General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 10

[calistafigg]

Wow, after lurking here for about a month, I have finally registered and am posting! Yay me!

Firsty, I would just like to say how gutted I was when I found out that Tara was going to die at the end of the season. But there have been a lot of things that have troubled me, most of which have already been posted by various people on this thread, but I’d just like to add my "two-penneth" to the conversation.

I know pretty much everyone hasn’t liked what Tensai wrote on spoiler slayer on Saturday, but I can sort of see what he was trying to say. I’m not saying that I agree with everything he said, because not even Joss would bring in a new character, and keep it there for that long, just to build another’s storyline. What he said was only his opinions, you don’t have to agree with it.

Someone has already spoken about the gun being used… do we know for certain that Warren uses a gun? BBOvenGuy, perhaps you can help me out with this one. I just don’t like it… It seems all too real. From Glory to the nerd trio, from dimensional portholes to guns, it sort of makes sense (and ties in with "Normal Again", but I don’t like the idea of it.

Finally, I would hate for there to be a reset/reversal storyline in the last two episodes, all the characters have progressed so far and it just seems a shame, you know? I would hate for Tara to be a guide figure for Buffy, but I would love her to be brought back, somehow. It is such a shame to lose her when she has developed so much over the last few seasons.

Thanks for listening,

 

[This message has been edited by calistafigg (edited March 17, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited March 17, 2002).]

[Katie]

I found this posting by Angel X on the Cross & Stake:

"He doesn't kill her purposely and actually doesn't even find out about Tara until very late in ep 20."

Can we assume from this that he is shooting from outside the house? I always assumed that he went into the house but with this being Warren, I suppose he has to take the extra extra cowardly way. Willow goes after him, only then he finds out he hasn't killed Buffy?

Obviously Angel X knows more than she posts, am I not familiar with her spoilage, does she have the scripts?

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What can't we face if we're together?

[morgan1707]

I don't think Oz will come back next Season. Seth has made his feelings on the show perfectly clear, and I doubt he will return, even for one or two episodes.

Yeah, it does sound like Wanda talking. All we needed was for them to say "boob-tubers" and then we know that poster's true identity really is...

[Sela]

I think it's important to note that there is a difference between a reset button and a reversal, at least in my eyes. A reset button would indeed null the entire season and whatever character developments have occurred. A reversal, I believe, is more specific to the events that lead to Tara's death, which I imagine would begin in Episode 18. A reversal would not nullify character development, it would simply alter one specific action, taken by Anya, Dawn, Spike, whomever, and that, in turn, would change the course and hopefully, Tara's fate.

In actuality, I don't care which one is used, though I prefer the reversal. I just want my Tara back.

--Sela

[Jen/jennpurr]

Hey Kitties,

What keeps giving me hope is Tara's beautiful song to Willow in OMWF, "I'm under your spell." I still think there is something more to that. Maybe there's a hint in there. "You make me complete," Maybe that is a hint. I don't know. It's pure speculation on my part.

As others have said, I think the clues are out there, we just haven't found them yet. I'm trying to keep the faith and stay positive. I just don't think Joss would get our girls back together, and then kill off Tara permanently.

I want to hop on the bus, can someone pick me up?

Jen

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Tara: I am, you know
Willow: What?
Tara: Yours

[This message has been edited by Jen/jennpurr (edited March 17, 2002).]

[Robin]

If the wtiters really have decided to turn back time somehow, it's necessary that the characters remember what happened to each of them in order to learn from their experiences. If not this scenario wouldn't make sense to me. The viewers knew what might happen in advance.....but I don't think this would work.
At least one of them had to remember, so she/he could tell the others about it.
Or the videocameras from the nerds are still working and they could look at their actions, but somehow this idea sounds stupid in my own ears.

[pinkycat]

Hi, I'm a newbie also. I have been lurking for months, and I don't have to tell anyone here how upset I am about the spoilers that Tara dies, and that Willow is the BB.

Someone save me a seat on the Don't Give Up Hope bus please.

I have been thinking about the spoilers since last weekend. I may be in complete denial, but I think that what we have been hearing may be true, and not true at the same time.

I can believe that Tara gets shot, I can also believe that she may "die" momentarily, before she is revived in a hospital. Since I heard on one of the spoiler sites that Tara is shot in 19, but dies in 20 I am assuming she is taken to a hospital.

I can believe that Willow goes ballistic when she finds Tara, I can also believe that if she thinks Tara is dead she will hunt down Warren. Willow only has to "think" Tara is dead for her to go after Warren. Maybe Buffy and Xander are chasing after to tell her that Tara isn't dead.

Well, that was my emotional rant, here comes the logical one.

The only purpose for Tara's death is to push Willow over the edge. But why would they do that, to have Willow be the BB? BBs try to destroy the world, not revenge thier SOs death.

I have heard a lot of rumors and speculation about hitting a "reset" button. If that happens no one will have learned anything, all of season six will have been meaningless.

I also have a hard time believing that ME would let the BB and BSD info out so easily. Spoilers have been "coming out of the woodwork" latley.

There has been just too much info.

Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[calistafigg]

Ooooh, just had brainwave!! Maybe Anya goes to Willow, or Buffy, or anyone, and makes them wish that Tara is still alive. Could that work?

Ever hopeful,

c

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 17, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by calistafigg (edited March 17, 2002).]

[Ari]

If there is a wish/reversal, it'll have to center around 19.

Which makes the title Seeing Red very interesting, because it implies serious anger and because of that maybe an action taken in serious anger. It can't be talking about Will because she won't find out about Tara until 20. She'll still be busy having makeup sex in 19. We have some idea about what Spike'll be doing. That pretty much leaves Anya, who had been pretty upset and already trying to curse Xander to begin with.

But seriously, what is the purpose of having Anya go demony again if there isn't a wish granted? That's pretty much the whole point of her demon gig.

Ari

[The Godfather]

Let's keep in mind that last year we knew EXACTLY how the finale turned out. Who died and how..

ME isn't so great at keeping secrets anymore..

-Shawn

[calistafigg]

Yes! Exactly… and then everything is resolved, Willow and Tara are back together, ratings are still high, and everyone is happy!

c

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 17, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by calistafigg (edited March 17, 2002).]

[pinkycat]

Let's keep in mind that last year we knew EXACTLY how the finale turned out. Who died and how..
ME isn't so great at keeping secrets anymore..

-Shawn

Hi Shawn, last year I think they wanted everyone to know how things turned out.

I read about Buffy dying in USA Today last year, switching networks and even about her coming back. I wasn't even BTVS fan then, thats what starting me watching.

[Ari]

I tend to think that the trick of the whole wish thing would be that the Scoobies themselves wouldn't know for a while, or maybe at all, that a wish had been granted.

Also, when Anya starts realizing the effects of the wish, I imagine she's going to head for the hills. There have been a few notable mentions of her fondness for running away this season, including the duet.

As for anyone remembering, I tend to doubt it. If this is something that's going to lead to all of their hideous deaths, then I can't see where remembering would be particularly helpful. And that always leaves open the possiblity of finding out something about it at some point next season.

In the end, the only important lesson learned would be Anya's (her mistake, her responsibility, her lesson). And in the sacrifice scenerio, remembering would be kind of a moot point.

Ari

[Rally]

quote:

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Originally posted by Katie:
I found this posting by Angel X on the Cross & Stake:

"He doesn't kill her purposely and actually doesn't even find out about Tara until very late in ep 20."

Can we assume from this that he is shooting from outside the house? I always assumed that he went into the house but with this being Warren, I suppose he has to take the extra extra cowardly way. Willow goes after him, only then he finds out he hasn't killed Buffy?

Obviously Angel X knows more than she posts, am I not familiar with her spoilage, does she have the scripts?

---

Yes AngelX does know more than what she posts. From what I have heard, I also assumed that Warren was shooting from outside the house. The impression I was given was that Tara is struck by a stray bullet that comes in though the bedroom window.

Also as far as our girls, remember, they alwways know how to find one another.

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No, please. I mean, tell me if I said something wrong otherwise I know I'll say it again. Probably often and in public.quote:

[pinkycat]

"That pretty much leaves Anya, who had been pretty upset and already trying to curse Xander to begin with."

But she ends up powerless to curse him.

Hi Ari, I really wish (no pun intended) that everything that happens could be reversed by a wish, but if that happens would the characters learn anything?

If this season is really about growing up, then the characters have to learn that there are no "do overs". Thats for kids in a school yard.

The Nerds of Doom tried to take the esay way out by using magic, and technology to get what they wanted. They took the easy way, growing up means that you have to work to get what you want.

[The Godfather]

Pinkycat: However the writers didn't tell everyone. Wanda spilled the first bag and then everything else came out and suddenly everyone knew..

I don't believe the "they wanted us to know" thing..I think they just can't keep a lid on their spoilers..

And I think we can't just erase everything that happens. Decisions are made..now consequences have to be dealt with. This show has been skidding those for too long..now they have to be addressed...one way or the other.

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]

[Ari]

pinkycat,

The whole wish/sacrifice scenerio is really all about Anya. It would mean that the entire last arc is all essentially a set up to put her into a certain situation with the chance to make a sacrifice and undo what she has done, giving up her own life in the process.

That's a fitting, symbolic end for her character given the way she was introduced, and the type of send off I would expect for the permanent death of a Scooby.

Certainly more fitting than an accidental gunshot which is notable only in it's pointlessness.

Also, we know she hasn't successfully tricked anyone else into cursing him in 18. That doesn't mean that she might not find another place to try in 19.

Ari

[pinkycat]

Pinkycat: However the writers didn't tell everyone. Wanda spilled the first bag and then everything else came out and suddenly everyone knew..
I don't believe the "they wanted us to know" thing..I think they just can't keep a lid on their spoilers..

-Shawn

Hi Shawn, what you said is possible.

But if Wanda did spill the beans last year, do you think ME would let it happen again?

I read about what happens on BTVS in USA Today two weeks before it happened.

Personally, I think it was just a marketing ploy.

Hey, I could be wrong...we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

By the way Shawn, call me Sue

"The whole wish/sacrifice scenerio is really all about Anya. It would mean that the entire last arc is all essentially a set up to put her into a certain situation with the chance to make a sacrifice and undo what she has done, giving up her own life in the process."

Hi Ari, I agree, we have been set up for a "demon wish". Last week I was certain thats what was going to happen.

We were also set up for a "Warren messes with Spike's chip" scenario. According to the spoilers thats not going to happen. It seems like that was a "red herring".

Call me parnoid, but I started to wonder if Anya/Halfrek "demon wish granters" was a "red herring" too.

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited March 17, 2002).]

[Daydreams*]

Hi all.
One way to find out about Tara/Amber does anyone here no if Amber is signed up for SEASON SEVEN?

I have not read anything that confirms that she is leaving the show.

It my be naive of me to ask, as I have never posted anything like this.

Hoping for a happy ending or at least a sign that season 7 is going to be worth watching for Tara/Willow snuggles.

daydreams

[morgan1707]

Even if the whole last arc of this Season reverts back to Anya and her powers, it won't kill her - this is going on the notion of what happened with her powers last time. She can reverse the wishes she granted, but will just end up powerless as a result.

I hope that's how it turns out because I don't want anyone to die; it's just pointless.

[bzengo]

The majority of these spoilers all came out at the same time, and from multiple sources.

Then you've got Amber talking about filming a naked love scene.

Now I guess you could say its simply that we're getting information as the shows get filmed, but this smells to me more like classic ME misdirection, getting us all looking at the shiny object in their right hand, while they pull the rug out with the left.

The line from Sam about how people using dark magics, going poof, is one of many things which seals things for me. That and Amber laughing about the question of who the BSD is, with "Its not Xander."

I think everyone is going to die or be wounded, and at the end, we'll get Anya doing a reset, thus taking accountability for her whole history.

Stictly from a ratings point of view, ME is just not going to - nor would UPN let them - destroy Willow, their second leading lady, who is in many respects, as popular with most fans as is Buffy. Same thing goes for Tara, which would cost them Kittens everywhere. The drop in ratings from this storyline is too great to be tolerated, thus there MUST be a way out.

We're going to get a reset - I'm not even worked up about it any more.

I do however resent ME for making us watch this - I don't see what the purpose is in making me watch the killing of someone I love, simply as a plot device. And I can't get that any lesson they want to teach me is worth what they're putting me through.

None the less, I have no doubt that in the end we're going to be okay with both Willow and Tara together and alive. This assessment is no longer grounded in my trust for Joss (which has been greatly tested and strained.) No, I ground my assessment that we will get a reset in business sense; ME simply has too much at stake to do it any other way.

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bzengo

Joss I love invoking all those (old horror) movies, but at the same time, the core of this series, emotionally, is a very safe place.

Joss (Sun Aug 30, 1998)
. . . Sooooo, someone is hoping this season will be less traumatic? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[The Godfather]

Sue: I honestly don't think ME has any control over their spoiler factory right now.

During season 3, a fax got into my hands that talked about spoiler control. Using carbon paper..ect. It didn't help. It hasn't. It's only gotten worse.

Sources can be anything from the steady extra pool(about 5-7 people), to grips and PAs. It's REALLY hard to narrow it down and most people who find a good source aren't as a general rule willing to out them.

Make no mistake..the writers DON'T want us to know these things but we do. Everyone assumed that the B/S catwalk scene in DT had to be false because it was grotesque and we all knew about it in advance. So it had to be planted. But it wasn't. I just don't think ME is that crafty. I think they are assuming that general fan paranoia will continue to allow them the element of surprise.

Also, only about 20-30 percent of the audience is on the net so they still keep MOST of that element..

As for the part about losing fans and ratings: Everytime someone is said to die..that major fangroup insists that their loss will tank the ratings. But it's just not true. The show can absorb the loss of ANY character (yes..even Spike) as long as the stories continue strong.

Case in point: Angel.

At the time he left..he was the most popular character on the show. But the ratings held strong. Until the Riley debacle started and then they began to slide. It's storytelling not characters that bring ratings. This season has had B/S(which the Spikers mistakenly believe is a ratings boon) and the ratings have collapsed. Why? Because the story has been horrendous and counter to everything that the fans of the show want. No one recognizes any of these characters anymore...

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]

[BBOvenGuy]

Whew! The spoiler discussion continues... Let me see if I can catch up.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stellasurya:
There was a post today at Bronze Beta from s/o called 'Guess what' (Sun Mar 17 02:53 saying:

Just heard Marti Noxon has confermed Seth Green has signed a contract to do 2 eps in season 7

good huh?

Anyone here know anything about this?

---

Oh, absolutely it's confirmed! It's every bit as confirmed as the contract he signed to do a couple of episodes this year, and also as confirmed as the contract he signed to do a couple of episodes last year.

Seriously, the last time I saw an interview with Seth where he talked about Buffy, he said no one from Mutant Enemy had talked to him in months, and he wasn't the least bit broken up about it. Seth has moved on and is trying to take care of moving his career forward, and I say more power to him with that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Godfather:
As for Will's and redemption... well then it all depends on whether she stops herself. Also, of extreme importance... who Willow kills is a MURDERER himself... it's hardly an innocent. It's not ok. It's not alright but it's also not unforgivable. It's a crime of passion and in a court of law... the insanity defense would be used in a heartbeat.

---

I'm not so sure about that. We saw in "The Gift" last year that heroes are held to a higher standard. Buffy couldn't kill Ben, but Giles could. Which category does Willow fall into? She may even spend some time asking herself that.

I'm going to have to wait until the episode airs to see how it plays (assuming I still want to watch Buffy by then). My initial gut-reaction, though, is that Willow will go beyond the point of redemption if she kills Warren. It's possible, though, that if there's a reset it would bring Warren back to life as well, and given a second chance with memories of what happened before, Willow would help capture Warren and put him in jail rather than kill him. That would redeem her for me.

quote:

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Originally posted by calistafigg:
do we know for certain that Warren uses a gun? BBOvenGuy, perhaps you can help me out with this one. I just don’t like it… It seems all too real.

---

I'm as in the dark as anybody else. AnGeL X is the one who said it was a gun. I'm inclined to believe it. Warren is becoming an example of just how horrifying a "regular guy" can be, so why wouldn't he use the weapon a "regular guy" would use?

quote:

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Originally posted by The Godfather:
Let's keep in mind that last year we knew EXACTLY how the finale turned out. Who died and how..

ME isn't so great at keeping secrets anymore..

---

AnGeL X also knew the Season 4 finale well in advance. I think we've got a good chance of finding out what happens in the final two episodes well before they air.

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited March 17, 2002).]quote:quote:quote:quote:

[Ari]

One more thought about the notion of consequences and all that.

The choices people made in the wishverse would have consequences - in the wishverse.

Warren shoots Tara, pays the price at Willow's hands. Will goes DarkMagick and probably pays the price by going snap, crackle, poof.

Now what is the purpose of Will remembering anything about that? So that she would know what the consequences of the power are? She knows that already. Sam told her. So that she would know what it feels like to lose Tara? To what end?

She'll pay the price for her mistakes in the reality where she makes them.

Ari

[Willowhand]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
I think we've got a good chance of finding out what happens in the final too episodes well before they air.

---

I hope so. I just cannot stand this not knowing. I really didn't want to ruin the finale for myself, but I need to know...at least, that way, if Tara does end up surviving, I can actually enjoy W/T goodness in 18 and 19...if we find out by then. By the way..does anyone know the exact date that 18 is going to air? Isn't it a month or so from now?

quote:

[Sela]

The writers love pain! They love to inflict it, they love to exploit it, they love to intensify it. And no character is immune (and I mean the core scoobies, of course). Buffy lost Angel, Joyce, and herself. Willow lost Oz and now Tara (kinda twice). Giles lost Jenny. So who's left? That's right...Xander. Unfortunately, his time has come. The most suffering he's experienced has been the wedding. That's nothing compared to the classic Whedonian pain! So, hell, yeah, I'm jumping on the vengeance demon bandwagon. Xander and Anya really have had the least to do this season. Sure, we knew they were experiencing anxiety, but that was pretty much it. That's because they were slowly building the story up.

The whole vengeance demon thing has been simmering on the backburner for a couple of seasons now, and the end of this season is going to show the culmination of all that. I doubt that it would be a red herring. If anything is going to be a diversionary tactic, it just has to be Tara's death. Now, if you ask me, THAT'S what I call build up.

I just feel very strongly that Anya has a very prominent role in this whole thing--like she's the only one who can undo what has happened. I may be absolutely wrong, but it's what I feel.

There's also Dawn, who I think could aid in this reversal. She has an established link to Halfrek. I don't know if Halfrek will return, but it's important to note that Halfrek has a connection with Anya, Dawn, and Spike. It could be nothing, but why else would you spend two or three episodes developing a character like that? And the fact that she's a vengeance demon just makes me positive that ANYTHING is possible, and that Dawn could very well play a part.

There's so many vengeance demons and so little time...

--Sela

[pinkycat]

Sue: I honestly don't think ME has any control over their spoiler factory right now.

Hi Shawn, it may be that the spoiler factory has taken on a life of its own.

What a ride, I don't know what to believe? But then again should I believe anything or should I believe everything?

I think I have to ponder again.

[The Godfather]

Sue: I'd believe that if not for the fact that Michelle and Wendy have been SO accurate this season. Also, they're not alarmist..both are of sound reputation.

I have issues with that then. We've seen Spike murder a teacher for no reason beyond pleasure. We've seen him kill two Slayers and attempt to kill Will. We've seen him murder a shopkeeper. Thus if one killing pushes Will beyond redemption..then Spike should be staked yesterday.

Heroes ARE held to a higher standard but Angel got away with killing all those lawyers because well..TPTB were ok with it. Same thing..viciously bad people..

I just..well I have issues with selective redemption in that matter. Spike at least lacks a soul. But Will would be no different than Faith..and if Faith can be on the road(redemption is an everyday process..you're never there until your tale is told IMO) to it..so then again can Will(eventually).

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 17, 2002).]

[calistafigg]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sela:
I just feel very strongly that Anya has a very prominent role in this whole thing--like she's the only one who can undo what has happened. I may be absolutely wrong, but it's what I feel.

---

I'm with you on this, but I would hate to see something bad happen to Anya...

c

quote:

[Dice]

An overlooked possibility is the nerd herd itself. All season they have been about illusion and misdirection--not violence. We've regularly seen them play with time. Jonathan once cast a glamor strong enough to have everyone believing he was a universal superhero. I have no reaasonable idea how this might work out. But given ME's penchant for misdirection, perhaps we might look to Jonathan, Andrew, and perhaps even Warren--if we accept a familiar ME truism that evil is its own undoing.

And kitties--please accept the best wishes of an occasional poster who also sorrows over the recent turns of the story line, and wants the girls happily in bed forever.