General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 10

[Adia]

I also hope that a reversal is on the cards. What other choices do we have available to us for making Tara alive again? I'm sure that if this doesn't happen, Joss will have something else up his sleeves. He can't end the season with a broken Willow and no Tara. Well, technically, he can, but only if he has no heart and a lust for ripping *our* hearts out too.

I've every belief that Tara will be happy and alive by the end of the season and that there'll be plenty of W/T smooching scenes to see us through the long summer before the next season. (Adia hails down the 'Everything Will Be Okay in the End' bus and hops on)

I doubt that Willow would try to resurrect Tara like she did with Buffy -- I can imagine Buffy convincing her that Tara's better off left in heaven/the summerlands than resurrected. After all, Buffy has the experience in that respect, she can assure Willow that Tara is at peace. Willow would never put Tara through the pain of being ripped out of heaven for anything. She might consider it in a moment of raw grief (who'd blame her?) but then she'd probably turn her intentions to Warren and give him the most painful kind of vengeance in the book.

I think there are lots of vengeance parallels on BTVS and Angel this year, what with Anya and Holtz. I'm sure they'll all be concluded in different ways.

Anya. She's definitely the key to the season finale. I just feel it!

Adia(a newbie who felt like waffling)

------------------
"If I could tell the world just one thing it'd be -- we're all okay" Jewel

[Willowhand]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Web Warlock:
Where I am sitting, if Willow goes after Warren and kills him in the most horrible way possible, then I'll fine with that. No need to redeem.

I would be upset if Willow DIDN'T go after Warren. He murdered her love.

And if Buffy holds Willow back this time, it better be because she wants to get a bigger axe to join the carnage.

---

Ditto.

quote:

[VampNo1]

About Xander having to make a choice about saving his friends or letting Anya as a vengence demon continue havoc makes sense. I remember one of the writers on the Bronze either Fury or Deknight (not sure which one) saying Xander would be paying for his mistakes sometime this season. Personally, I don't think these comments pertain to Xander dumping Anya at the alter. So maybe Xander has to "Grow-up" and make a hard decision that in the end will do "the greater good", but greatly break his heart. Also I keep going back to Restless where his father rips his heart out and wonder if this has any significance to the end of this season. I know one could look at this scene as his fathers faults (being a drunk, emotionally abusing his wife, etc) could of made Xander break his own heart by not marrying Anya (thus father literally rips Xanders heart out), but I still think the scene from Restless is foreshadowing of a more harrowing decision then just not deciding to get married.

[calistafigg]

Warduke, I'm not even going to go into this right now but I posted a whole soul/conscious thing on some board somewhere around the phrase Dawn says in Crush.

"Spike has a chip, same diff."

It could be on the sweet poison board but thats a long shot.

c

[The Godfather]

calistaflag: Just because a character says it..doesn't make it true. Especially when the character was the unelightened Dawn. And no..a soul and a chip are NOT the same thing. I think Petrie or one of the writers even said as much. Angelus would be the same monster with the chip only more creative in his killing methods. Spike is the same person he was during season 2 only he can't kill. Angel and Angelus aren't the same. Spike and William aren't the same. A chip doesn't bring with it remorse, guilt or any degree of concern about past deeds. A soul does.

I actually would hope that Buffy WOULD try to hold Wills back.

Not because it's not what she wouldn't want to do. But because Buffy knows what murder can do to someone's soul. She's seen it firsthand from Angel.

It's Buff's responsibility as her friend to try to help her when she is in a moral crisis..

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]

[Willowhand]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adia:
Well, technically, he can, but only if he has no heart and a lust for ripping *our* hearts out too.

---

Which he does.

quote:

[Ari]

Shawn,

Very good point about how well Willow's been doing. She really has.

In the end, it all comes down to love, right? That's Joss' favorite emotion.

She quit because it was messing with the people she loved, Tara, Dawn, etc. And when she made her mind to do it, she did it. No matter how hard it was.

And what pushes her over the edge? Love. And the agony of losing Tara just when she has gotten her back. Very Jossian.

The answer either has to be that love would bring her back again, which runs the risk of being repetative. Since that's pretty much what she's been doing for half the season. Are we in for another season where half her plots are about not using magic? Or the other answer is that love will eventually keep it all from happening in the first place.

Ari

[Warduke]

quote:

---

Originally posted by calistafigg:
"Spike has a chip, same diff."

---

No, it's not the same diff, but I agree, this being a W/T board, I'm done talking about Spike.

Let's get back to the reason people should be here, Willow and Tara.quote:

[theatremouse]

quote:

---

Originally posted by calistafigg:
[B] What exactly has xander done?

B]

---

well ya know there was that whole summoned that dancing combustion causing demon. which btw was weakly explained away in that ep when he admitted to it. it kinda makes whoever did burn up from the inside, xander's fault. that had no repercussions whatsoever......
thats just the first example that comes to mind.

------------------
It's horrible! That's me as a vampire. I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay.quote:

[The Godfather]

Ari: My guess is that there will be consequences for every action. Now, I know nothing about magic or wicca so I'm gonna speak from bad places.

I could see something being placed on Willow whereas that if she were to use magic again, she, like the two shamans from AYW, would simply cease to exist..

theatremouse: I have to admit..I find myself conflicted on the concept of murder by party. Xand's intentions were good and he wasn't the one he killed those people. He can't be held as more than an accomplice...

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]

[calistafigg]

it's calistafigg. And somewhere, I still see hope for spike... I cant see him going bad agin... too much character development.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

c

[Sela]

calistafigg--another instance I can remember regarding Xander was in Season 2, when Willow tried to restore Angel's soul. They sent Xander to warn Buffy so that she could keep Angel occupied. And instead of warning Buffy, Xander encourages her to kill him. That's never really been addressed. So, he's done his fair share. magrat was right--Willow always has to pay for the things she does. And eventually, everyone does. I just think it's Xander's turn.

--Sela

[The Godfather]

calistafigg: First..sorry on that.

It's the character development part that befuddles me. I see the same lovesick man as I saw in season 2. He would have done ANYTHING for Dru. He let her decide his actions..everything was about her. I see the same for Buffy..but I don't actually see changes in him.

Everytime that he has made a decision of his own..it has turned out to be a dark one i.e. the eggs.

Also, true character development never dictates only one path. If Spike is truly straddling the line..then it's equally logical that he would return to his roots..who in fact he is. He is still a vampire and sometimes all the personal development in the world can't triumph over nature.

JMO.

-Shawn

[Ari]

Shawn,

Well, but if something external kept her from using magic at all then it wouldn't be about her own will and choice.

What was it Anya said in OAFA? There's a difference between 'can't' and 'won't' and the importance of it was her own strength in making the choice not to. It undercuts her story if the thing which helps or keeps her away from magic is something out of her own control.

It would be like her version of a chip.

Ari

[The Godfather]

Oh I agree..my point is that it seems to me that the magic storyline will be wrapped this season.

I don't know if it's possible to make someone magic dumb..

But having Willow with that much power on a constant everyday basis...well..

-Shawn

[Adia]

Originally posted by Web Warlock.

And if Buffy holds Willow back this time, it better be because she wants to get a bigger axe to join the carnage.

I think she wouldn't stop Willow. When Will decided to go after Glory for brain-sucking Tara, Buffy did try to stop her, but the circumstances were so different. Buffy's reasoning wasn't that it'd be morally wrong for Willow to kill Glory, but that it was suicide.

From "Tough Love":

BUFFY: This is not the time.

WILLOW: When, Buffy? When is? When *you* feel like it? When it's someone *you* love as much as I love Tara? When it's Dawn, is that it?

BUFFY: When we have a chance. We'll fight her, when we have a chance. You wouldn't last five minutes with her, Willow. She's a god.

or later:

BUFFY: I told Willow it would be like suicide.

Sure, Warren is human, but does that give him a free pass? I guess that's the whole icky question. If Warren were even slightly demon, no-one would probably bat an eyelid if Willow killed him. But he's human. Joss has really set himself up for a morality question, hasn't he?

I guess the only reason Buffy would try to stop Willow killing Warren would be that she's scared of how it would destroy her soul in the process. After murder, there is no going back. But after Tara's death, Willow has nothing to lose.

WILLOW: "Hear that, baby? You're my always."

Too right.

Adia
X

[calistafigg]

Sela, Okay... now I see what your talking about... I thought you meant that Xander being punished meant An had to die, and as I am a die hard An fan, I was trying to be defensive.

Shawn, The lovesick Spike in season two was a headstrong idiot who didn't know how to care. Spike, I think more recently, has started to feel differently about Buffy, I don't think that the love is as intense anymore, and noone is happier about that then me. Spike was really starting to get on my nerves.

IMO, If Buffy had not been resurected, Spike would still have looked after Dawn "Till the end of the world." I believe he's becoming more human.

c

[Adia]

Oops -- sorry, I thought I'd understood how to do quotation marks html thing. I was wrong

Adia
X

[The Godfather]

calistafigg: Not sure what you mean by didn't know when to care? In LIE TO ME..he gave up everything to save Dru's life. Everything was about Dru.

I also don't think Spike is as much in love with Buffy as he used to be..I think the obsession is returning..being with her wasn't what he thought it would be. And he still doesn't know her(as was evidenced by him thinking that she could ever be happy in the dark).

Spike is still headstrong and arrogant. He's just leashed and I think he's coming to the end of that. Especially with Xan relentlessly(and stupidly) exploiting his weakness..

Spike caring about someone doesn't make him human. He's always cared deeply about someone. But interestingly enough..as of late..he could care less about Dawn. He seems to be moving backwards from any progress he made while Buffy was dead. Almost as if getting her reversed everything because he no longer had to try. He had her.

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]

[Willowlicious]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Web Warlock:
Where I am sitting, if Willow goes after Warren and kills him in the most horrible way possible, then I'll fine with that. No need to redeem.

I would be upset if Willow DIDN'T go after Warren. He murdered her love.

And if Buffy holds Willow back this time, it better be because she wants to get a bigger axe to join the carnage.

This is no comparing this situation to ANYTHING Angel/Angeleus, Spike, or Faith have done. In those cases they were all premeditated calculated murder.

I don't get why people can sit there and tell me Spike is redeemed (he isn't, he is impotent) but wonder if Willow can be? What sort of insane troll logic is that?

Warlock.

---

That Willow would kill Warren after he murders Tara is a problematic, but forgivable action for me. My objection is not that Warren doesn't deserve to die, but that killing someone always changes the killer for the worse, no matter how justified. From everything we've seen of Willow for 5 1/2 years, she is a sensitive, loving, good-hearted person who feels guilt acutely. Killing a human (or humans as rumor has it) will obliterate the essence of the character we've come to love. That there is torture involved in this scenario is even more frightening, and is another heavy burden for Willow's conscience to bear. It's like that quote (god, I can't think of who said it!), "It's not the dying, it's the killing."

Could Willow be ultimately redeemed from torturing and killing Warren? Sure. But it would take a hell of a lot longer than Season 7 and she could never again be happy. The writers have gone out of their way to say that Tara is Willow's forever true love (the only one whose love can ever make her happy) and now are making it clear that Tara is the anchor to Willow's soul, as well. With winning Tara's love as a goal, Willow has bettered herself, without Tara's love she is quite possibly forever lost, definitely forever unhappy.

People tell you your whole life that you can't do things for other people, you have to do things for yourself. This suggests that one person can't be your salvation. The older I get, the more I believe that sometimes one person or one belief CAN be your salvation. It can be the reason you stay on the right path, your reason for living. You make the choice to embrace that person or belief because you know it's your only hope. Tara is Willow's salvation. If you kill Tara, you kill Willow.

It's not that I think she wouldn't deserve or couldn't earn redemption. It's that I think that her spirit--which is her specific role in the Scoobies--would be forever broken. If she ever returned to her right mind after her rampage (I don't think she can), I think guilt and horror and grief would crush her.

Maybe it's just me.

Amy

EDITED TO ADD: Plus she's been miserable since Tough Love last season! She had a major fight with Tara, Tara gets brainsucked, she vows to care for Tara forever if necessary, she gets Tara back, but then Buffy dies, she holds the Scoobs together all summer, brings Buffy back, is scolded by Giles and finds out Buffy is miserable, Tara is unhappy with her magick use and leaves her, she goes on a bender and nearly kills Dawn, she goes through a long withdrawal from magick, she pulls herself together, wins Tara back only to have Tara murdered and then she turns in to a murderer!

I, for one, don't want to spend next season with Willow trying to redeem herself. As I already said above, I don't think it's possible, but I also don't want to watch mopey, suicidal Willow all next season! Pick on someone else! (Like Xander "Mr. Teflon" Harris!)

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 17, 2002).]quote:

[Ari]

Amy,

Yes, I agree. That's one of the many reasons why I keep thinking it has to be undone. They make each other complete.

Which is wonderful, but also means that when one is missing, the other is incomplete.

Willow's reaction to losing Tara should make that pretty clear.

Ari

[mariacomet]

Regarding Willow's redemption:

I don't question whether Willow has a right to being redeemed or whether or not she could be. My answer to both of these two questions is certainly. If all Willow does is kill Warren after he kills Tara then at worst Willow will be a hero who acted against her character in a fit of rage.

This does not make her evil.

And while we hover at that point, we have to go back to the question of what ME might be trying to do with a 'Tara death' scene. Willow killing Warren is not enough to make her a big bad. Yes, it does go against her character, in the sense that the person that Willow likes to be is both giving and generous. But to make Willow a big bad, IF that is ME's intent...Willow killing Warren will NOT be enough.

I never have questioned IF Willow can be redeemed. I do question how she could ever recover and be the same character that we now know. Tara's death would be enough of a blow to destroy Willow, but then this decent into darker magics and murder...the question of how the Willow we know would ever come back from the two events settles in my mind uneasily.

So when I talk about irrevocable events and believing that ME will not go there, what I mean is that....to do the two things mentioned above, you would in essense have to completely re-write Willow. That's a pretty big risk, even for a cutting edge fellow like Joss.

The "Oh Grow Up" ideal

It strikes me that it is ludicrous to establish a season where the goal is for the characters to grow up and then PUNISH one of the characters for doing exactly that.

Characters that I see as trying to grow up and making strides:

Dawn
Buffy
Willow.

Characters that continue to run away from their problems instead of taking actions to DEAL with them:

Xander.

The Anya death scenario (which I wish wouldn't happen, but if Joss is detemined to kill SOMEONE) makes sense only in that it may force Xander to grow the heck up.

[This message has been edited by mariacomet (edited March 17, 2002).]

[shellybean]

I thought that maybe what Willow does after killing Warren is go on some type of vengeance spree. We've kind of seen the forshadowing like in Triangle when Anya said that Willow was closer to being a vengeance demon than she was. And another bit in Tabula Rasa when Willow said she was just trying to help people with her magic and Tara said that it may have started out that way but now she's doing things for her own selfish reasons. So I can see Willow just trying to "right wrongs" by going around and giving harsh punishments like death to others. This would be a good reason for Buffy to need to stop Willow and it won't TOTALLY make her evil.
And I agree about the Xander never getting punished for his mistakes but Willow always getting blamed and punished for her's. Like did Xander get any reprimand for summoning Sweet in Once More, with Feeling? Being a scooby member from the start he should have known that summoning a demon to dance and sing was NOT a good idea! And its not like there was only singing and dancing either. At least one person was killed. After all this did he get any punishment? NO! And when something happens like Buffy turns invisible, Willow is the first one that's blamed. and of course she didn't do it AND saved the day. Sorry for going off, I'm just venting some anger about other things.

------------------
Willow: "Besides, spells going awry, friends in danger...I'm really nothing special."
Tara: "No, you are"
Willow and Tara's first real conversation - "Hush"

"Hear that baby? You're my always"
Willow to Tara - "Tough Love"

"HEY! You're gonna back off! She said no and thats it, you're not going to make her do something that she doesn't want to. And if you try, you're going to have to go through me. Understood?"
Tara standing up for Willlow and being the protective ex and bad ass - "Older and Far Away"

"Hi Tara, How are you? I was wondering if maybe you want to go out sometime? For coffee? food? kissing and gay love?"
Willow practicing asking Tara out - "Normal Again"

[calistafigg]

I don't know... there's part of me which agrees with everything you say, but another part which believes Joss has something really good up his sleeve instore for Spike, and it will come when we least expect it.

Either way, I have strong reason to believe that Spike will not be around for the end of season seven, so whatever Joss has planned will come early in season seven.

c

[Zahir]

Seems to me that its general behavior that needs redemption rather than single acts. Anybody can get away with one mistake or horrible action. In fact, most of characters on the show have done.

But its the habit that's the problem, and its the habit that gets them (well, all of us) in trouble.

Willow didn't use magic recklessly once, but many times. She was lucky and got away with it. But not forever. Xander tends to panic and do things without thoughts to consequence. This has now turned around and bitten him. Hard. Where it hurts most, the heart (ask Willow). Buffy's whole mix of control freak and martyr complex likewise has now put her in a really bad place. Meanwhile, Tara's bad habit is much more subtle--eclipsing her own good judgement.

And its interesting the price everybody's paying is emotional. Including Spike!

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[Morphine]

Shawn, I appreciated your comments on Willow getting better.

Forgive me if this has been mentionned lately, but does anyone feel the new and improved Magick-free Willow is a lot like Season 4 Tara? In her actions, her speech patterns, her facial expressions...

And in Season 6, Tara is becoming much more like Season 4-5 Willow, confident, strong and peaceful...

Is it possible that the way to Willow's "redemption" after tormenting Warren passes not only through her love for Tara, but possibly through her love for herself? Tara said "I know what they see in me. You." Perhaps the roles will be reversed. Tara will be the one reaching for Willow and bringing her forth, helping her find her place as a new individual, like she did for her earlier...

Now let's hope that's no-bodily-harm Tara. Not I'm-The-Ghost-Of-Bad-Endings-Past Tara.

------------------
Tara: No, see, 'cause your insect reflection represents your insignificance... in terms of the karmic cycle.

[The Godfather]

calistafigg: See that's where it becomes speculative because for me..something really good for Spike would be him returning to his full Big Bad Glory...

Are you saying you think he'll be written out before season 7 is halfway done?

-Shawn

[Ari]

Zahir,

About the whole idea of what price everyone is paying, I don't think they are all only emtional. For example, when Willow went on her bender, she wound up hurting Dawn pretty badly. So when she gave up the magic and started paying her own price, she had actual physical symptoms, including a fair amount of pain.

I think the nature of the price you pay correlates directly to the consequences of your mistake. Which means it follows that if your mistake kills people, the price is probably going to be your own life.

Ari

[magrat]

Calistafigg: to be perfectly honest I couldn't give a F**k what happens to Spike although I do agree with Shawn I preffered the Big Bad to the whipped puppy dog.

On redempetion a good brief would probaly get Willow off a murder charge but if or when she comes to her senses I don't think she could forgive herself that is why I am hoping that if there is a reset button she would have to know her dark side or there would be no point to the plot line.

[Willowlicious]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ari:
Amy,

Yes, I agree. That's one of the many reasons why I keep thinking it has to be undone. They make each other complete.

Which is wonderful, but also means that when one is missing, the other is incomplete.

Willow's reaction to losing Tara should make that pretty clear.

Ari

---

Thank you, Ari. I also believe it is one of the many reasons this is all headed for a reversal of some sort.

quote: