also don't believe that Willow was attracted to Buffy at all. Well, other than for the obvious reasons, but Buff moved right into that "friend = no touch" area real fast.

I think UHS did a fine job of 'explaining' things in her article.

I still wonder what would have gone on with Willow if Jenny "That's not where I dangle it" Calendar had lived.
In the end, easy with Tara, no question about it. As Sass puts it, Tara should have destiny was here tatooed on her ass. But I bet there would not have been an Oz.

Warlock.

------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
Jesus saves. Allah forgives. Buddha shows the light.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

[girlwiththebraids]

i agree that the seeds were planted for either willow or xander to move in the gay direction from a lot of the early little snippets...and i do think that the FAQ is unquestionable...willow is GAY...and i say this, who identifies as bi and sometimes put the world in one big bisexual continuum box when i'm feeling peckish...willow's gayness went without question even before the writers started throwing it at us... but that being said, i don't think that her feelings for xander or oz were less real...i just think that the willow who knows now that she is gay is not the same willow who knew then that she was attracted to those two men...and as for oz, beyond the intellectual, he was also an emotional balance for willow, because he helped bring into sharp relief that one of willow's "tragic flaws" if you will, is a lack of emotional control, because he was, to all appearances the picture of emotional control...but he had that unpredictable wolfy side... oops...digressing...

summation...willow's gayness was clearly foreshadowed, but they could have let it drop, because her feelings for men were real, for the girl she was at the time...they didn't, and i'm ever so grateful because willow and tara make me happy

braids

------------------
"Is she your sister?"
"She's my everything..."

"Would that mean we have to snuggle?"

"There's nothing we can't face...except for bunnies."

"It's not a gay thing...I mean...she is...gay...but we don't gay..."

[The Rose]

WOW. Great article UHS. Well thought out.
All the nay-sayers should read your article.

------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[Wiccagrrl]

Under Her Spell, I just have to comment on something: You said in your article that

quote:

---

Joss Whedon has always had a tendency to ignore everything he's written in the past, and always start each episode without feeling constrained by continuity.

---

I just wanted to say, frankly, I've always found Buffy to be one of the more consistent shows I've ever watched. I love the continuity. I love that the show isn't afraid, in it's 5th or 6th season to make references to events that happened in Season 1. And overall I think it tends to respect and cater to the long-time viewer and not the potential new viewer. Is it perfect in this regard? Well, no...but then, no show is. And I have to say I think this season in particular has had some weakness in this department, especially regarding characterizations. But then, I don't think Joss is quite as involved this year as he has been in the past. But in general I think Buffy is fairly remarkable in it's continuity and consistency.

Anyway, I watched through six seasons of Xena. You wanna talk lack of continuity?

[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited March 21, 2002).]quote:

[Dr.G]

quote:

---

Originally posted by AutumnT:
You know it's funny, Willow has been repeating that she's gay so often this season that the last Television With Out Pity review was actually making fun of it. Along the lines of this just in, Willow is gay. Who knew?

But apparently something that has become an obvious joke to some still can't be said often enough for it to get through some skulls. Guess she'll have to spell it out YET AGAIN next episode... and the next... and the next..

---

No shit? She is *gay*? But she wanted the boys once! She has been to boystown. How can this be? Surely there has never been a true lesbian who has even looked at boys before? So what if she has said she is gay 2394867123807546314086753 times now, so what if Joss has said so, we all know he is big fat liar. Until Willow presents Oz' head on a platter with an apple in mouth as a birthday present to Tara she is *not* getting her lesbo street cred. Ah uh. No way.
A woman who has been with a man cannot be a lesbian. It's unthinkable. I am utterly shocked that this board devoted to a loving same sex relationship would support such a notion. Am I making sense? If so, you may shoot me.
quote:

[Halcyon]

oh Garfield sweetie...

[wiltar]

Garfield: LOL

I love this discussion... we're seeing reruns right now of s3, and just the other night I was thinking: 'Damn, it kinda looks like Willow was attracted to girls back then!' Like, when Willow made that protection-spell thingie for Buffy, and asked if they'd go out on patrol that night. Faith comes in and says something about that they should get going. Buffy goes out with Faith and Willow sits there looking at that thing, saying "Stupid!" I think that, at that point Willow did have a little crush on Buffy. But that's just imho.

Patricia

------------------
"What are they looking at?"
"The hotness of you, doofus!"