Honestly the whole soul issue is a bothersome thing. I'd prefer BUFFY return to it's way of old as opposed to digging even deeper into refuting it's previous mythology. I just don't think they can win that way..
-Shawn
by The Godfather » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:15 pm
Honestly the whole soul issue is a bothersome thing. I'd prefer BUFFY return to it's way of old as opposed to digging even deeper into refuting it's previous mythology. I just don't think they can win that way..
-Shawn
by Scout » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:16 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Web Warlock:
Where I am sitting, if Willow goes after Warren and kills him in the most horrible way possible, then I'll fine with that. No need to redeem.I would be upset if Willow DIDN'T go after Warren. He murdered her love.
It’s not Willow’s place to punish Warren - that’s why we have a justice system. If people took justice into their own hands it would lead to anarchy with innocents dying left and right. Not to mention that such an act will violate and pervert all that Willow represents in the Buffyverse.
In my book, Willow is as much a hero as Buffy and if it’s wrong for Buffy to kill a human, it’s just as wrong for Willow to do so. I could never revel in seeing one of the kindest and sweetest characters on the show turned into a cruel, cold-blooded killer.
Killing Warren will not bring Tara back – it will only destroy Willow. And it’s the very last thing Tara would ever want Willow to do.
by The Godfather » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:17 pm
Ari: You know why that scene in HB didn't work for me? Because all of the chicks in green had suddenly and abruptly disappeared. It seemed contrived to me.
So I say as I was dripping tears..ok I'm a sap..*shush*
-Shawn
[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]
by Ari » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:17 pm
In Joss logic, doesn't that pretty much seal their doom?
Oh, and watching Hell's Bells again, I was struck by the finality of Anya's solitary walk down the isle. No matter what happens, I don't think I can see X/A recovering from this. Not after the way they played that scene. It was just haunting.
Also, I think it was important how they had Tara be the one who stuck with Anya the whole day and listened to her vows and all that. I've been thinking about foreshadowing and I imagine that if/when Anya grants a wish and then starts realizing what happened to Tara because of it, her first instinct is going to be to run away. There have been a few notable mentions, including the X/A duet about her fondness for running away. Of all the Scoobies, aside from Xander, Tara is the one Anya was closest too.
Ari
by Can'tThinkOfAGoodName! » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:20 pm
by BBOvenGuy » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:21 pm
quote:
Originally posted by The Godfather:
isn't Rack in the ep? Isn't it possible that Wills get a bit of a push?
Supposedly Warren goes to Rack for help against Willow, and Rack refuses because Willow's too powerful. That's Rack's involvement.
I have things to say on the subject of Willow and redemption, but the thread is moving a little too fast for me to get them down at the moment. I'll jump in when I can.
quote:by xita » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:24 pm
That being said, I get the implication from Angel X that Willow doesn't stop at Warren. And this is not only the destruction of Tara but also of Willow and i have said it before if the show stays that way, that isn't my Willow and this isn't my show anymore. Which is not to say Willow can't be redeemed, but of course she can, everyone can if they want to, but is that the season 7 I want to see. No. Will I see it? No.
[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 17, 2002).]
by The Godfather » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:25 pm
Xita: See I don't think Buffy DID try to kill Faith. I think she thought she could but when it came down to it..she knew she couldn't...but things worked out differently. The look on Buff's face when she stabbed Faith was absoloute shock and astonishment...
-Shawn
[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]
by Epicurus » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:27 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
It’s not Willow’s place to punish Warren - that’s why we have a justice system. If people took justice into their own hands it would lead to anarchy with innocents dying left and right. Not to mention that such an act will violate and pervert all that Willow represents in the Buffyverse.In my book, Willow is as much a hero as Buffy and if it’s wrong for Buffy to kill a human, it’s just as wrong for Willow to do so. I could never revel in seeing one of the kindest and sweetest characters on the show turned into a cruel, cold-blooded killer.
Killing Warren will not bring Tara back – it will only destroy Willow. And it’s the very last thing Tara would ever want Willow to do.
There is that part of me that agrees with your points and another part of me that doesn't.
Killing Warren will not bring Tara back and neither will letting the little bastard get away with it. The problem I have with the idea that it's the very last thing Tara would ever want Willow to do, is that Tara will be dead. A lot of good that sentiment will do for a grieving Willow.
by capricornmist » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:28 pm
Joss please, I can`t take it!
by Ari » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:31 pm
Oh, I thought Hell's Bells was second only to Wrecked in it's heavy handedness. My impression of it has always been that I understood what they were doing, I just wish it were being done with more style and fewer anvils.
That being said, this had the feeling to me of setting the stage for Anya's final story arc. I mean, she talks about how much she's changed, how she finaly gets love and will always love Xander, and then he breaks her heart. It's only going to get worse from there.
And when it's all said and done, if it plays out like the rumor, the saddest part is that Xander will have lost her forever and not even know what she did for him. I guess that's sort of the price he ultimately has to pay.
HB is also notable for the changing things to stop a bad future idea, too. The foreshadowing for it is definitely there.
Ari
by Stellasurya » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:33 pm
Blimey, this thread has added about 5 pages since I posted this A.M.! Just to say thanks for the answers. Just a daft poster/rumour-monger then re: Seth Green. Sorry to have bothered you on it.
Cheers,
Stella.
by BBOvenGuy » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:37 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
It’s not Willow’s place to punish Warren - that’s why we have a justice system. If people took justice into their own hands it would lead to anarchy with innocents dying left and right. Not to mention that such an act will violate and pervert all that Willow represents in the Buffyverse.In my book, Willow is as much a hero as Buffy and if it’s wrong for Buffy to kill a human, it’s just as wrong for Willow to do so. I could never revel in seeing one of the kindest and sweetest characters on the show turned into a cruel, cold-blooded killer.
YES - This is what I've been trying to get at.
I'm reserving judgement until I see exactly what happens with Willow and Warren and how it's reset/reversed/resolved/etc., but what I've seen before doesn't sound good. The things I saw and heard out in the desert on Tuesday suggest that BlackMagicWillow doesn't care about what happens to anyone who gets between her and Warren. It's not just Warren who's in danger because of her. That's a bad sign.
Also, as Scout said, it's not Willow's place to punish Warren. Warren is a human being subject to the laws of human society and should be punished by the justice system of that society. But there's more to it than that. Warren is entitled to his own chance for redemption. He has a soul, and while that makes what he's doing more reprehensible in some ways, it also means he can repent and seek forgiveness. I'd prefer he did it in a jail cell, but he deserves that opportunity just the same. If Faith can have that chance, then Warren can too. Willow has no right to take that away.
What we don't know yet is how much control Willow actually has over herself when the dark magic takes over. Her rage gives the dark magic its foothold, and she willingly takes it in, but what happens from there? Will it consume her, the way Sam said happened to the shamans? That's what we'll have to see. We'll also have to see how much Willow remembers about her experience and what she's willing to do about it once everything's over.
by mariacomet » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:41 pm
Cordelia: (notices Anya's pendant) Is that Gucci?
Anya: Um... no. It's an actual old thing, sort of a, um... good luck
charm my dad gave me.
snip
CORDELIA
Oh, yeah. I swear...
(beat)
I wish Buffy Summers had never
Come to Sunnydale.
Now Anya turns toward Cordy - revealing that her face has become a HIDEOUS DEMONIC VISAGE. Blank eyes. Skin, white and veiny... She smiles - a horrible, BROWN TOOTHED, evil grin - and utters in a gnarly, DEEP voice-
ANYA
Done.
snip
CLOSE ON THE BOOK
Which is turned to A PICTURE of CORDELIA'S PENDANT. The actual pendant sits beside it on the table.
GILES
It's what Cordelia was wearing.
The symbol of Anyanka. Anyanka raised a demon to ruin her
unfaithful lover. The demon did her
bidding - but then cursed her and
turned her into a sort of...
patron saint for scorned women.
Apparently, the cry of a wronged
woman is like a siren's call to Anyanka.
LARRY
What does she do?
GILES
She grants wishes.
snip
Giles has been going through books. Buffy stands, not helping.
GILES
Aha! Here.
(paraphrases)
In order to defeat Anyanka, one must
destroy her powercenter. This should
reverse all the wishes she has
granted, rendering her mortal and
powerless again.
(to Buffy)
You see, without her powercenter
she'll be just an ordinary woman
again and all this will be different.
(pleased)
I'd say my watcher muscles are not
completely atrophied after all.
Minor snip. This part just seemed interesting given the current season.
GILES
I don't want to kill her, Miss
Summers. Merely reverse whatever
effect she has had on this world.
BUFFY
You're taking a lot on faith here, Jeeves.
GILES
Giles.
BUFFY
Kill the bad fairy -- or destroy the
bad fairy's powercenter, whatever --
and all the troubles go away.
GILES
I'm sure it's not that simple, but...
BUFFY
World is what it is. We fight and
we die. Wishing doesn't change that.
GILES
I have to believe in a better world.
BUFFY
Go ahead. I have to live in this one.
Snip
GILES
Anyanka, I beseech thee, uh...
He looks back at the text. Finds his place again.
GILES
In the name of all women scorned -
come before me!
He lights a mixture of herbs in a chalice. Waits. Nothing seems to happen. Then, from the shadows, steps the girl we knew as ANYA.
However, her face is still HORRIBLE - the demonic visage we saw at the end of act one.
ANYANKA
DO you have any idea what I do to a
man who uses that spell to summon me?
Snip
Anyanka circles slowly towards Giles, who counters.
GILES
Cordelia Chase. What did she wish for?
ANYANKA
(smiling)
I had no idea her wish would be so...
exciting. A brave new world. I hope
she likes it.
GILES
She's dead.
ANYANKA
It happens.
GILES
You're going to change it back.
She moves toward him more directly, but he stands his ground.
GILES
I'm not afraid of you. Your only
power lies in the wishing.
She grabs him by the throat in a vice-like grip.
ANYANKA
Wrong.
snip
Giles stops clawing at her iron grip and SNATCHES her PENDANT off her neck. This action produces genuine TERROR in Anya's face. She lets go briefly, and he stumbles back.
ANYANKA
No!
She flies at him -- and he DECKS her, sends her flying back into a corner. She looks up as he puts the pendant on the table and grabs some desktop object that can be used as a mallet.
ANYANKA
Trusting fool! How do you know the
other world is any better than this?
GILES
(almost to himself)
Because it has to be.
snip. Moving on to
A dark and maleficent demon, D'HOFFRYN, sits on a stone altar, barely visible in the dim flicker of candlelight. Kneeling before him is ANYA, dressed in ceremonial robes. Neither of them is particularly happy.
D'HOFFRYN
Do not ask again! Your powers were
a gift of the lower beings. You have
proved unworthy of them.
ANYA
I was robbed of them!
D'HOFFRYN
By your carelessness.
ANYA
For a thousand years I wielded the
power of the wish. I brought ruin
upon the heads of unfaithful men, I
offered destruction and chaos for the
pleasure of the lowers beings. I was
feared and worshipped across the
mortal globe and now I'm stuck at
Sunnydale High! A mortal! A child!
And I'm flunking math.
snip
From the Body…
ANYA
But I don't understand!
Something in her tone stops Will, and as she continues, she breaks down more and more...
ANYA (cont'd)
I don't understand how this all
happens, how we go through this,
I mean I knew her and then she's,
there's just a body, I don't
understand why she just can't get
back in it and not be dead, it's
stupid, it's mortal and stupid,
Xander's crying and not talking and
I was having fruit punch and I
thought that Joyce would never have
any more fruit punch and she'd never
have eggs, or yawn, or brush her
hair, not ever and no one will explain...
[This message has been edited by mariacomet (edited March 17, 2002).]
by Tara Lover » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:42 pm
by AutumnT » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:50 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Tara Lover:
I've had an unfortunate thought, didn't someone say the BSD would involve someone sacrificing themselves for a loved one, could this mean Tara gets shot trying to save Buffy in the friendship love sense
That doesn't match what we know happens via the spoilers. Tara's shooting is accidental and Warren doesn't even know it happened until much later.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
quote:by Epicurus » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:53 pm
quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
Warren is a human being subject to the laws of human society and should be punished by the justice system of that society. But there's more to it than that. Warren is entitled to his own chance for redemption. He has a soul, and while that makes what he's doing more reprehensible in some ways, it also means he can repent and seek forgiveness.
See, that's why my problems lie.
I see that as an "I can do anything I please or even something bad cause I can make up for it later." attitude.
It's like confession at church. Say a pray and enter heaven. *shoots herself in the foot*
Yes it is wrong to kill Warren out of revenge. If that is the point you are trying to make then I agree. I just sympathise too much with Willow and her wanting to get rid of the one thing that took her love away.
[This message has been edited by Epicurus (edited March 17, 2002).]
quote:by BBOvenGuy » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:04 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Epicurus:
I see that as an "I can do anything I please or even something bad cause I can make up for it later." attitude.
It's like confession at church. Say a pray and enter heaven.
Ah, but if you have that kind of attitude, then the confession and prayer aren't sincere, and so there is no repentence. I'm not talking about what Dietrich Bonhoeffer referred to as "cheap grace." I'm talking about a sincere change of heart and a sincere desire for forgiveness. Will Warren ever do that? Maybe not - but as a human being he still deserves the opportunity.
Again, compare the situation to the one with Faith. I'm essentially taking the same position Angel did then.
And likewise, of course, Willow will deserve the opportunity to redeem what she does while she's under the inflence of the dark magic. We just don't know what she does and in what state she's in at the end yet.
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited March 17, 2002).]
quote:by EvilAnya » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:13 pm
They've messed so much with the mythology of vengeance demon powers and the whole theory of the wishverse though that i don't know what to believe. Technically the episode Dopplegangland shouldn't have happened because with the reversal of the wish, vamp willow shouldn't have ever existed, plus Giles said all Anyanka's wishes should have been reversed and as we've seen that isn't true.
Anyway, i thought the idea that anyanka may have other powers other than the wish was interested and might be used to change the way things end up.
In other news I've had several nightmares where i come home and find my boyfriend dead from a gunshot, perhaps i should lay off the spoilers.
edited to say: sorry mariecomet, i didn't see your post talking about the wish, didn't mean to be redundant
[This message has been edited by EvilAnya (edited March 17, 2002).]
by Willowlicious » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:15 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Epicurus:
See, that's why my problems lie.I see that as an "I can do anything I please or even something bad cause I can make up for it later." attitude.
It's like confession at church. Say a pray and enter heaven. *shoots herself in the foot*
Yes it is wrong to kill Warren out of revenge. If that is the point you are trying to make then I agree. I just sympathise too much with Willow and her wanting to get rid of the one thing that took her love away.
[This message has been edited by Epicurus (edited March 17, 2002).]
I agree with Scout and Bob that it is not Willow's place to punish Warren. That is what the justice system--and God, if you believe--is for. However, my point a couple of pages back was that, even if you believe Willow has a right to kill Warren (which I don't), doing so is not in Willow's best interest. Not only does she legally become a murderer, she also loses a part of her soul she can never fully replace. It further wounds her. Murder, I imagine, is never a soothing, soul-enriching experience, no matter the circumstance. To sanction Willow's revenge is to sanction Willow's utter destruction.
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 17, 2002).]
quote:by Shewolf » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:21 pm
quote:
Funny..I tend to think that ambiguity has damaged the BuffyVerse more than it has helped it. No one knows anymore what to make of certain scenes and the audience is too divided. People see subtext and shades of grey everywhere and to explain every action. It's become a crutch.
Honestly the whole soul issue is a bothersome thing. I'd prefer BUFFY return to it's way of old as opposed to digging even deeper into refuting it's previous mythology. I just don't think they can win that way..
Ah yes.The tupical B/A shipper debate about the 'golden seasons' and how everything went to hell after that...
Well, as i person who actually likes the show I'm watching, I have to say those seasons (4-6) have given us a lot. They have given us more complex plots, character developpement and shades of gray. They've given us episodes like the Gift, the Body and Once More With Feeling.More importantly, they have given us Tara.
And back on topic, I truly believe that Willow can be redeemed, even if she does kill Warren. It's Willow-I'm not giving up on her.
quote:by xita » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:24 pm
1. Joyce, the mother figure, dies
2. Tara gets her brain sucked after a fight with Willow
3. Buffy, the best friend, dies.
4. She is all of a sudden in charge of a demon fighting gang.
5. She brings Buffy back from the dead, but it doesn't make anything easier.
6. Finds out she took her best friend out of heaven.
7. Splits up with GF.
8. Turns fully to the abuse of something and is addicted.
9. Becomes a crack ho.
10. Hurts and almost kills surrugate daughter.
11. Gets her life back and starts doing the right thing and it may be the hardest thing she's had to face, certainly we know it's very hard for anyone to do so.
12. Reunites with the one and only love of her life.
13. Soulmate promptly gets killed by a random act of violence perpetrated by THE BIGGEST MiSONGYNIST Buffy has ever known.
What would you do? I think Willow doesn't care. Willow is on a suicide run. I think if all those things happened to you, you might give up on life too. Plus there is the definite effect that physically alters Willow. It really can't be argued that Willow is a different person when in the influence of. Anyway, she is very well aware of the shaman tale. She knows this will only have one end for her and that is death.
[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 17, 2002).]
by Tara Lover » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:24 pm
by Epicurus » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:27 pm
Willowlicious,
No, I imagine dealing with being a murder is not soothing, soul-enriching experience. As I say above, Willow will have to deal with consequences for acting out her rage and ending human life. I can’t speak for how she will ultimately feel regarding having to live with it for the rest of her life, but I know I personally would want revenge and could therefore see Willow taking justice into her own hands.
Tara was her life, would the Willow we know and love feel she has anything else to live for?
by Lijdrec » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:32 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Tara Lover:
How is killing Warren any different to Buffy attempting to kill Faith and killing a number of knights of Byzantium, all human, Warren proves himself to be as much of a threat as any of them so I feel Willow is completely justified in her vengeance, only if she hurts other people in the process would it be wrong.
The KoB were attacking the gang, Buffy's fight was only in self-defense. If you look you will only find one Knight directly killed by Buffy (an axe), the rest were killed primarily by their own mischances, by falling off the camper.
Buffy considered Faith her very own problem, because they were (to use Dracula's word) 'kindred'. Two Slayers bound by a mystical calling that Faith was not upholding. Not to say what Buffy did was right, but there was a rightousness in it...
quote:by AutumnT » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:34 pm
quote:
Originally posted by xita:
Willow is on a suicide run
This is exactly the way I've read things as well. To have Tara killed just when they get back together after literally months of Willow doing everything she could to work towards that will kill her inside, and turning to the dark is her way of just ending it all with a bang.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
quote:by BBOvenGuy » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:38 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Epicurus:
But by who’s definition of sincerity? Is it guilt, remorse, or out of fear?
Being sorry for or guilty about certain actions one has committed in the past does not change that they still occurred. The issue should be punishment not redemption.
Ah, now you're getting into questions of spirituality and religion - at least by my standards, anyway. I could discuss them at length, but they don't really belong in the spoiler thread.
If Warren's dead, though, he has no possibility for redemption no matter whose standards for sincerity you're using. And again, I don't think it's Willow's place to do that to him.
quote:by Willowlicious » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:39 pm
The only solution? Reset.
Woohoo! I'm only two posts shy of Willowhand!
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 17, 2002).]
by mariacomet » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:39 pm
1. Faith killed someone accidentally Yes, she lied. Yes, she tried to blame Buffy. Yes, she betrayed Buffy and almost went on to help kill Buffy, several friends and create hell on earth.
But Faith was a bad guy by then. and when she began to regret what she had done, and tried to seek (in her own f-ed up way) to seek amends for her actions, then with Angel's help, she was "redeemed"
2.Buffy was acting in self defense.
One action no matter how bad or good does not make someone a saint or a sinner aka Good or Evil.
By what we know so far, Willow chases down Warren, tortures him in various ways and then kills him. In essense, he is unarmed - at least in the sense that no way in hell can he defend himself against her. So she kills someone purposely who is defenseless.
It doesn't matter what Warren's moral code is or how bad Warren is. What matters when looking at how Willow is effected by it is what WILLOW's code is and how good she has always tried to be. This act goes against the fundementals of who she has always tried to be.
Joss has never created a pretext where-in taking a human life - no matter how much of a jerk the human is - is not a serious issue.
by Tara Lover » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:45 pm
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