General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 10

[calistafigg]

But don't Jonathon and Andrew get arrested at some point?

c

[Katie]

Shawn - interesting point about ratings. Do you know of anywhere that has a list of the ratings for various seasons? What has been the most popular season?

Thanks

------------------
What can't we face if we're together?

[BBOvenGuy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Godfather:
We've seen Spike murder a teacher for no reason beyond pleasure. We've seen him kill two Slayers and attempt to kill Will. We've seen him murder a shopkeeper. Thus if one killing pushes Will beyond redemption... then Spike should be staked yesterday.

---

Ah, but there are some of us who believe that Spike should be staked yesterday.

quote:

---

Heroes ARE held to a higher standard but Angel got away with killing all those lawyers because well... TPTB were ok with it. Same thing... viciously bad people...

---

Well, Angel didn't so much kill all the lawyers as he refused to prevent them from being killed. And even then he had to go through a long road of pain and despair to get back to his heroic self, and the consequences of that long road are still being played out through Conner.

quote:

---

I have issues with selective redemption in that matter. Spike at least lacks a soul. But Will would be no different than Faith... and if Faith can be on the road(redemption is an everyday process... you're never there until your tale is told IMO) to it... so then again can Will(eventually).

---

Ah, but Faith is in jail now. Should Willow go to jail as well?

Like I said, we have to see how it plays out. Right now we're making judgements on something we can't see clearly. Once we see exactly what Willow does and what the consequences of it are, we can figure out how we want to respond to it.
quote:quote:quote:

[Sela]

calistafigg--I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to Anya either, but if it came down to a choice...sorry, I'd just HAVE to pick Tara. I really wish they wouldn't because I think a BSD is unnecessary. In fact, I think there are other, much more fascinating ways to further storylines and develop characters than to have someone viciously gunned down, but alas, I have no control over it.

--Sela

[BBOvenGuy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinkycat:
I should mention I am a Spike fan. I don't dis W/T on Spike sites. I would think I could get the same curtesy here.

---

Um, excuse me but I don't think it's dissing Spike to point out that he's evil. He says so himself. Regularly.quote:

[The Godfather]

First, I don't think both relationships are non-traditional. I think B/S is. I guess I just don't find lesbian relationships to be non-traditional..just me. However a vamp and a slayer, a human and a dead guy, a hero and a killer..that's non-traditional.

I wasn't comparing Spike to Angelus. In any way shape or form. And as far as I'm concerned..after the first body hits the ground..body count no longer matters. You're not going to win an argument by saying well Angelus killed 3000 people and Spike only 2000 so Spike should be allowed to live. You can't speak to the character of a person by using another as a roadmap. Each is to their own deeds. Spike isn't better because Angelus is worse.

The fact is..Spike IS an unrepentant killer. He should be dealt with in that manner but has not been which dramatically flies in the fact of every redemption quest this show has ever shown.

Faith killed and now she serves time for it. We don't know what her sentence is but she may never come out. Could she be doing more good in the real world? Absoloutely but her path is punishment.

Angel's path is redemption through kindness and action. To make a difference is people's lives and to save souls.

If Willow kills..and she is to be on a redemptive path..hers will likely be a mixture of both. Angel and Faith both showed massive remorse..it's likely Wills will as well.

Would Willow be more heinous because she is a human capable of actively deciphering between right and wrong, good and evil?

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]

[xita]

pinkycat No one is bashing and that is the rule. But people are allowed to state what they like and don't like.
People are actually stating facts about spike.
And what relationships are you talking about? No one was talking about a relationship. People were talking about spike.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 17, 2002).]

[Artemisia]

I must say that I was at the edge of reason due to these spoilers & felt myself to be without hope if all these things were true. However, though I do not doubt the spoilers, I am believe with perfect faith that things will not end like this from the purely logical certainity of cast. Let me explain, given things go this way we have

1) Giles in England
2) Tara Dead
3) Willow Wicked
4) Anya well Demony or something else?
5) Spike- in Africa having chip removed
6) Xander- well on his way to crazy, if not already there- He surely could not survive this sort of blow & retain any mental health- It would destoy him to have Willow hurt & acting in such a manner, as would Anya becoming Anyanka( he does love her in his fashion)
Thus we would be left with:

Buffy, Dawn,& the crowd favorite, Clem.

Therefore, only 2 of the cast members would be viable(everyone, after all, cannot be evil) & I do not see Joss hiring a whole new group of people for one year. What would they call it, the Buffy& Dawn show? Plus, it seems very messy to introduce Amy & then drop her half way through. And if kept this way Buffy would spend her year much like this one, dealing with pain anguish, & death, which seems more like asoap opera than this show. I realize this is speculation, but it is based on logical fact & not positing any way this could happen. Anybody else agree with me?

------------------
Every feeling revolts!
(Jane!)

[calistafigg]

But can someone explain to me why Anya has to die to bring back Tara... can they not both be alive?

c

quote:

---

Originally posted by Artemisia:
only 2 of the cast members would be viable(everyone, after all, cannot be evil) & I do not see Joss hiring a whole new group of people for one year. What would they call it, the Buffy& Dawn show? Plus, it seems very messy to introduce Amy & then drop her half way through. And if kept this way Buffy would spend her year much like this one, dealing with pain anguish, & death, which seems more like asoap opera than this show. I realize this is speculation, but it is based on logical fact & not positing any way this could happen. Anybody else agree with me?

---

Yes! So Tara will be back and Anya will be fine.

So there.

c

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 17, 2002).]quote:

[Sela]

calistafigg--I don't think that will necessarily be the case. Anya may not have to die. No one may die. It's just that right now it seems that someone will die, and it will be a permanent death. We get this idea from various spoiler sources. What I'm saying is that if there will be a death, I most certainly don't want it to be Tara. That's all. Nothing is confirmed. Nothing is certain.

--Sela

[The Godfather]

My feeling? Because it's such a Jossian way to approach redemption.

If Anya is someway sets all of this in motion and lives are affected by her emotion and rage..then she is culpable.

And the ultimate act of selflessness and of redemption is consious self-sacrifice to correct ones wrongs.

Just my feeling but I think THAT act would connect more fully with the audience than the senseless murder of Tara.

-Shawn

[xita]

Pinky, use the [ quote ] tags please, read the FAQ if you don't know how. Your posts are really hard to read. I don't know what is your comment and what is a quote.

And this is a w/t board you got that right. We don't go to spike boards to talk about spike, we can do it here and as long as people don't bash they can talk about it. If you have a problem with people saying spike is evil, then perhaps you should just hang out at spike board, because at the kitty, the only requirement is that you love w/t. People can love or dislike spike, we don't have a problem with either.
so, pinky drop it, ok?

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 17, 2002).]

[Sela]

Please, please, please, just listen to our lovely mod, Xita!!! We all love Willow and Tara. Let's keep the love going here.

--Sela

[calistafigg]

Shawn,

I agree with you, but I don't see why Anya should have to die because of it... It would probably push Xander over the edge.

If Anya contributed to bringing Tara back to life, but not necessarily sacrifying herself in the process, could there be a bringing back together of Anya and Xander? That would make alot of fans happier in the long run, having both couples back together.

I'm starting to see some light appearing, but I think it's just a whopping Joss-sized train.

c

[The Godfather]

Calistaflag: Oh I agree..I don't want to see Anya going anywhere. I'll admit that at heart..I'm still a Cor/Xander fan but I like Anya. However, if she doesn't die..then it seems to me that there should still be consequences..something taken? Make any sense?

Sue: I thought I had been.

Someone said that if Willow kills then redemption is not possible. I say that is untrue.

As long as Faith or Angel can strive for redemption, it is certainly possible for Willow.

As long as there are redemptionistas, then the concept of Willow being incapable of it is galling to me.

I believe redemption must be earned. I believe it must include guilt, remorse, punishment and action. We've seen none of those things from Spike. We've seen those from Angel and Faith.

That's just me.

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]

[magrat]

I've waited a long time to make a post partly through shock and partly through other commitments.

1) Tensai's thoughts ?. I don't get it but then again he was pretty sure Faith was going to be BSD not long age

2) I am going to be a fool and reserve judgement. I am one of those people who fell in love with Willow from day one. Why? She just seemed so sweet yet her mind was totally original and brilliant. The thought of how brave she was in the season 1 with no powers and to believe now she will be evil. I find it almost as a personal slight Willow has had many faults but evil no way.

3) On a another note why is Willow always punished for her slightest mistake, yet Xander has never been punished for anything and that has been going on from season2.

I am not sure why these thoughts more than any other seem too strike me.

Being Britsh I have just watched "Gone" this week and one thing that did strike hasn't Willow got the diamond, you know the one the one that she told Xander had mystical quantum properties???????????!!!!

If the worst does come to the worst and this is the end of Amber Benson on Buffy (I really really hope not) I would like to say thank you for all the hours of pleasure she has given me and wish her every luck for the future. Although with her talent she doesn't need it.

[calistafigg]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Godfather:
I believe redemption must be earned. I believe it must include guilt, remorse, punishment and action. We've seen none of those things from Spike. We've seen those from Angel and Faith.

---

I'm sure that's what Joss has planned for next season, some sort of Spike redemption thing, because when he gets his chip out I really can't see him going back to his evil ways, Two regulars can't turn evil surely?

quote:

---

3) On a another note why is Willow always punished for her slightest mistake, yet Xander has never been punished for anything and that has been going on from season2.

---

What exactly has xander done?

c

[This message has been edited by calistafigg (edited March 17, 2002).]quote:quote:

[Warduke]

Spike is already evil...hello???

[The Godfather]

calistaflag: I think that's the rub though..Spike has never NOT been evil. He's been leashed. Why would he go to get the chip out? Buffy has already rejected him? So he's going to get the chip out to become even weaker? He's already not happy with how soft he has become. The only thing he can't do now is hurt humans and kill them..

And I for one hope that if next season has a redemptive theme..it's Wills. I've already seen two seasons dedicated to Spike. I'd like to see the return of the main trio of the show. Buffy, Wills and Xan. That scene were they all hugged in this last ep was probably one of the best of the season.

I'm also guessing that next season won't be half as heavy as this one has been. We could use a little light..

-Shawn

[xita]

Spike is already evil. I think people forget that part. So it would be ok for Willow to be bad but not spike? yeah.. ok.

Shawn, I totally agree, redemption would be unique for Willow. But certainly she more than any of the others has a right to it.

[Sela]

quote:

---

Originally posted by magrat:

On a another note why is Willow always punished for her slightest mistake, yet Xander has never been punished for anything and that has been going on from season2.

Yes, magrat, and that's exactly why I think something's gonna happen with him. It's like the game, "Touch." You run around, trying to find someone to grab, so that you can say, "Touch, you're it," and then they have to run around and try to find someone to grab. Well, I think Marti and Joss just touched Xander's tuxedo lapel and went, "Hey, buddy, you're It."

[QUOTE]Being Britsh I have just watched "Gone" this week and one thing that did strike hasn't Willow got the diamond, you know the one the one that she told Xander had mystical quantum properties???????????!!!!

---

That's the thing about this whole season...there are sooo many mystical, magical, demon-y, technological possibilities. The problem lies in trying to wade through them and determine which ones, if any, are the most feasible.

quote:

---

If the worst does come to the worst and this is the end of Amber Benson on Buffy (I really really hope not) I would like to say thank you for all the hours of pleasure she has given me and wish her every luck for the future. Although with her talent she doesn't need it.

---

Completely agree with you here. Amber rocks! But I really, really, really want her to stay on Buffy. Still, if Amber did want to leave, I could think of a million better ways to send her off. This gunned down in cold blood thing is absolutely revolting!

--Sela

[This message has been edited by Sela (edited March 17, 2002).]quote:quote:

[Rally]

Well rumors and speculation abound and a lot of people want to think that a big reset will happen with everyone dead but Xander. Then Xander making a wish that sets things right. This would really in no way challenge Xander, and would be no reason why Anya would not still be alive, ableit still all demony.

The hard part would be if we find that Warren has made a wish that helps start the awful chain of events. Everyone is killed or incapacitated but Xander. Thus leaving Xander with a choice, destroy Anyanka's power center and set things back to "right", but killing Anya (if the rumors about her pendant being tied to her mortality hold up). Or let his love continue wreaking havoc at the expense of the lifes and well being of all his friends.

Now that would be a story arc for Xander, and make him finally have to pay for his choices.

------------------
No, please. I mean, tell me if I said something wrong otherwise I know I'll say it again. Probably often and in public.

[This message has been edited by Rally (edited March 17, 2002).]

[The Godfather]

Xita: She..more than any of the others..I can understand.

Think of last week. Will is SO commited to not using magic..that she didn't even try to save her own life with it. Something she surely could have done. But she didn't fall.

What breaks her is her love for Tara. It turns her stone cold black...that doesn't justify her actions but it certainly does not push her beyond redemption..

This is an act done in the name of love and revenge whereas should Spike call after being rejected again..his would be unforgivable..

Willows story echoes to the very heart of the show. She is one of the core three..her plight goes to the soul of Xan and Buffy...whereas Spike ONLY affects Buffy...

-Shawn

[Ari]

Here's an interesting thought. What's Willow going to do after she gets rid of Warren? She'll be grieving, irrational, and only wanting to find a way to bring Tara back.

It would be an interesting set up to the sacrifice/reversal climax if Will actually did try to turn back time herself and stop it. That could be how she finally loses control of her power, by trying to do something which is beyond even her newfound abilities.

Ari

[calistafigg]

Shawn, If season seven has a redemption theme, as it probably will, why can't both Wills and Spike go though it.

It's quite a few peoples belief that seasons five six and seven all can be combined into one long story. I think this is true due to the lack of proper "arc" in the last two seasons. I think if were to see any sort of resolve in Willow's use of magic it will happen in the next season rather than this one. There is too much to fit into the last two episodes.

But that's just my opinion.

c

[This message has been edited by calistafigg (edited March 17, 2002).]

[Willowlicious]

I just woke up from a miserable nap. Lots of tossing and turning and lucid dreaming. Anyway, an image from Tabula Rasa popped into my brain. It probably means nothing, but you could conceivably place it in the "foreshadowing" category.

Isn't it rather interesting that just before the spell ends, Giles, the one who leaves at the beginning of the season, is kissing Anya, who may be leaving at the end of the season? Judas kiss, anyone?

And someone mentioned this days ago, but I wanted to say that I also find it interesting that Anya is the only Scooby, sans Giles, who is missing from the last Buffyverse shot in "Normal Again." Everyone else is present: Buffy, Dawn, Xander, Willow and TARA. Spike isn't present, but you can argue that Spike isn't a Scooby.

Anyway, just the workings of my tired, insomniac brain. Help!

Amy

[Warduke]

Why would Spike even want redemption?

He's a soulless vampire, he doesn't believe any of what he's done is wrong, all the killing, all the bad things, he doesn't regret any of it, why would he? He has no soul.

He needs no redemtion because he doesn't want it.

[The Godfather]

Because one redemption tale is hard enough to tell..much less two.

Spike doesn't have a connection to the rest of the cast whereas Willow does. The writers would have to spend time explaining and justifying how a soul-less demon can make an attempt at redemption when they've been telling us for six years that it is impossible. It's a lot of effort and it seems to me that ones of the tales would suffer.

And as Warduke just showed, over three seasons of Spike chipped..he hasn't showed even the beginnings of remorse or care about any of his past actions.

Also, just me but I don't want another season weighed down in pain and agony. I'd like to see some people finally enjoying their lives..

And I'd like to see a vampire lord/master again. Return to the roots of the show. ANGEL is about redemption. BUFFY is about life.

JMO,
Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]

[Web Warlock]

Where I am sitting, if Willow goes after Warren and kills him in the most horrible way possible, then I'll fine with that. No need to redeem.

I would be upset if Willow DIDN'T go after Warren. He murdered her love.

And if Buffy holds Willow back this time, it better be because she wants to get a bigger axe to join the carnage.

This is no comparing this situation to ANYTHING Angel/Angeleus, Spike, or Faith have done. In those cases they were all premeditated calculated murder.

I don't get why people can sit there and tell me Spike is redeemed (he isn't, he is impotent) but wonder if Willow can be? What sort of insane troll logic is that?

Warlock.

------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
"And remember, if you hurt her, I will beat you to death with a shovel.
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend." - Willow.

[Willowhand]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Willowlicious:

And someone mentioned this days ago, but I wanted to say that I also find it interesting that Anya is the only Scooby, sans Giles, who is missing from the last Buffyverse shot in "Normal Again."

---

Yeah. That might mean something. Also...everyone except Anya went upstairs to comfort Dawn in "Older And Far Away".
quote: