by Robin » Mon Mar 18, 2002 4:35 pm
by greep » Mon Mar 18, 2002 4:46 pm
quote:
Originally posted by DianaBouvier:
...if Anya breaks her pendant then how is any growth done by the scoobs. They won't remember it--it will be as if it never happened....
Exactly. The whole point of this series is the Scoobies growing up. If the consequences of their actions are just magically reset, and they presumably have no memory of them, then they won't have learned a thing.
I can't think of a way of bringing Tara back to life that won't undermine the story-line of the whole series.
I certainly hope I'm wrong though!
quote:by Ed the Spoiler » Mon Mar 18, 2002 4:47 pm
Please point out one thing I've said that has been proven to be wrong, because while I am curious, at least I admit I could be incorrect about a couple of minor things.
Its hard to maintain a conversation when all thats being said is that I'm wrong.
BBOvenGuy did have the cajones to mention a couple of things that he felt were inconsistencies, but, as I pointed out they are trivial, evasive and certainly not definitive.
Given that alot of you feel that what I am saying is speculative, why don't you all come up with some theories that tie all the themes up that fit as good as, or better than what I've mentioned. Personally, I'd love to see what you all can come up with. And who knows, if, like you say, I end up being wrong, maybe you'll be right
Ed
by yaya » Mon Mar 18, 2002 4:48 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Ed The Spoiler:
Guys some unfortunately took advantage of me being unregistered and submitted these spoilers. They are seemingly just a complitation of all the spoilers out there with a few guesses thrown in. There is no breaking of anya's pendlant.Trust no One
im so confused now....did Ed post this??
by The Godfather » Mon Mar 18, 2002 4:51 pm
Tara getting new life is much like soldiers in war who are saved and have to wonder why them. Such an act would certainly advance Tara in maturity because from that moment forth, not only would she be living her life..she'd be doing so also as a tribute to Anya.
As for ME and the concept of eternal love..well the guy who came back from the hell and the only thing that brought back his sanity was his beloved now barely recalls she existed and though the writers call them soulmates..you get my point.
JMO,
Shawn
[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 18, 2002).]
by wiltar » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:12 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Ed the Spoiler:
why don't you all come up with some theories that tie all the themes up that fit as good as, or better than what I've mentioned. Personally, I'd love to see what you all can come up with. And who knows, if, like you say, I end up being wrong, maybe you'll be rightEd
I don't mean to offend you, but someone did. A couple of pages ago, there was someone who posted this link: http://www.voy.com/13746/102173.html
Now, if you take a good look at it: I think someone met the criteria you were asking for...
Patricia
------------------
"What are they looking at?"
"The hotness of you, doofus!"
[This message has been edited by wiltar (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
Yaya Xita answered your question on the previous page.
IP: Logged
halloo asks: Are the Scoobies ever going to find out about Spike? I feel so incredibly horrible for poor William!
Wanda replies: The cat’s outta the bag in the next episode. Buffy tries to bond with Dawn to ease her mind after last week’s massacre attempt, and in the process, spills the beans on Spike (she already sorta did in the last ep). Meanwhile, Anya’s going to be getting her vengeance groove on as she accepts the offer to become a demon again. And I’ll give you one guess who’s going to be her first target ...
chris345 asks: Wanda, Amber Benson was on loveline saying she just filmed a sceen with tara and willow in bed naked. Is it a sex scene or will they just pan to the girls pre or post make out?
Wanda replies: It's pretty damn steamy, from what I hear. Not Spuffy through-the-floor steamy -- but close.
chris345 asks: Wanda please have pity on us buffyfiles, throw us a crumb or two
Wanda replies: Big, bad stuff coming up at the beginning of May for sweeps. Including a ... drumroll please ... BIG BAD, which I'm really looking forward to. We’ll also see how truly EVILLE Warren is, as two of the Scoobies’ lives are put in very grave danger.
cooldave89 asks: when giles will be coming back
Wanda replies: Not any time before episode 20, unfortunately.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
[This message has been edited by AutumnT (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
Thats not offensive at all. In fact, its a pretty cool theory! Anyone else care to dream up something?
Ed
(P.s. You'll know its me posting because I'm such a nice guy)
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Well Wanda has some chat "spoilers" about Buffy. Here they be:
Nothing really new there I guess.
Looks like Wanda's lifted much of that from AnGeL X.
IP: Logged
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
IP: Logged
I’ve printed out Restless script, trying to find foreshadowing, etc. In Willow’s dream she’s in the classroom.
WILLOW: (licks lips) My book report. This summer I, I read "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe."
XANDER: (loudly, to ceiling) Oh, who cares?
(Willow looks hurt. Sound of giggling. Shot of Oz nuzzling Tara's cheek while she giggles.)
WILLOW: This book ha-has many themes...
I was looking for something that said what the themes of TLTW&TW were & I found a site that said, “The themes of sin, redemption, sacrificial death and resurrection … pervade The Chronicles of Narnia, particularly The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.”
This covers a lot of the themes of this series.
Buffy sacrificed herself in S5 & was resurrected in Ep 1
The only two characters that have a LONG history of evil acts are Spike & Anya & neither have shown remorse, & therefore found redemption…as yet. Even though Spike has been helping the Scoobies over the past couple of years, it seems that it’s more because of his feelings for Buffy, & then protective feelings for Dawn, than trying to atone for his past sins. When Dru comes back, he immediately goes out & bites someone at the Bronze. When he thinks his chip has malfunctioned coz he can hit Buffy without being hurt, he attacks a girl in an alley – not exactly the acts of a remorseful creature.
Anya’s past acts have never been dealt with; when they’re mentioned it’s as a joke (“boils on the penis” before she even became demon - Something Blue). It seems that it’s time she should face up to the consequences of her 1000 years as a vengeance demon.
Throughout the last 6 years, the worse aspects of Xander’s life seem to have been his failed relationships (Buffy, Cordy, Willow, Anya), & his isolation when the others were at University. He hasn’t had anywhere near the angst that all the others have. Maybe it’s time for him to ‘care’ about things more – if he was more grown up would he have made the decision to marry Anya & face the future together, for better or worse? (If any of this doesn’t sound right, I’m in the UK & only up to ‘Gone’ so the wedding stuff is all from spoilers I’ve read).
If Tara’s accidentally killed by a random bullet, as seems to be case, then it isn’t a form of sacrifice at all, & I think I remember reading somewhere (don’t know where now) that that’s what the BSD is. So it makes sense that it is ultimately all connected to Xander & Anya.
But I do think however it pans out *says determinedly IT WILL BE A RESET/REVERSAL/WHATEVER* but it needs to be a sort of reset where at least Willow realises what has happened, what she is capable of, if she doesn’t control her emotions. I think everyone is capable of violence, even murder, in defence of someone you love, partner or child. But Vengeance is different than Justice, & I think Willow would need to remember this to grow.
Not sure about the Oz & Tara bit. All I care about is that Tara & Willow are together again, alive at the end of the Series.
Feel free to tell me it’s all rubbish, just let me drink more vodka on the Party bus, & eat chocolate *g*
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by dragonfly:
The question is then, how to do it? How to both show this thing and to somehow invert it, expose it, point at it and laugh? My current pet theory? Keep an eye on those marauding Justice demons and an attentive ear cocked for someone saying, however jokingly, that they wished life was more like TV/movies. Remember the gun? Where are you most likely to see people getting shot? Anyways, it’s more than a bit unlikely, and it doesn’t take many of the surrounding plots into account, but it’s a reset scenario that at least does something more with what’s happening to W/T than erase it, and it would be beautiful to see ME and crew do something that brought a Hollywood cliché to light and mocked it. Maybe I’m reading too much into all this? I hope not. Besides, with all the ‘it’s really a dream, no wait, it’s really an insane delsusion/AU/ spell that makes things look different’ going on, the one thing we’re really lacking is some good, crunchy deconstructionism.
I like your ideas dragonfly. It would be like Joss and Co. to find a way to mock the cliches. After all, BTVS is about the girl who doesn't get killed but does some serious butt-kicking herself.
-Spica
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by Ed the Spoiler:
Given that alot of you feel that what I am saying is speculative, why don't you all come up with some theories that tie all the themes up that fit as good as, or better than what I've mentioned. Personally, I'd love to see what you all can come up with. And who knows, if, like you say, I end up being wrong, maybe you'll be right.
Um, I'm sure the mods will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't really think that's the point of the spoiler thread. We've speculated ourselves to death this season, and especially in the past couple of weeks.
At this point, what we're interested in is facts. We've been handed the nuclear bomb of W/T fandom and we're looking for just about anything in the way of a sign that things can still turn out all right. This is no time to be playing speculation games. This is the time to find out what's really going on. We do that by looking at what people claim to be the truth and examining it to see if those claims hold up.
Besides, if you already know how the season is going to end, why should we do all this speculating? To amuse you? I think not.
One of the reasons we believe AnGeL X is because she's been willing to have her material subjected to independent confirmation. That is to say, I gave her information about a location shoot I was going to, she gave me half of the scene I should have expected to see, and when I came back I gave her the other half. Our accounts matched up, even though neither one of us had all the information at first. There are more location shoots coming up this week, most likely for Episode 21. Care to put your material up to the same test? You can email me if you're interested.
IP: Logged
Speaking of loose plots - it’s really pisses me off that these mysterious monks in season 5 were able to cast such a powerful spell that they created a “human being” (Dawn) and altered people’s memories on a wide scale, and in doing so altered space/time. But we’ve not really seen the “consequences” of that magic, did we?
IP: Logged
Yaya Xita answered your question on the previous page.
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 19:20 Ed, it is beginning to sound like you are trying to convince people, if you are right then time will tell, lets leave it at that, if you have new things to add then please do so. It is up to each and everyone to believe or not believe. Lets all remain polite.Yaya Xita answered your question on the previous page.
IP: LoggedAutumnTSassy Eggs halloo asks: Are the Scoobies ever going to find out about Spike? I feel so incredibly horrible for poor William!
Wanda replies: The cat’s outta the bag in the next episode. Buffy tries to bond with Dawn to ease her mind after last week’s massacre attempt, and in the process, spills the beans on Spike (she already sorta did in the last ep). Meanwhile, Anya’s going to be getting her vengeance groove on as she accepts the offer to become a demon again. And I’ll give you one guess who’s going to be her first target ...
chris345 asks: Wanda, Amber Benson was on loveline saying she just filmed a sceen with tara and willow in bed naked. Is it a sex scene or will they just pan to the girls pre or post make out?
Wanda replies: It's pretty damn steamy, from what I hear. Not Spuffy through-the-floor steamy -- but close.
chris345 asks: Wanda please have pity on us buffyfiles, throw us a crumb or two
Wanda replies: Big, bad stuff coming up at the beginning of May for sweeps. Including a ... drumroll please ... BIG BAD, which I'm really looking forward to. We’ll also see how truly EVILLE Warren is, as two of the Scoobies’ lives are put in very grave danger.
cooldave89 asks: when giles will be coming back
Wanda replies: Not any time before episode 20, unfortunately.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
[This message has been edited by AutumnT (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 19:22 Well Wanda has some chat "spoilers" about Buffy. Apparently she too can read AngelX's spoilers... Here they be:halloo asks: Are the Scoobies ever going to find out about Spike? I feel so incredibly horrible for poor William!
Wanda replies: The cat’s outta the bag in the next episode. Buffy tries to bond with Dawn to ease her mind after last week’s massacre attempt, and in the process, spills the beans on Spike (she already sorta did in the last ep). Meanwhile, Anya’s going to be getting her vengeance groove on as she accepts the offer to become a demon again. And I’ll give you one guess who’s going to be her first target ...
chris345 asks: Wanda, Amber Benson was on loveline saying she just filmed a sceen with tara and willow in bed naked. Is it a sex scene or will they just pan to the girls pre or post make out?
Wanda replies: It's pretty damn steamy, from what I hear. Not Spuffy through-the-floor steamy -- but close.
chris345 asks: Wanda please have pity on us buffyfiles, throw us a crumb or two
Wanda replies: Big, bad stuff coming up at the beginning of May for sweeps. Including a ... drumroll please ... BIG BAD, which I'm really looking forward to. We’ll also see how truly EVILLE Warren is, as two of the Scoobies’ lives are put in very grave danger.
cooldave89 asks: when giles will be coming back
Wanda replies: Not any time before episode 20, unfortunately.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
[This message has been edited by AutumnT (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: LoggedEd the Spoilerunregistered posted March 18, 2002 19:25Thats not offensive at all. In fact, its a pretty cool theory! Anyone else care to dream up something?
Ed
(P.s. You'll know its me posting because I'm such a nice guy)
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 19:25 Wiltar -Thats not offensive at all. In fact, its a pretty cool theory! Anyone else care to dream up something?
Ed
(P.s. You'll know its me posting because I'm such a nice guy)
IP: LoggedThe PartymanDoll's Eye Crystal quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Well Wanda has some chat "spoilers" about Buffy. Here they be:
Nothing really new there I guess.
Looks like Wanda's lifted much of that from AnGeL X.
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 19:26quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Well Wanda has some chat "spoilers" about Buffy. Here they be:
Nothing really new there I guess.
Looks like Wanda's lifted much of that from AnGeL X.
quote:IP: LoggedAutumnTSassy Eggs ------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 19:31 Still, I kind of enjoy the words "pretty damn steamy" - that works for me. Especially since I don't find beating each other up crashing through walls all that steamy.------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
IP: LoggedFeenaBlessed Wannabe I’ve printed out Restless script, trying to find foreshadowing, etc. In Willow’s dream she’s in the classroom.
WILLOW: (licks lips) My book report. This summer I, I read "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe."
XANDER: (loudly, to ceiling) Oh, who cares?
(Willow looks hurt. Sound of giggling. Shot of Oz nuzzling Tara's cheek while she giggles.)
WILLOW: This book ha-has many themes...
I was looking for something that said what the themes of TLTW&TW were & I found a site that said, “The themes of sin, redemption, sacrificial death and resurrection … pervade The Chronicles of Narnia, particularly The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.”
This covers a lot of the themes of this series.
Buffy sacrificed herself in S5 & was resurrected in Ep 1
The only two characters that have a LONG history of evil acts are Spike & Anya & neither have shown remorse, & therefore found redemption…as yet. Even though Spike has been helping the Scoobies over the past couple of years, it seems that it’s more because of his feelings for Buffy, & then protective feelings for Dawn, than trying to atone for his past sins. When Dru comes back, he immediately goes out & bites someone at the Bronze. When he thinks his chip has malfunctioned coz he can hit Buffy without being hurt, he attacks a girl in an alley – not exactly the acts of a remorseful creature.
Anya’s past acts have never been dealt with; when they’re mentioned it’s as a joke (“boils on the penis” before she even became demon - Something Blue). It seems that it’s time she should face up to the consequences of her 1000 years as a vengeance demon.
Throughout the last 6 years, the worse aspects of Xander’s life seem to have been his failed relationships (Buffy, Cordy, Willow, Anya), & his isolation when the others were at University. He hasn’t had anywhere near the angst that all the others have. Maybe it’s time for him to ‘care’ about things more – if he was more grown up would he have made the decision to marry Anya & face the future together, for better or worse? (If any of this doesn’t sound right, I’m in the UK & only up to ‘Gone’ so the wedding stuff is all from spoilers I’ve read).
If Tara’s accidentally killed by a random bullet, as seems to be case, then it isn’t a form of sacrifice at all, & I think I remember reading somewhere (don’t know where now) that that’s what the BSD is. So it makes sense that it is ultimately all connected to Xander & Anya.
But I do think however it pans out *says determinedly IT WILL BE A RESET/REVERSAL/WHATEVER* but it needs to be a sort of reset where at least Willow realises what has happened, what she is capable of, if she doesn’t control her emotions. I think everyone is capable of violence, even murder, in defence of someone you love, partner or child. But Vengeance is different than Justice, & I think Willow would need to remember this to grow.
Not sure about the Oz & Tara bit. All I care about is that Tara & Willow are together again, alive at the end of the Series.
Feel free to tell me it’s all rubbish, just let me drink more vodka on the Party bus, & eat chocolate *g*
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 19:32 I’ve skipped 10 pages (still catching up *g*) coz I wanted to post tonite. But my head’s not completely in gear so just ignore it all if it sounds stupid. I’m not as good as a lot of posters here at finding deep meaning in things :-)I’ve printed out Restless script, trying to find foreshadowing, etc. In Willow’s dream she’s in the classroom.
WILLOW: (licks lips) My book report. This summer I, I read "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe."
XANDER: (loudly, to ceiling) Oh, who cares?
(Willow looks hurt. Sound of giggling. Shot of Oz nuzzling Tara's cheek while she giggles.)
WILLOW: This book ha-has many themes...
I was looking for something that said what the themes of TLTW&TW were & I found a site that said, “The themes of sin, redemption, sacrificial death and resurrection … pervade The Chronicles of Narnia, particularly The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.”
This covers a lot of the themes of this series.
Buffy sacrificed herself in S5 & was resurrected in Ep 1
The only two characters that have a LONG history of evil acts are Spike & Anya & neither have shown remorse, & therefore found redemption…as yet. Even though Spike has been helping the Scoobies over the past couple of years, it seems that it’s more because of his feelings for Buffy, & then protective feelings for Dawn, than trying to atone for his past sins. When Dru comes back, he immediately goes out & bites someone at the Bronze. When he thinks his chip has malfunctioned coz he can hit Buffy without being hurt, he attacks a girl in an alley – not exactly the acts of a remorseful creature.
Anya’s past acts have never been dealt with; when they’re mentioned it’s as a joke (“boils on the penis” before she even became demon - Something Blue). It seems that it’s time she should face up to the consequences of her 1000 years as a vengeance demon.
Throughout the last 6 years, the worse aspects of Xander’s life seem to have been his failed relationships (Buffy, Cordy, Willow, Anya), & his isolation when the others were at University. He hasn’t had anywhere near the angst that all the others have. Maybe it’s time for him to ‘care’ about things more – if he was more grown up would he have made the decision to marry Anya & face the future together, for better or worse? (If any of this doesn’t sound right, I’m in the UK & only up to ‘Gone’ so the wedding stuff is all from spoilers I’ve read).
If Tara’s accidentally killed by a random bullet, as seems to be case, then it isn’t a form of sacrifice at all, & I think I remember reading somewhere (don’t know where now) that that’s what the BSD is. So it makes sense that it is ultimately all connected to Xander & Anya.
But I do think however it pans out *says determinedly IT WILL BE A RESET/REVERSAL/WHATEVER* but it needs to be a sort of reset where at least Willow realises what has happened, what she is capable of, if she doesn’t control her emotions. I think everyone is capable of violence, even murder, in defence of someone you love, partner or child. But Vengeance is different than Justice, & I think Willow would need to remember this to grow.
Not sure about the Oz & Tara bit. All I care about is that Tara & Willow are together again, alive at the end of the Series.
Feel free to tell me it’s all rubbish, just let me drink more vodka on the Party bus, & eat chocolate *g*
quote:
Originally posted by dragonfly:
The question is then, how to do it? How to both show this thing and to somehow invert it, expose it, point at it and laugh? My current pet theory? Keep an eye on those marauding Justice demons and an attentive ear cocked for someone saying, however jokingly, that they wished life was more like TV/movies. Remember the gun? Where are you most likely to see people getting shot? Anyways, it’s more than a bit unlikely, and it doesn’t take many of the surrounding plots into account, but it’s a reset scenario that at least does something more with what’s happening to W/T than erase it, and it would be beautiful to see ME and crew do something that brought a Hollywood cliché to light and mocked it. Maybe I’m reading too much into all this? I hope not. Besides, with all the ‘it’s really a dream, no wait, it’s really an insane delsusion/AU/ spell that makes things look different’ going on, the one thing we’re really lacking is some good, crunchy deconstructionism.
I like your ideas dragonfly. It would be like Joss and Co. to find a way to mock the cliches. After all, BTVS is about the girl who doesn't get killed but does some serious butt-kicking herself.
-Spica
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 19:39quote:
Originally posted by dragonfly:
The question is then, how to do it? How to both show this thing and to somehow invert it, expose it, point at it and laugh? My current pet theory? Keep an eye on those marauding Justice demons and an attentive ear cocked for someone saying, however jokingly, that they wished life was more like TV/movies. Remember the gun? Where are you most likely to see people getting shot? Anyways, it’s more than a bit unlikely, and it doesn’t take many of the surrounding plots into account, but it’s a reset scenario that at least does something more with what’s happening to W/T than erase it, and it would be beautiful to see ME and crew do something that brought a Hollywood cliché to light and mocked it. Maybe I’m reading too much into all this? I hope not. Besides, with all the ‘it’s really a dream, no wait, it’s really an insane delsusion/AU/ spell that makes things look different’ going on, the one thing we’re really lacking is some good, crunchy deconstructionism.
I like your ideas dragonfly. It would be like Joss and Co. to find a way to mock the cliches. After all, BTVS is about the girl who doesn't get killed but does some serious butt-kicking herself.
-Spica
quote:IP: LoggedBBOvenGuyStrong like an Amazon quote:
Originally posted by Ed the Spoiler:
Given that alot of you feel that what I am saying is speculative, why don't you all come up with some theories that tie all the themes up that fit as good as, or better than what I've mentioned. Personally, I'd love to see what you all can come up with. And who knows, if, like you say, I end up being wrong, maybe you'll be right.
Um, I'm sure the mods will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't really think that's the point of the spoiler thread. We've speculated ourselves to death this season, and especially in the past couple of weeks.
At this point, what we're interested in is facts. We've been handed the nuclear bomb of W/T fandom and we're looking for just about anything in the way of a sign that things can still turn out all right. This is no time to be playing speculation games. This is the time to find out what's really going on. We do that by looking at what people claim to be the truth and examining it to see if those claims hold up.
Besides, if you already know how the season is going to end, why should we do all this speculating? To amuse you? I think not.
One of the reasons we believe AnGeL X is because she's been willing to have her material subjected to independent confirmation. That is to say, I gave her information about a location shoot I was going to, she gave me half of the scene I should have expected to see, and when I came back I gave her the other half. Our accounts matched up, even though neither one of us had all the information at first. There are more location shoots coming up this week, most likely for Episode 21. Care to put your material up to the same test? You can email me if you're interested.
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 19:50quote:
Originally posted by Ed the Spoiler:
Given that alot of you feel that what I am saying is speculative, why don't you all come up with some theories that tie all the themes up that fit as good as, or better than what I've mentioned. Personally, I'd love to see what you all can come up with. And who knows, if, like you say, I end up being wrong, maybe you'll be right.
Um, I'm sure the mods will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't really think that's the point of the spoiler thread. We've speculated ourselves to death this season, and especially in the past couple of weeks.
At this point, what we're interested in is facts. We've been handed the nuclear bomb of W/T fandom and we're looking for just about anything in the way of a sign that things can still turn out all right. This is no time to be playing speculation games. This is the time to find out what's really going on. We do that by looking at what people claim to be the truth and examining it to see if those claims hold up.
Besides, if you already know how the season is going to end, why should we do all this speculating? To amuse you? I think not.
One of the reasons we believe AnGeL X is because she's been willing to have her material subjected to independent confirmation. That is to say, I gave her information about a location shoot I was going to, she gave me half of the scene I should have expected to see, and when I came back I gave her the other half. Our accounts matched up, even though neither one of us had all the information at first. There are more location shoots coming up this week, most likely for Episode 21. Care to put your material up to the same test? You can email me if you're interested.
quote:IP: LoggedPopjeCool Monster Fighter Speaking of loose plots - it’s really pisses me off that these mysterious monks in season 5 were able to cast such a powerful spell that they created a “human being” (Dawn) and altered people’s memories on a wide scale, and in doing so altered space/time. But we’ve not really seen the “consequences” of that magic, did we?
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 20:02 WilTar that was me with the link! What I like about the theory outlined there is that it makes Buffy the focus of “grow up”/be adult. The alternate dimension explains a lot of the strangeness that is character behavior and inconsistencies with time. The whole season has seemed “out of sorts” or not really fitting (at least to me) with the lessons that everyone learned about working together (as seen throughout season 5 and at the end of season 4). What I also like about it, is that at least one of the Scoobs (ie our heroine Buffy) remembers everything. You can’t have a “reset” button where everyone forgets the messes. It would discount the entire season. It also has a possible link to the First Slayer and her possible reappearance in upcoming eps. It would also help me grasp the whole “key” concept, of opening the dimensional gates. That was really never much resolved, and somehow Buffy’s blood was able to close the portal (The Gift) and then, presto we’re done.Speaking of loose plots - it’s really pisses me off that these mysterious monks in season 5 were able to cast such a powerful spell that they created a “human being” (Dawn) and altered people’s memories on a wide scale, and in doing so altered space/time. But we’ve not really seen the “consequences” of that magic, did we?
by Dr.G » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:20 pm
Yaya Xita answered your question on the previous page.
by AutumnT » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:22 pm
halloo asks: Are the Scoobies ever going to find out about Spike? I feel so incredibly horrible for poor William!
Wanda replies: The cat’s outta the bag in the next episode. Buffy tries to bond with Dawn to ease her mind after last week’s massacre attempt, and in the process, spills the beans on Spike (she already sorta did in the last ep). Meanwhile, Anya’s going to be getting her vengeance groove on as she accepts the offer to become a demon again. And I’ll give you one guess who’s going to be her first target ...
chris345 asks: Wanda, Amber Benson was on loveline saying she just filmed a sceen with tara and willow in bed naked. Is it a sex scene or will they just pan to the girls pre or post make out?
Wanda replies: It's pretty damn steamy, from what I hear. Not Spuffy through-the-floor steamy -- but close.
chris345 asks: Wanda please have pity on us buffyfiles, throw us a crumb or two
Wanda replies: Big, bad stuff coming up at the beginning of May for sweeps. Including a ... drumroll please ... BIG BAD, which I'm really looking forward to. We’ll also see how truly EVILLE Warren is, as two of the Scoobies’ lives are put in very grave danger.
cooldave89 asks: when giles will be coming back
Wanda replies: Not any time before episode 20, unfortunately.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
[This message has been edited by AutumnT (edited March 18, 2002).]
by Ed the Spoiler » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:25 pm
Thats not offensive at all. In fact, its a pretty cool theory! Anyone else care to dream up something?
Ed
(P.s. You'll know its me posting because I'm such a nice guy)
by The Partyman » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:26 pm
quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Well Wanda has some chat "spoilers" about Buffy. Here they be:
Nothing really new there I guess.
Looks like Wanda's lifted much of that from AnGeL X.
quote:by AutumnT » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:31 pm
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
by Feena » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:32 pm
I’ve printed out Restless script, trying to find foreshadowing, etc. In Willow’s dream she’s in the classroom.
WILLOW: (licks lips) My book report. This summer I, I read "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe."
XANDER: (loudly, to ceiling) Oh, who cares?
(Willow looks hurt. Sound of giggling. Shot of Oz nuzzling Tara's cheek while she giggles.)
WILLOW: This book ha-has many themes...
I was looking for something that said what the themes of TLTW&TW were & I found a site that said, “The themes of sin, redemption, sacrificial death and resurrection … pervade The Chronicles of Narnia, particularly The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.”
This covers a lot of the themes of this series.
Buffy sacrificed herself in S5 & was resurrected in Ep 1
The only two characters that have a LONG history of evil acts are Spike & Anya & neither have shown remorse, & therefore found redemption…as yet. Even though Spike has been helping the Scoobies over the past couple of years, it seems that it’s more because of his feelings for Buffy, & then protective feelings for Dawn, than trying to atone for his past sins. When Dru comes back, he immediately goes out & bites someone at the Bronze. When he thinks his chip has malfunctioned coz he can hit Buffy without being hurt, he attacks a girl in an alley – not exactly the acts of a remorseful creature.
Anya’s past acts have never been dealt with; when they’re mentioned it’s as a joke (“boils on the penis” before she even became demon - Something Blue). It seems that it’s time she should face up to the consequences of her 1000 years as a vengeance demon.
Throughout the last 6 years, the worse aspects of Xander’s life seem to have been his failed relationships (Buffy, Cordy, Willow, Anya), & his isolation when the others were at University. He hasn’t had anywhere near the angst that all the others have. Maybe it’s time for him to ‘care’ about things more – if he was more grown up would he have made the decision to marry Anya & face the future together, for better or worse? (If any of this doesn’t sound right, I’m in the UK & only up to ‘Gone’ so the wedding stuff is all from spoilers I’ve read).
If Tara’s accidentally killed by a random bullet, as seems to be case, then it isn’t a form of sacrifice at all, & I think I remember reading somewhere (don’t know where now) that that’s what the BSD is. So it makes sense that it is ultimately all connected to Xander & Anya.
But I do think however it pans out *says determinedly IT WILL BE A RESET/REVERSAL/WHATEVER* but it needs to be a sort of reset where at least Willow realises what has happened, what she is capable of, if she doesn’t control her emotions. I think everyone is capable of violence, even murder, in defence of someone you love, partner or child. But Vengeance is different than Justice, & I think Willow would need to remember this to grow.
Not sure about the Oz & Tara bit. All I care about is that Tara & Willow are together again, alive at the end of the Series.
Feel free to tell me it’s all rubbish, just let me drink more vodka on the Party bus, & eat chocolate *g*
by spica » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:39 pm
quote:
Originally posted by dragonfly:
The question is then, how to do it? How to both show this thing and to somehow invert it, expose it, point at it and laugh? My current pet theory? Keep an eye on those marauding Justice demons and an attentive ear cocked for someone saying, however jokingly, that they wished life was more like TV/movies. Remember the gun? Where are you most likely to see people getting shot? Anyways, it’s more than a bit unlikely, and it doesn’t take many of the surrounding plots into account, but it’s a reset scenario that at least does something more with what’s happening to W/T than erase it, and it would be beautiful to see ME and crew do something that brought a Hollywood cliché to light and mocked it. Maybe I’m reading too much into all this? I hope not. Besides, with all the ‘it’s really a dream, no wait, it’s really an insane delsusion/AU/ spell that makes things look different’ going on, the one thing we’re really lacking is some good, crunchy deconstructionism.
I like your ideas dragonfly. It would be like Joss and Co. to find a way to mock the cliches. After all, BTVS is about the girl who doesn't get killed but does some serious butt-kicking herself.
-Spica
quote:by BBOvenGuy » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:50 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Ed the Spoiler:
Given that alot of you feel that what I am saying is speculative, why don't you all come up with some theories that tie all the themes up that fit as good as, or better than what I've mentioned. Personally, I'd love to see what you all can come up with. And who knows, if, like you say, I end up being wrong, maybe you'll be right.
Um, I'm sure the mods will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't really think that's the point of the spoiler thread. We've speculated ourselves to death this season, and especially in the past couple of weeks.
At this point, what we're interested in is facts. We've been handed the nuclear bomb of W/T fandom and we're looking for just about anything in the way of a sign that things can still turn out all right. This is no time to be playing speculation games. This is the time to find out what's really going on. We do that by looking at what people claim to be the truth and examining it to see if those claims hold up.
Besides, if you already know how the season is going to end, why should we do all this speculating? To amuse you? I think not.
One of the reasons we believe AnGeL X is because she's been willing to have her material subjected to independent confirmation. That is to say, I gave her information about a location shoot I was going to, she gave me half of the scene I should have expected to see, and when I came back I gave her the other half. Our accounts matched up, even though neither one of us had all the information at first. There are more location shoots coming up this week, most likely for Episode 21. Care to put your material up to the same test? You can email me if you're interested.
quote:by Popje » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:02 pm
Speaking of loose plots - it’s really pisses me off that these mysterious monks in season 5 were able to cast such a powerful spell that they created a “human being” (Dawn) and altered people’s memories on a wide scale, and in doing so altered space/time. But we’ve not really seen the “consequences” of that magic, did we?
by LBJM » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:08 pm
by Ed The Spoiler » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:23 pm
I'm not posting in here to be "amused" at what everyone is feeling (Whether its good or bad). I appologize if thats an impression I've given anyone...
For the record, I don't particularly like several things about this season & where its going (for instance, Im a huge anya fan, and it really kinda makes me sick to think she may be going). I, also, don't feel that the ending of the season is particularly unique - as it does fall into several cliches. But what it also does is fit the pattern. ME has continually taken cliches and put their own twist on them.
I asked people in here to speculate so that we could try to focus away from some of the hate-mongering.
I suppose, though, if this thread is really positioned to iron out facts and not allow us to voice opinions and converse in an open dialog then my job is done here. At least until the next episode airs...
Most of you guys have been pretty cool, and I appreciate the comments and CREATIVE criticism i've received from you all.
Much Love,
Ed
by theatremouse » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:23 pm
quote:
Originally posted by sassyeggs:
Combine this with her still vague details about the extent of her mother's powers, and you have all of the makings for a doozy of a omnipotent Tara.
ooooooh i like this.... tara, immortal maybe? that'd be fun for me.
------------------
It's horrible! That's me as a vampire. I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay.
by Bev » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:25 pm
quote:
1. Thermodynamics. a measure of the amount of energy unavailable for work during a natural process. Symbol: S 2. the measure of the frequency with which an event occurs within a system; measure of probability of distribution in a closed or isolated system; measure of randomness. 3. hypothesized tendency toward uniform intertness esp. of the universe.
Darn, don't remember where I was going with this. But it seems like a possible foreshadowing of things to come...
by BBOvenGuy » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:30 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Ed The Spoiler:
I asked people in here to speculate so that we could try to focus away from some of the hate-mongering.I suppose, though, if this thread is really positioned to iron out facts and not allow us to voice opinions and converse in an open dialog then my job is done here. At least until the next episode airs...
Well, I wasn't trying to chase you away. Hey, I've held management positions in both Engineering and Quality Assurance, so pressing for facts and proof is second nature to me by now.
It's been my observation that open-ended speculating can actually invite hate-mongering, because people in their anger and worry can start saying things like "I wish this character would die instead," or "They should break up that couple instead."
I've never seen things at such a fever pitch as they've been this year, and especially in the past month. I'm not sure we should be fueling the fire with more guessing.
quote:by dusty » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:36 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bev:
O.K. guys, in all of this I've been curious as to what the word "entropy" means. So here's the definition according to the Random House College Dictionary:Darn, don't remember where I was going with this. But it seems like a possible foreshadowing of things to come...
If the dictionary definition didn't make sense, a more general definition of entropy is things tending towards chaos, that is, going from a state of less chaos/randomness to a state of greater chaos/randomness. And it certainly sounds like things are getting a lot more chaotic towards the end of the season...
------------------
it's a romantic comedy of one
and there's a light on in my window
did i leave it on, or have you come home?
either way there is a light on
either way we're turning towards the sun
--nerissa nields, christmas carol
by Corinthian » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:39 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Feena:
I was looking for something that said what the themes of TLTW&TW were & I found a site that said, “The themes of sin, redemption, sacrificial death and resurrection … pervade The Chronicles of Narnia, particularly The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.”This covers a lot of the themes of this series.
Buffy sacrificed herself in S5 & was resurrected in Ep 1.
I've tried for a long time to make sense of that dream reference. This makes a lot of sense. I would also like to hold out hope that some of this could also apply to Tara (ressurection, should the spoilers come to pass and she is accidentally killed).
quote:
All I care about is that Tara & Willow are together again, alive at the end of the Series.
Feel free to tell me it’s all rubbish, just let me drink more vodka on the Party bus, & eat chocolate *g*
It ain't rubbish, not by a long shot. And, since the Party bus has now morphed into the MEGA Love cruise ship (sailing now on the Daily threads), feel free to join me on the Lido deck. I'm whipping up a blender full of marguaritas right now...
[This message has been edited by Corinthian (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
other thing is... about all that 'Ed the spoiler' talking. I think that nick was used by different people...
Can you do something about that, Xita?
I'm thinking a lot about what is going on as you all, and I'm in your arms. Literally.
Big ciao.
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quote:
Originally posted by Bev:
O.K. guys, in all of this I've been curious as to what the word "entropy" means.
Ahhh, Bev. My gf was looking over my shoulder a few nights ago while I was reading the spoiler thread and she got all excited saying, "Why didn't you tell me one of the episodes was called 'Entropy'?" She got out her physics books and went about trying to explain to me exactly what entropy means. Now, keep in mind that I originally double majored in English/Journalism for the sole purpose of staying far, far away from all math and science courses, so her task in explaining this to me was monumental.
All I got out of it were certain broken phrases such as...
"increased entropy cannot be sustained within a given universe"
"energy neither increases or decreases it merely changes hands"
"it's kind of like 'scientific karma' but not quite"
I just looked at her blankly and said, "Sooo...you mean Ben is Glory and Glory is Ben?"
She rolled her eyes. In the end, she seemed to think it could possibly mean that the plot could be reversed. I can't tell you why, which is the reason I didn't post it!
Perhaps a Kitten with a scientific brain could play with this idea? Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all.
I'm so tired. Sigh.
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by Willowlicious:
Perhaps a Kitten with a scientific brain could play with this idea? Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all.I'm so tired. Sigh.
I'm not indulging myself with the bliss of a scientific mind, but I could explain it to you, in about 3 ou 4 pages...
Want me to shorten it or send it via email?
Or are there any other Kittens interested in a short overview of advanced Chaos Theory?
------------------
Tara: No, see, 'cause your insect reflection represents your insignificance... in terms of the karmic cycle.
IP: Logged
...that, in reality physics.
for Joss physics...
there is still hope...
IP: Logged
I kind of figured it was nothing or someone would have said something by now, since we've known that title for weeks.
EDITED FOR TYPOS AND TO ADD: No, I know that entropy cannot be reversed (she repeated that several times), but energy can move around. I think that was what she was talking about. She's not here right now, so I can't clarify. Like I said, I have no idea and I assumed it didn't matter as it hasn't really been brought up before.
EDITED AGAIN TO ADD: My gf is now home and says that it is indeed the, for lack of a better term, "Jurassic Park Definition" Bev listed below that she was using to suppose there could be a reset. Oooo! She's starting to draw me charts and diagrams! God, she's sexy!!
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 18, 2002).]
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quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Well Wanda has some chat "spoilers" about Buffy. Apparently she too can read AngelX's spoilers... Here they be:
Wanda replies: Big, bad stuff coming up at the beginning of May for sweeps. Including a ... drumroll please ... BIG BAD, which I'm really looking forward to. We’ll also see how truly EVILLE Warren is, as two of the Scoobies’ lives are put in very grave danger.
So either Wanda has been reading AngelX and should give her full props ('cause AngelX is a goddess in general and a spoiler queen to boot) or she's pulling stuff out of her butt. Esp. since she first said there was a BSD, hinted it was Tara and then changed tactics to suggest it's Anya. Now it's 2 Scoobies are "put in very grave danger". Arrgh. Wanda it's time to put up or shut up!
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by Morphine:
Or are there any other Kittens interested in a short overview of advanced Chaos Theory?
BINGO! A light bulb has gone in my flu infested brain...
Chaos Theory as explained in Jurassic Park a drop of water placed on the back of your hand, given all circumstances are equal, will rarely, if ever, travel the same path twice.
That would seem to indicate that somewhere along the line there will, indeed, be a reset.
[This message has been edited by Bev (edited March 18, 2002).]
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quote:
Originally posted by Corinthian:
So either Wanda has been reading AngelX and should give her full props ('cause AngelX is a goddess in general and a spoiler queen to boot) or she's pulling stuff out of her butt. Esp. since she first said there was a BSD, hinted it was Tara and then changed tactics to suggest it's Anya. Now it's 2 Scoobies are "put in very grave danger". Arrgh. Wanda it's time to put up or shut up!
Sorry...got tired of staying quiet. Forgive the lack of bringing good news...but at least, no bad news...
Wanda's wording is almost word for word my spoilers and it's not the first time. She takes what she can get and doesn't care who gave it to her. Granted, she was one of the first to hint at the spoilers, but she wasn't alone. I highly doubt she has a clue who the other Scooby is or happens in the episodes other than what's already been spoiled. Her "translations" of my spoilers aren't even really correct.
And not that it's remotely helpful, but I still don't have anything on 21/22. Filming starts soon, hopefully we'll get some *shred* of something. I don't know if I'll get anything on the last two eps, everyone's being *very* sneaky and keeping *very* quiet. I'm still holding onto hope.
-Michelle
[This message has been edited by AnGeL X (edited March 18, 2002).]
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quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Still, I kind of enjoy the words "pretty damn steamy" - that works for me. Especially since I don't find beating each other up crashing through walls all that steamy.
Autumn, you know I can't help it, pretty damn steamy, sounds pretty damn good. I am focusing on the positive today. Yesterday was a pretty bad day on the spoiler thread, so today I worked, smiled and I feel better. BTW, fake ed, I hope you enjoy your banning.
Michelle thanks for the update! The only thing I wonder that Wanda may have is the steam from 19. I don't think the kiss from 18 hinted at steamy, so who know. I know I am hoping she has something there, but yeah the rest is ripped from you.
Ed, don't be discouraged from participation on the board, but again people will question things. We don't want to set ourselves up for a big disappointment if everything stays as is.
But if things turn out ok, man there will be a HUUUUUUUUGE kitten party!
[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by AnGeL X:
Forgive the lack of bringing good news...but at least, no bad news...
No...no bad news is good news. For now. And besides, it leaves plenty of room for us to keep hope alive while you keep on digging for the complete scoop. The thing is, we know you'll be the first one on the scene when the good news we're desperate for finally does reveal itself.
Thanks again, Michelle...
--jr
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------------------
No, please. I mean, tell me if I said something wrong otherwise I know I'll say it again. Probably often and in public.
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by xita:
But if things turn out ok, man there will be a HUUUUUUUUGE kitten party!
Will there be naked people at this party? Because with all the trauma I've experienced from this ordeal, I better damn well get naked people! Sweaty naked people! Lots of 'em! And I think that Aly and Amber should stop by...and they should be naked, too!
That's about the only thing that could make up for this. Yep.
Sigh.
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quote:
Originally posted by Willowlicious:
I better damn well get naked people! Sweaty naked people! Lots of 'em! And I think that Aly and Amber should stop by...and they should be naked, too!That's about the only thing that could make up for this. Yep.
Sigh.
All in favour?
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quote:
Originally posted by Bev:
BINGO! A light bulb has gone in my flu infested brain...Chaos Theory as explained in Jurassic Park a drop of water placed on the back of your hand, given all circumstances are equal, will rarely, if ever, travel the same path twice.
That would seem to indicate that somewhere along the line there will, indeed, be a reset.
[This message has been edited by Bev (edited March 18, 2002).]
you know, I never really liked that so-called "definition" from Jurassic Park, because it doesn't really explain. it's just an example, really.
but as far as what entropy is.... in terms of probability, it is that anything that happens can't be reversed. E.g., when you buy a deck of cards, they are in order. When you shuffle them, they are out of order. If you continue to shuffle them, it is so very unlikely that they will ever return to the original order. So, shuffling is an irreversable action, essentially. in other words, things try to move to a state that is more statistically plausible.
in terms of energy, entropy is often described with examples like the fact that air is evenly distributed in a room. in the room you are sitting in, it is highly unlikely that there are pockets of no air molecules. or another example is that ice, having lower kinetic energy than water, will melt in a glass water because the kinetic energy will try to "even" itself out. when ice is first introduced to water, it is like of pocket of low kinetic energy. in order for the system (the glass containing the ice and water) to find an equilibrium, the water will cool and the ice will heat up until all molecules have the same kinetic energy.
hope that kinda explains what entropy is. sorry it was a long post.
-Spica
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Just wondering cos it's different to what I remembered the ending to be- although some of your spoilers do sound familiar somehow.
Would appreciate your input!
Cheers, Al
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by The Rose:
Excuse me if this is in the wrong place, but how are Buffy's ratings doing? I have read the ratings have dropped some. If this is true, when did they start dropping?
I have looked into this a bit and it seems that the more depressing the episode the worse the ratings. Episodes like Normal Again, DoubleMeat Palace, and As You Were; while being fairly good episodes IMO received lower ratings then episodes that were lighter like Tabula Risa, Gone, and Hells Bells. I think that many fans watch Buffy for the escape from their dreary depressing existence, the last thing they want to see is more depression and monotony. Though Dead Things, Wreaked, and Smashed did quite well ratings wise, particularly in the core demographics and they were pretty dark episodes.
I wouldn’t look too much into the ratings drop, I have compared their ratings with Enterprise the other big genre show on UPN and they have both received an extremely similar mid season drop. They have already guaranteed another season for the show so it really doesn’t matter.
[This message has been edited by Caesar (edited March 18, 2002).]
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don't know what this has to do with spoilers, but I thought I'd ask :-)
-Spica
[This message has been edited by spica (edited March 18, 2002).]
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other thing is... about all that 'Ed the spoiler' talking. I think that nick was used by different people...
Can you do something about that, Xita?
I'm thinking a lot about what is going on as you all, and I'm in your arms. Literally.
Big ciao.
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 20:45 Hmmm.... hey.other thing is... about all that 'Ed the spoiler' talking. I think that nick was used by different people...
Can you do something about that, Xita?
I'm thinking a lot about what is going on as you all, and I'm in your arms. Literally.
Big ciao.
IP: LoggedWillowliciousWillowhand quote:
Originally posted by Bev:
O.K. guys, in all of this I've been curious as to what the word "entropy" means.
Ahhh, Bev. My gf was looking over my shoulder a few nights ago while I was reading the spoiler thread and she got all excited saying, "Why didn't you tell me one of the episodes was called 'Entropy'?" She got out her physics books and went about trying to explain to me exactly what entropy means. Now, keep in mind that I originally double majored in English/Journalism for the sole purpose of staying far, far away from all math and science courses, so her task in explaining this to me was monumental.
All I got out of it were certain broken phrases such as...
"increased entropy cannot be sustained within a given universe"
"energy neither increases or decreases it merely changes hands"
"it's kind of like 'scientific karma' but not quite"
I just looked at her blankly and said, "Sooo...you mean Ben is Glory and Glory is Ben?"
She rolled her eyes. In the end, she seemed to think it could possibly mean that the plot could be reversed. I can't tell you why, which is the reason I didn't post it!
Perhaps a Kitten with a scientific brain could play with this idea? Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all.
I'm so tired. Sigh.
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 20:46quote:
Originally posted by Bev:
O.K. guys, in all of this I've been curious as to what the word "entropy" means.
Ahhh, Bev. My gf was looking over my shoulder a few nights ago while I was reading the spoiler thread and she got all excited saying, "Why didn't you tell me one of the episodes was called 'Entropy'?" She got out her physics books and went about trying to explain to me exactly what entropy means. Now, keep in mind that I originally double majored in English/Journalism for the sole purpose of staying far, far away from all math and science courses, so her task in explaining this to me was monumental.
All I got out of it were certain broken phrases such as...
"increased entropy cannot be sustained within a given universe"
"energy neither increases or decreases it merely changes hands"
"it's kind of like 'scientific karma' but not quite"
I just looked at her blankly and said, "Sooo...you mean Ben is Glory and Glory is Ben?"
She rolled her eyes. In the end, she seemed to think it could possibly mean that the plot could be reversed. I can't tell you why, which is the reason I didn't post it!
Perhaps a Kitten with a scientific brain could play with this idea? Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all.
I'm so tired. Sigh.
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 18, 2002).]
quote:IP: LoggedMorphineFloating Rose quote:
Originally posted by Willowlicious:
Perhaps a Kitten with a scientific brain could play with this idea? Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all.I'm so tired. Sigh.
I'm not indulging myself with the bliss of a scientific mind, but I could explain it to you, in about 3 ou 4 pages...
Want me to shorten it or send it via email?
Or are there any other Kittens interested in a short overview of advanced Chaos Theory?
------------------
Tara: No, see, 'cause your insect reflection represents your insignificance... in terms of the karmic cycle.
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 20:52quote:
Originally posted by Willowlicious:
Perhaps a Kitten with a scientific brain could play with this idea? Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all.I'm so tired. Sigh.
I'm not indulging myself with the bliss of a scientific mind, but I could explain it to you, in about 3 ou 4 pages...
Want me to shorten it or send it via email?
Or are there any other Kittens interested in a short overview of advanced Chaos Theory?
------------------
Tara: No, see, 'cause your insect reflection represents your insignificance... in terms of the karmic cycle.
...that, in reality physics.
for Joss physics...
there is still hope...
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 20:56 ...entropy can't be reversed, it is the state of the matter in the universe: it seems things tend to go wild......that, in reality physics.
for Joss physics...
there is still hope...
I kind of figured it was nothing or someone would have said something by now, since we've known that title for weeks.
EDITED FOR TYPOS AND TO ADD: No, I know that entropy cannot be reversed (she repeated that several times), but energy can move around. I think that was what she was talking about. She's not here right now, so I can't clarify. Like I said, I have no idea and I assumed it didn't matter as it hasn't really been brought up before.
EDITED AGAIN TO ADD: My gf is now home and says that it is indeed the, for lack of a better term, "Jurassic Park Definition" Bev listed below that she was using to suppose there could be a reset. Oooo! She's starting to draw me charts and diagrams! God, she's sexy!!
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 20:57 Thanks, but my gf seems to know the theory well! (She's so very Willow-ish!) She doesn't know BtVS that well though. Try applying 'entropy' to the spoilers we have.I kind of figured it was nothing or someone would have said something by now, since we've known that title for weeks.
EDITED FOR TYPOS AND TO ADD: No, I know that entropy cannot be reversed (she repeated that several times), but energy can move around. I think that was what she was talking about. She's not here right now, so I can't clarify. Like I said, I have no idea and I assumed it didn't matter as it hasn't really been brought up before.
EDITED AGAIN TO ADD: My gf is now home and says that it is indeed the, for lack of a better term, "Jurassic Park Definition" Bev listed below that she was using to suppose there could be a reset. Oooo! She's starting to draw me charts and diagrams! God, she's sexy!!
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: LoggedCorinthianDoll's Eye Crystal quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Well Wanda has some chat "spoilers" about Buffy. Apparently she too can read AngelX's spoilers... Here they be:
Wanda replies: Big, bad stuff coming up at the beginning of May for sweeps. Including a ... drumroll please ... BIG BAD, which I'm really looking forward to. We’ll also see how truly EVILLE Warren is, as two of the Scoobies’ lives are put in very grave danger.
So either Wanda has been reading AngelX and should give her full props ('cause AngelX is a goddess in general and a spoiler queen to boot) or she's pulling stuff out of her butt. Esp. since she first said there was a BSD, hinted it was Tara and then changed tactics to suggest it's Anya. Now it's 2 Scoobies are "put in very grave danger". Arrgh. Wanda it's time to put up or shut up!
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 21:00quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Well Wanda has some chat "spoilers" about Buffy. Apparently she too can read AngelX's spoilers... Here they be:
Wanda replies: Big, bad stuff coming up at the beginning of May for sweeps. Including a ... drumroll please ... BIG BAD, which I'm really looking forward to. We’ll also see how truly EVILLE Warren is, as two of the Scoobies’ lives are put in very grave danger.
So either Wanda has been reading AngelX and should give her full props ('cause AngelX is a goddess in general and a spoiler queen to boot) or she's pulling stuff out of her butt. Esp. since she first said there was a BSD, hinted it was Tara and then changed tactics to suggest it's Anya. Now it's 2 Scoobies are "put in very grave danger". Arrgh. Wanda it's time to put up or shut up!
quote:IP: LoggedBevBlessed Wannabe quote:
Originally posted by Morphine:
Or are there any other Kittens interested in a short overview of advanced Chaos Theory?
BINGO! A light bulb has gone in my flu infested brain...
Chaos Theory as explained in Jurassic Park a drop of water placed on the back of your hand, given all circumstances are equal, will rarely, if ever, travel the same path twice.
That would seem to indicate that somewhere along the line there will, indeed, be a reset.
[This message has been edited by Bev (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 21:29quote:
Originally posted by Morphine:
Or are there any other Kittens interested in a short overview of advanced Chaos Theory?
BINGO! A light bulb has gone in my flu infested brain...
Chaos Theory as explained in Jurassic Park a drop of water placed on the back of your hand, given all circumstances are equal, will rarely, if ever, travel the same path twice.
That would seem to indicate that somewhere along the line there will, indeed, be a reset.
[This message has been edited by Bev (edited March 18, 2002).]
quote:IP: LoggedAnGeL XBlessed Wannabe quote:
Originally posted by Corinthian:
So either Wanda has been reading AngelX and should give her full props ('cause AngelX is a goddess in general and a spoiler queen to boot) or she's pulling stuff out of her butt. Esp. since she first said there was a BSD, hinted it was Tara and then changed tactics to suggest it's Anya. Now it's 2 Scoobies are "put in very grave danger". Arrgh. Wanda it's time to put up or shut up!
Sorry...got tired of staying quiet. Forgive the lack of bringing good news...but at least, no bad news...
Wanda's wording is almost word for word my spoilers and it's not the first time. She takes what she can get and doesn't care who gave it to her. Granted, she was one of the first to hint at the spoilers, but she wasn't alone. I highly doubt she has a clue who the other Scooby is or happens in the episodes other than what's already been spoiled. Her "translations" of my spoilers aren't even really correct.
And not that it's remotely helpful, but I still don't have anything on 21/22. Filming starts soon, hopefully we'll get some *shred* of something. I don't know if I'll get anything on the last two eps, everyone's being *very* sneaky and keeping *very* quiet. I'm still holding onto hope.
-Michelle
[This message has been edited by AnGeL X (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 21:40quote:
Originally posted by Corinthian:
So either Wanda has been reading AngelX and should give her full props ('cause AngelX is a goddess in general and a spoiler queen to boot) or she's pulling stuff out of her butt. Esp. since she first said there was a BSD, hinted it was Tara and then changed tactics to suggest it's Anya. Now it's 2 Scoobies are "put in very grave danger". Arrgh. Wanda it's time to put up or shut up!
Sorry...got tired of staying quiet. Forgive the lack of bringing good news...but at least, no bad news...
Wanda's wording is almost word for word my spoilers and it's not the first time. She takes what she can get and doesn't care who gave it to her. Granted, she was one of the first to hint at the spoilers, but she wasn't alone. I highly doubt she has a clue who the other Scooby is or happens in the episodes other than what's already been spoiled. Her "translations" of my spoilers aren't even really correct.
And not that it's remotely helpful, but I still don't have anything on 21/22. Filming starts soon, hopefully we'll get some *shred* of something. I don't know if I'll get anything on the last two eps, everyone's being *very* sneaky and keeping *very* quiet. I'm still holding onto hope.
-Michelle
[This message has been edited by AnGeL X (edited March 18, 2002).]
quote:IP: LoggedxitaMs. Moderator quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Still, I kind of enjoy the words "pretty damn steamy" - that works for me. Especially since I don't find beating each other up crashing through walls all that steamy.
Autumn, you know I can't help it, pretty damn steamy, sounds pretty damn good. I am focusing on the positive today. Yesterday was a pretty bad day on the spoiler thread, so today I worked, smiled and I feel better. BTW, fake ed, I hope you enjoy your banning.
Michelle thanks for the update! The only thing I wonder that Wanda may have is the steam from 19. I don't think the kiss from 18 hinted at steamy, so who know. I know I am hoping she has something there, but yeah the rest is ripped from you.
Ed, don't be discouraged from participation on the board, but again people will question things. We don't want to set ourselves up for a big disappointment if everything stays as is.
But if things turn out ok, man there will be a HUUUUUUUUGE kitten party!
[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 21:45quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Still, I kind of enjoy the words "pretty damn steamy" - that works for me. Especially since I don't find beating each other up crashing through walls all that steamy.
Autumn, you know I can't help it, pretty damn steamy, sounds pretty damn good. I am focusing on the positive today. Yesterday was a pretty bad day on the spoiler thread, so today I worked, smiled and I feel better. BTW, fake ed, I hope you enjoy your banning.
Michelle thanks for the update! The only thing I wonder that Wanda may have is the steam from 19. I don't think the kiss from 18 hinted at steamy, so who know. I know I am hoping she has something there, but yeah the rest is ripped from you.
Ed, don't be discouraged from participation on the board, but again people will question things. We don't want to set ourselves up for a big disappointment if everything stays as is.
But if things turn out ok, man there will be a HUUUUUUUUGE kitten party!
[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 18, 2002).]
quote:IP: LoggedThe Big I-TBlessed Wannabe quote:
Originally posted by AnGeL X:
Forgive the lack of bringing good news...but at least, no bad news...
No...no bad news is good news. For now. And besides, it leaves plenty of room for us to keep hope alive while you keep on digging for the complete scoop. The thing is, we know you'll be the first one on the scene when the good news we're desperate for finally does reveal itself.
Thanks again, Michelle...
--jr
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 22:01quote:
Originally posted by AnGeL X:
Forgive the lack of bringing good news...but at least, no bad news...
No...no bad news is good news. For now. And besides, it leaves plenty of room for us to keep hope alive while you keep on digging for the complete scoop. The thing is, we know you'll be the first one on the scene when the good news we're desperate for finally does reveal itself.
Thanks again, Michelle...
--jr
quote:IP: LoggedRallyCool Monster Fighter ------------------
No, please. I mean, tell me if I said something wrong otherwise I know I'll say it again. Probably often and in public.
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 22:06 Thanks for your vigilance, as always Michelle.------------------
No, please. I mean, tell me if I said something wrong otherwise I know I'll say it again. Probably often and in public.
quote:
Originally posted by xita:
But if things turn out ok, man there will be a HUUUUUUUUGE kitten party!
Will there be naked people at this party? Because with all the trauma I've experienced from this ordeal, I better damn well get naked people! Sweaty naked people! Lots of 'em! And I think that Aly and Amber should stop by...and they should be naked, too!
That's about the only thing that could make up for this. Yep.
Sigh.
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 22:08quote:
Originally posted by xita:
But if things turn out ok, man there will be a HUUUUUUUUGE kitten party!
Will there be naked people at this party? Because with all the trauma I've experienced from this ordeal, I better damn well get naked people! Sweaty naked people! Lots of 'em! And I think that Aly and Amber should stop by...and they should be naked, too!
That's about the only thing that could make up for this. Yep.
Sigh.
quote:IP: LoggedCorinthianDoll's Eye Crystal quote:
Originally posted by Willowlicious:
I better damn well get naked people! Sweaty naked people! Lots of 'em! And I think that Aly and Amber should stop by...and they should be naked, too!That's about the only thing that could make up for this. Yep.
Sigh.
All in favour?
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 22:12quote:
Originally posted by Willowlicious:
I better damn well get naked people! Sweaty naked people! Lots of 'em! And I think that Aly and Amber should stop by...and they should be naked, too!That's about the only thing that could make up for this. Yep.
Sigh.
All in favour?
quote:IP: LoggedspicaBlessed Wannabe quote:
Originally posted by Bev:
BINGO! A light bulb has gone in my flu infested brain...Chaos Theory as explained in Jurassic Park a drop of water placed on the back of your hand, given all circumstances are equal, will rarely, if ever, travel the same path twice.
That would seem to indicate that somewhere along the line there will, indeed, be a reset.
[This message has been edited by Bev (edited March 18, 2002).]
you know, I never really liked that so-called "definition" from Jurassic Park, because it doesn't really explain. it's just an example, really.
but as far as what entropy is.... in terms of probability, it is that anything that happens can't be reversed. E.g., when you buy a deck of cards, they are in order. When you shuffle them, they are out of order. If you continue to shuffle them, it is so very unlikely that they will ever return to the original order. So, shuffling is an irreversable action, essentially. in other words, things try to move to a state that is more statistically plausible.
in terms of energy, entropy is often described with examples like the fact that air is evenly distributed in a room. in the room you are sitting in, it is highly unlikely that there are pockets of no air molecules. or another example is that ice, having lower kinetic energy than water, will melt in a glass water because the kinetic energy will try to "even" itself out. when ice is first introduced to water, it is like of pocket of low kinetic energy. in order for the system (the glass containing the ice and water) to find an equilibrium, the water will cool and the ice will heat up until all molecules have the same kinetic energy.
hope that kinda explains what entropy is. sorry it was a long post.
-Spica
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 22:14quote:
Originally posted by Bev:
BINGO! A light bulb has gone in my flu infested brain...Chaos Theory as explained in Jurassic Park a drop of water placed on the back of your hand, given all circumstances are equal, will rarely, if ever, travel the same path twice.
That would seem to indicate that somewhere along the line there will, indeed, be a reset.
[This message has been edited by Bev (edited March 18, 2002).]
you know, I never really liked that so-called "definition" from Jurassic Park, because it doesn't really explain. it's just an example, really.
but as far as what entropy is.... in terms of probability, it is that anything that happens can't be reversed. E.g., when you buy a deck of cards, they are in order. When you shuffle them, they are out of order. If you continue to shuffle them, it is so very unlikely that they will ever return to the original order. So, shuffling is an irreversable action, essentially. in other words, things try to move to a state that is more statistically plausible.
in terms of energy, entropy is often described with examples like the fact that air is evenly distributed in a room. in the room you are sitting in, it is highly unlikely that there are pockets of no air molecules. or another example is that ice, having lower kinetic energy than water, will melt in a glass water because the kinetic energy will try to "even" itself out. when ice is first introduced to water, it is like of pocket of low kinetic energy. in order for the system (the glass containing the ice and water) to find an equilibrium, the water will cool and the ice will heat up until all molecules have the same kinetic energy.
hope that kinda explains what entropy is. sorry it was a long post.
-Spica
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 22:16 Excuse me if this is in the wrong place, but how are Buffy's ratings doing? I have read the ratings have dropped some. If this is true, when did they start dropping?IP: LoggedAliSGBlessed Wannabe Just wondering cos it's different to what I remembered the ending to be- although some of your spoilers do sound familiar somehow.
Would appreciate your input!
Cheers, Al
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 22:27 Ed- I was wondering where you got your spoilers from cos on a website that I found about a year ago- it had the whole season outline on it (unfortunately it had dissapeared the next day when I went back to go and print it out)- and everything on it so far has turned out to be true. What I remember as the season finale was Willow was having a complete blowout with her magic and somebody had to volunteer to take on the overload of her magic to stop complete chaos and destruction- and instead of Buffy doing it Spike volunteers- and whilst taking on the overload of her magic dissapears- and that's when Buffy realises she loves him. Thus setting up for another season cliffhanger and possible storylines for season 7.Just wondering cos it's different to what I remembered the ending to be- although some of your spoilers do sound familiar somehow.
Would appreciate your input!
Cheers, Al
IP: LoggedCaesarBlessed Wannabe quote:
Originally posted by The Rose:
Excuse me if this is in the wrong place, but how are Buffy's ratings doing? I have read the ratings have dropped some. If this is true, when did they start dropping?
I have looked into this a bit and it seems that the more depressing the episode the worse the ratings. Episodes like Normal Again, DoubleMeat Palace, and As You Were; while being fairly good episodes IMO received lower ratings then episodes that were lighter like Tabula Risa, Gone, and Hells Bells. I think that many fans watch Buffy for the escape from their dreary depressing existence, the last thing they want to see is more depression and monotony. Though Dead Things, Wreaked, and Smashed did quite well ratings wise, particularly in the core demographics and they were pretty dark episodes.
I wouldn’t look too much into the ratings drop, I have compared their ratings with Enterprise the other big genre show on UPN and they have both received an extremely similar mid season drop. They have already guaranteed another season for the show so it really doesn’t matter.
[This message has been edited by Caesar (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 22:57quote:
Originally posted by The Rose:
Excuse me if this is in the wrong place, but how are Buffy's ratings doing? I have read the ratings have dropped some. If this is true, when did they start dropping?
I have looked into this a bit and it seems that the more depressing the episode the worse the ratings. Episodes like Normal Again, DoubleMeat Palace, and As You Were; while being fairly good episodes IMO received lower ratings then episodes that were lighter like Tabula Risa, Gone, and Hells Bells. I think that many fans watch Buffy for the escape from their dreary depressing existence, the last thing they want to see is more depression and monotony. Though Dead Things, Wreaked, and Smashed did quite well ratings wise, particularly in the core demographics and they were pretty dark episodes.
I wouldn’t look too much into the ratings drop, I have compared their ratings with Enterprise the other big genre show on UPN and they have both received an extremely similar mid season drop. They have already guaranteed another season for the show so it really doesn’t matter.
[This message has been edited by Caesar (edited March 18, 2002).]
quote:IP: LoggedspicaBlessed Wannabe don't know what this has to do with spoilers, but I thought I'd ask :-)
-Spica
[This message has been edited by spica (edited March 18, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 18, 2002 23:02 so have the ratings dropped since the move to UPN? in my area, you can't UPN unless you have cable.don't know what this has to do with spoilers, but I thought I'd ask :-)
-Spica
[This message has been edited by spica (edited March 18, 2002).]
by ra_da_el » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:45 pm
other thing is... about all that 'Ed the spoiler' talking. I think that nick was used by different people...
Can you do something about that, Xita?
I'm thinking a lot about what is going on as you all, and I'm in your arms. Literally.
Big ciao.
by Willowlicious » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:46 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bev:
O.K. guys, in all of this I've been curious as to what the word "entropy" means.
Ahhh, Bev. My gf was looking over my shoulder a few nights ago while I was reading the spoiler thread and she got all excited saying, "Why didn't you tell me one of the episodes was called 'Entropy'?" She got out her physics books and went about trying to explain to me exactly what entropy means. Now, keep in mind that I originally double majored in English/Journalism for the sole purpose of staying far, far away from all math and science courses, so her task in explaining this to me was monumental.
All I got out of it were certain broken phrases such as...
"increased entropy cannot be sustained within a given universe"
"energy neither increases or decreases it merely changes hands"
"it's kind of like 'scientific karma' but not quite"
I just looked at her blankly and said, "Sooo...you mean Ben is Glory and Glory is Ben?"
She rolled her eyes. In the end, she seemed to think it could possibly mean that the plot could be reversed. I can't tell you why, which is the reason I didn't post it!
Perhaps a Kitten with a scientific brain could play with this idea? Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all.
I'm so tired. Sigh.
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 18, 2002).]
quote:by Morphine » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:52 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Willowlicious:
Perhaps a Kitten with a scientific brain could play with this idea? Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all.I'm so tired. Sigh.
I'm not indulging myself with the bliss of a scientific mind, but I could explain it to you, in about 3 ou 4 pages...
Want me to shorten it or send it via email?
Or are there any other Kittens interested in a short overview of advanced Chaos Theory?
------------------
Tara: No, see, 'cause your insect reflection represents your insignificance... in terms of the karmic cycle.
by ra_da_el » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:56 pm
...that, in reality physics.
for Joss physics...
there is still hope...
by Willowlicious » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:57 pm
I kind of figured it was nothing or someone would have said something by now, since we've known that title for weeks.
EDITED FOR TYPOS AND TO ADD: No, I know that entropy cannot be reversed (she repeated that several times), but energy can move around. I think that was what she was talking about. She's not here right now, so I can't clarify. Like I said, I have no idea and I assumed it didn't matter as it hasn't really been brought up before.
EDITED AGAIN TO ADD: My gf is now home and says that it is indeed the, for lack of a better term, "Jurassic Park Definition" Bev listed below that she was using to suppose there could be a reset. Oooo! She's starting to draw me charts and diagrams! God, she's sexy!!
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 18, 2002).]
by Corinthian » Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Well Wanda has some chat "spoilers" about Buffy. Apparently she too can read AngelX's spoilers... Here they be:
Wanda replies: Big, bad stuff coming up at the beginning of May for sweeps. Including a ... drumroll please ... BIG BAD, which I'm really looking forward to. We’ll also see how truly EVILLE Warren is, as two of the Scoobies’ lives are put in very grave danger.
So either Wanda has been reading AngelX and should give her full props ('cause AngelX is a goddess in general and a spoiler queen to boot) or she's pulling stuff out of her butt. Esp. since she first said there was a BSD, hinted it was Tara and then changed tactics to suggest it's Anya. Now it's 2 Scoobies are "put in very grave danger". Arrgh. Wanda it's time to put up or shut up!
quote:by Bev » Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:29 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Morphine:
Or are there any other Kittens interested in a short overview of advanced Chaos Theory?
BINGO! A light bulb has gone in my flu infested brain...
Chaos Theory as explained in Jurassic Park a drop of water placed on the back of your hand, given all circumstances are equal, will rarely, if ever, travel the same path twice.
That would seem to indicate that somewhere along the line there will, indeed, be a reset.
[This message has been edited by Bev (edited March 18, 2002).]
quote:by AnGeL X » Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:40 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Corinthian:
So either Wanda has been reading AngelX and should give her full props ('cause AngelX is a goddess in general and a spoiler queen to boot) or she's pulling stuff out of her butt. Esp. since she first said there was a BSD, hinted it was Tara and then changed tactics to suggest it's Anya. Now it's 2 Scoobies are "put in very grave danger". Arrgh. Wanda it's time to put up or shut up!
Sorry...got tired of staying quiet. Forgive the lack of bringing good news...but at least, no bad news...
Wanda's wording is almost word for word my spoilers and it's not the first time. She takes what she can get and doesn't care who gave it to her. Granted, she was one of the first to hint at the spoilers, but she wasn't alone. I highly doubt she has a clue who the other Scooby is or happens in the episodes other than what's already been spoiled. Her "translations" of my spoilers aren't even really correct.
And not that it's remotely helpful, but I still don't have anything on 21/22. Filming starts soon, hopefully we'll get some *shred* of something. I don't know if I'll get anything on the last two eps, everyone's being *very* sneaky and keeping *very* quiet. I'm still holding onto hope.
-Michelle
[This message has been edited by AnGeL X (edited March 18, 2002).]
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